daniels changed the topic of #freedesktop to: https://www.freedesktop.org infrastructure and online services || for questions about freedesktop.org projects, please see each project's contact || for discussions about specifications, please use https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xdg or xdg@lists.freedesktop.org
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<purpleidea>
Hi folks, I embarrassingly forgot which email address I used for my gitlab account: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/purpleidea is there someway I can get sent a password request email? Either that or email sending thing is not working. Thank you!
<purpleidea>
s/request/reset/
<purpleidea>
And for completeness, I'm the author of https://github.com/purpleidea/mgmt/ and Red Hat used to host our mailing list, but they migrated to google, and it locks out non-Red Hat employees, and so I'd like to use my gitlab account to request if you'd be willing to let me host our mailing list here. Thank you!
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<svuorela>
apparantly fdo mailman modifies enough of the headers (e.g. subject) by default to break the dmarc/spf/dkim/...whatever signatures. Is it something we can get disabled centrally ?
<emersion>
i've tried to do that a year ago or something
<emersion>
maybe some ML admins changed it back?
<emersion>
what is the ML?
<svuorela>
this is poppler mail list
<svuorela>
but I'm told (by my friendly KDE sysadmins) that it can be disabled centrally
<emersion>
the only way i've found to disable centrally is to run a script which updates each ML config one by one
<emersion>
yeah haven't found a way to do this centrally
<emersion>
include_sender_header=False will break DMARC alignment checks IIRC
<emersion>
rest looks fine
<emersion>
more specifically, include_sender_header=False would break SPF alignment checks in DMARC
<svuorela>
looping around the configs is apparantly the way of doing it.
<svuorela>
ONce in a while, I wonder if "big foss sysadmin teams" should have a communicate-with-each-other-better meetup somewhere :)
<emersion>
seems like poppler sets a subject prefix
<emersion>
running a script to disable that
<emersion>
all done, should be better now
<svuorela>
thanks
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<daniels>
emersion: given that Mailman 2 is ever-more unsustainable and Mailman 3 seems like the worst of all possible worlds - did you ever look at mlmmj?
<emersion>
i didn't know about it, but the last commit in 2017 doesn't fill me with confidence
<daniels>
emersion: so am I right to think that to use srht lists you need srht meta set up, and srht meta only exports oauth (i.e. you can authenticate an external service using srht meta as the identity provider) but doesn't import it (i.e. you can't authenticate to srht meta using another service's oauth)?
<emersion>
sent an email to konstantin to ask questions about their setup
<daniels>
ok, so 'Warning: A working meta.sr.ht installation is a basic requirement of running any other sr.ht service.' answers one of my questions :D
<emersion>
if we were to use lists.sr.ht, we wouldn't really use the account part of it
<emersion>
we'd have to run a meta.sr.ht instance, but only used by list admins
<emersion>
note that i don't think that lists.sr.ht is as-in in a shape usable for us
<daniels>
oh?
<emersion>
it's missing moderation features, missing a way to setup the ML addresses so that existing MLs continue to work fine
<emersion>
(currently it assumes they are "owner/name@domain")
<daniels>
ahh ok, gotcha - I think moderation would be the big one
<emersion>
and ideally it'd have external oauth so that everything is tied to gitlab
<emersion>
but that's for bonus points
<emersion>
yeah
<daniels>
I don't have any numbers whatsoever to back this up but gut feel tells me there are a _lot_ of non-member posts, but also opening it up to be a relay for all non-member posts with no moderation is definitely not an option either
<emersion>
if there is interest, i'm pretty sure i could get it into the shape we need, totally prepared to sink a lot of time into this
<emersion>
but also let's see what our other possible options are
<emersion>
yeah we get so much spam, good moderation tools are very important for us
<emersion>
although can confirm that blockng HTML is also what we do on lists.sr.ht and it's super effective
<emersion>
spamassassin is something we could do as well
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<pinchartl>
emersion: I'm also considering moving away from mailman2, and pondering what the best option is between mailman3 and mlmmj. mailman3 is quite a complex beast, I've installed it on a small-scale deployement for internal lists, and it was painful to get right
<pinchartl>
I've fixed the archiver a few days ago, nowhere in the documentation was there any mention that additional steps were needed, so we ran without archives for several months
<emersion>
like going through the docs to create a new mailing list… you need to run a command (ok) and then edit the mail server config by hand…
<emersion>
and then add a crontab entry
<emersion>
etc
<pinchartl>
quite manual indeed
<emersion>
maybe some of this is generalizable
<emersion>
like, maybe the script could >> to the postfix config or something
<emersion>
but still not ideal
<pinchartl>
it's fine for kernel.org I suppose, adding new lists is a relatively infrequent operation, and can be handled by an admin
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<emersion>
i suppose we don't add lists everyday on fdo either
<emersion>
but it happens from time to time
<purpleidea>
mupuf: much appreciated! /hacker-voice "i'm in!"
