#asahi-re on 2021-01-15 — irc logs at oftc.irclog.whitequark.org

2021-01-11 09:52 marcan changed the topic of #asahi-re to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | Hardware / boot process / firmware interface reverse engineering | WARNING: this channel (only) may contain binary reverse engineering discussion | RE policy: https://alx.sh/re (MANDATORY READ) | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi-re

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02:37 <davidrysk[m]> https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/issues/2 -- isn't this explicitly forbidden by policy?

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02:41 <davidrysk[m]> TellowKrinkle: I see you're here ^^ see above :)

02:44 <TellowKrinkle[m]> Don't think it's explicitly forbidden but it's also definitely not explicitly not-forbidden

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02:45 <davidrysk[m]> Hm well you're not decompiling or disassembling their llvm

02:46 <TellowKrinkle[m]> It's linking against their dylib using the open source llvm headers

02:46 <TellowKrinkle[m]> It does use the list of exported symbols extracted from their dylib though

02:46 <davidrysk[m]> Yeah, marcan will have to comment on that

02:47 <davidrysk[m]> whether listing exported symbols counts as decompiling/disassembliong

02:48 <TellowKrinkle[m]> My biggest worry would be that it prints information from inside the dylib that isn't otherwise included in assembled object code

02:48 <TellowKrinkle[m]> If you just use the llc included as a means to assemble ir from an intel Mac I doubt it would be an issue

02:49 <TellowKrinkle[m]> (It prints the associated instruction metadata from llvm tablegen)

02:51 <TellowKrinkle[m]> (By it I mean the asmcheck program, not llc)

02:58 <TellowKrinkle[m]> Never mind looks like you don't need the symbol list, clang magically finds the dylib in the dyld cache, so we don't need the symbol list in the repo

03:00 <davidrysk[m]> the only reason you'd need the symbol list is to figure out which symbols to call, but if they're plain llvm symbols and you can use llvm headers...

03:02 <TellowKrinkle[m]> You do need to call the AGX2 target initialization functions, which are not part of the normal LLVM headers (since the public version has no AGX2 target)

03:03 <davidrysk[m]> yeah just run it by marcan if he doesn't see this

03:03 <davidrysk[m]> it might be totally ok

03:03 <TellowKrinkle[m]> I'm making a post on that issue right now

03:13 <TellowKrinkle[m]> Alright I posted it

03:25 <davidrysk[m]> cool :)

03:25 <davidrysk[m]> thanks!

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03:47 <TellowKrinkle[m]> For the instruction metadata, I think an equivalent question would be "if a GPU manufacturer included a JSON file in their gpu driver with a list of registers and instruction scheduling data, would it be okay to use that when developing your driver?"

03:47 <TellowKrinkle[m]> I'm going to guess probably not, but not sure

04:16 <mjg59> Probably jurisdiction dependent

04:17 <mjg59> You'd have some argument that under US law it's just a list of facts and so not copyrightable

04:17 <mjg59> But you're probably into speak to a lawyer territory

04:29 <marcan> I'm actually going to try to see if I can get a lawyer involved with us to answer questions like this

04:29 <marcan> I don't have a good answer personally

04:36 <davidrysk[m]> I expect this to be more a EULA/RE problem than a copyright problem

04:37 <davidrysk[m]> is linking and calling exported functions that follow the same effective API as LLVM in an Apple private framework in order to assemble LLVM IR into GPU-architecture code in violation of EULA

04:39 <davidrysk[m]> and, for marcan, the policy says "contributors must not disassemble or decompile userspace graphics driver binaries", but does this fall under that prohibition

04:39 <davidrysk[m]> one could argue that listing exported symbols and linking against the userspace graphics driver binaries is not disassembling or decompiling them

04:41 <marcan> on paper it does not, no

04:41 <marcan> disassembling and decompiling referse specifically to the actual object code

04:43 <marcan> my gut feeling is that this is okay; conversely, I don't think bloom needs this, so why go there. it would be nice to have a lawyer's opinion

04:43 <marcan> *refers

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