<mupuf>
purpleidea: ha ha
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<eric_engestrom>
vsyrjala: when you type a command you can click "preview" at the top of the comment box, and it will tell you at the bottom the commands that are to be executed
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<vsyrjala>
yeah, i use that to verify eg. that i typed the username/bug number correctly (because the autocomplete is 99% useless). but it didn't do anything for the /move path (ie. whether the path was correct or not it looked the same in the preview)
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<eric_engestrom>
ah ok; I've never tried with /move
<eric_engestrom>
might be worth raising an issue upstream about that if you have the motivation :)
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<purpleidea>
(New mailing list request.)
<daniels>
purpleidea: my reflexive reaction to that is that we wouldn't take it, sorry - not only is the Puppet/Chef/Ansible/etc world very disjoint from ours, but we also don't really like taking on parts of projects
<daniels>
pragmatically speaking, if projects are fully a part of fd.o, then we can expect some buy-in and support from them; if projects (and I'm not at all accusing you of bad faith here) are just offloading the really shitty parts of hosting to us whilst keeping the nicer parts elsewhere, then we get all of the administrative pain of trying to keep those services alive, with none of the benefit of expecting any assistance or support
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<pinchartl>
daniels: by assistance and support, do you mean financial support ?
<pinchartl>
(or giving developer time to help with sysadmin, time is money I suppose)
<daniels>
pinchartl: not really financial (the only revenue stream the X.Org Foundation has is XDC sponsorship, which is implicitly understood by all the sponsors to be keeping fd.o's lights on), but hands-on time and effort, putting us in touch with contacts, spreading awareness, etc
<pinchartl>
sounds fair to me
<pinchartl>
I'm not sure if libcamera can help (yet), but if you think about something we could do, please let me know
<daniels>
but if the project's real home is elsewhere, and we're just the only people who will agree to run an SMTP amplifier, then we don't get any of those benefits, but we do get all of the headaches of trying to run one of the most hated services on the internet
<pinchartl>
(I can't promise hands-on time at the very moment though, that's a very very scarce resource right now :-S)
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<pinchartl>
makes sense
<daniels>
pinchartl: quit messing around and just make the perfect camera API which works everywhere, then dedicate the rest of your life to becoming a sysadmin as well as someone who can help do organisational-administrative duties
<pinchartl>
for libcamera it's going the other way around, we're running our own SMTP amplifier, it's "only" the CI that we're moving to fd.o at the moment
<daniels>
that's the main part :)
<pinchartl>
making a perfect camera API and then dedicating the rest of my life... do you expect me to live to 150yo ? :-)
<daniels>
surely you could do it in 3 weeks if you really wanted to, I mean how hard could it possibly be?
<purpleidea>
daniels: I understand your concerns. I think we're a good and small "worth it" community, and I hope you can consider it. TBQH, I don't have any backup plan for the mailing list. I thought this might be a good home.
<purpleidea>
daniels: And we're very different than the puppet/ansible/etc world, and trying to prove it.
<purpleidea>
If you want more convincing, I can show you our new desktop provisioning tool! It will be at FOSDEM as well.
<daniels>
purpleidea: please don't get me wrong, it's nothing against your community or you personally. and I empathise with the difficulty of finding list hosting! we have kept pretty strongly to the all-or-nothing ethos for the past few years though, and that's been informed by past experience
<pinchartl>
daniels: sure. how hard can running fd.o possibly be either, right ? :-)
<daniels>
ime, no-one's really happy when we're just an arm's-length SMTP proxy
<purpleidea>
daniels: Yeah I understand! In any case, if you can make an exception and let us in for mailing list usage, I'd appreciate it.
<daniels>
but FOSDEM sounds nice, I'll be there. just look for pinchartl, and I'll be the guy standing next to him asking why it's not done yet.
<purpleidea>
daniels: I'm also not against moving more of the project there, but one step at a time.
<purpleidea>
haha
<pinchartl>
purpleidea: how many subscribers do you have on your list ?
<purpleidea>
daniels: mgmt has been long over due to a 0.1 release. But getting very close.
<daniels>
pinchartl: all you have to do is answer requests on ports 22, 25, and 443. not rocket science.
<pinchartl>
dcbaker: speaking of FOSDEM, will you be there ?
<daniels>
purpleidea: nice, good luck with it :)
<purpleidea>
pinchartl: 59 subscribers including myself.
<pinchartl>
purpleidea: I wouldn't necessarily push you in that direction, but self-hosting a mail server would be an option then. it's "fun" for some definition of fun. you would certainly learn a lot :-)
<purpleidea>
daniels: Oh, I just realized you're the famous Daniel Stone!
<purpleidea>
pinchartl: Yeah, we won't self-host because we'd just always get our emails sent to people's spam. But we'd be willing to write an automation module for your mail server management!
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<pinchartl>
the libcamera mailing list is self-hosted, and these days mails get delivered more or less fine
<purpleidea>
(I've been following graphics work on Linux for a long while, but I am not smart enough to hack that kind of C)
<pinchartl>
there are occasional hickups
<purpleidea>
pinchartl: I'd love to honestly, but I only have so many cycles. I'd much prefer being here than on google groups :/
<daniels>
purpleidea: I'm not either, but if you find a niche early enough, no-one will complain that you're there
<purpleidea>
haha
<daniels>
pinchartl is completely on the money though - if you only have a small number of subscribers and limited traffic, running your own off a service like OSUOSL is completely practical
<purpleidea>
(one of my side projects has been trying to play with rpi and gstreamer... it's not going as well as I hoped. but working on it!)
<pinchartl>
like with gandi.net giving us a single IPv6 address without a full block. we ended up on spam lists once because gandi gave another address in the same block to a rogue server
<daniels>
our issue is that we try to deliver enough traffic to be very noticeable, but not enough traffic to have the world bend to our will (or the resources to do the things we want)
<daniels>
(even if you do deliver enough traffic for every SMTP admin to know who you are, even vger don't get exemptions made for them, and their delivery rate to Google in particular is absolutely appalling)
<pinchartl>
daniels: I like how Konstantin recently said that people should move away from @gmail.com if they want to do kernel development. that's better than the world bending to his will, it's telling the world that the Linux kernel is more important than the whole of google :-)
<daniels>
pinchartl: yeah, that's always been my position. I don't love that two players are in control of the world's delivery, but last I looked, >75% of fd.o's outbound delivery was to Google+O365
<daniels>
and I mean, we're a massive bizzare outlier in SMTP delivery, because there are very few sites who would deliver more email to weird self-hosted sites
<daniels>
sr.ht would be one of the few
<pinchartl>
everybody should self-host, really :-)
<daniels>
so even though I don't like it, I don't want to be out there telling people that they can't contribute unless they get rid of GMail and pay for a VPS at a provider which will accept incoming connections on port 25
<pinchartl>
I think people shouldn't be allowed to use e-mail unless they know how to send a mail from a telnet client
<pinchartl>
(without encryption in that case, I don't want to set the bar too high)
<airlied>
EHLO
<pinchartl>
:-)
<pinchartl>
I remember the days in uni where the computer lab had NT4 machines that were severely locked down
<pinchartl>
no way to install an IRC client
<pinchartl>
but there was a telnet client
<pinchartl>
it doesn't make the IRC experience great, but it was doable
<airlied>
I wonder when the last time I actually sent a mail with telnet, it's been a while
<daniels>
I can’t wait for this discussion to seamlessly pivot into wondering why we don’t have a wider contributor base :P
<pinchartl>
:-D
<pinchartl>
daniels: if we catch a few drinks at FOSDEM I'll tell you about my grand plans to fix all this git forges nonsense
<pinchartl>
it will require quite a few drinks probably
<daniels>
we will, and I look forward to it making sense around 4am :)
<pinchartl>
:-)
<daniels>
tbf emersion can fly the flag for decentralised email-centric forges as well
<dcbaker>
pinchartl: no :(
<pinchartl>
dcbaker: :-(
<daniels>
:(
<pinchartl>
how am I going to thank you for all your help with meson ?
<pinchartl>
elibrokeit: same question, will you be at FOSDEM by any chance ?
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* emersion
runs away
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<daniels>
emersion: no need to run!
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<dcbaker>
pinchartl: maybe next year I can convince someone to pay me and Xavier out to FOSDEM to talk about the Rust + Meson work we've been doing :). Or I'll finally take a sabatical and get Meson++ into a usable state, lol
<dcbaker>
*pay for me and Xavier to fly out
* dcbaker
wonders where his brain is
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<emersion>
Meson++?
<emersion>
is this a real thing that exists?
<pinchartl>
a rewrite of meson in C++ ? :-)
<emersion>
templates and macros and classes and concepts and constexpr added to the Meson language? :-)
<dcbaker>
Yeah, It's a C++ implementation of Meson I've been working on off and on. It's structured more like a compiler, using optimization passes to reduce the program as much as possible, then runs the remaining tests that require subprocesses all at once to maximize parallelism
<emersion>
may i ask why you haven't picked… Rust?
<dcbaker>
bootstrapping
<dcbaker>
Rust is really, really painful to bootstrap, Every distro ever has a working C++ compiler because you need G++ or Clang++ to build your C compiler anyway
<emersion>
right
<emersion>
reminds me of this Meson impl in C
<dcbaker>
Muon?
<emersion>
yeah
<emersion>
ideally at some point there will be a proper spec and a Rust compiler in GCC and then this issue goes away
<dcbaker>
It would be nice if gcc-rs took off
<dcbaker>
Lattis (the main muon) dev and I have traded a lot of notes on things
<emersion>
nice
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<elibrokeit>
pinchartl: it's an interesting idea but I'm not in Europe so I'd need an excuse to travel internationally just for this.