marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General project discussion | GitHub: | Wiki: | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs:
troseman has joined #asahi
troseman has joined #asahi
JusticeEX has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
JusticeEX has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
omoiti has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
omoiti has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
omoiti has joined #asahi
omoiti has joined #asahi
choozy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
choozy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
raster has quit [Quit: Gettin' stinky!]
raster has quit [Quit: Gettin' stinky!]
omoiti has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
omoiti has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
maor26 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
maor26 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Bublik has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Bublik has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
omoiti has joined #asahi
omoiti has joined #asahi
Bublik has joined #asahi
Bublik has joined #asahi
troseman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
troseman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<modwizcode> wait marcan you wrote the qemu xhci code? Heh
<modwizcode> wait marcan you wrote the qemu xhci code? Heh
phiologe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
phiologe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
phiologe has joined #asahi
phiologe has joined #asahi
marvin24 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
marvin24 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
marvin24 has joined #asahi
marvin24 has joined #asahi
odmir has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
odmir has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
arcsor5 has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
arcsor5 has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
JusticeEX has joined #asahi
JusticeEX has joined #asahi
TheJollyRoger has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
TheJollyRoger has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
JusticeEX has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
JusticeEX has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
omoiti has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
omoiti has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Gaelan_ is now known as Gaelan
Gaelan_ is now known as Gaelan
jeffmiw has joined #asahi
jeffmiw has joined #asahi
jeffmiw has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jeffmiw has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
qyousef has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
qyousef has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
qyousef has joined #asahi
qyousef has joined #asahi
_whitelogger_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_whitelogger_ has joined #asahi
_whitelogger_ has joined #asahi
VinDuv has joined #asahi
VinDuv has joined #asahi
ephe_meral has joined #asahi
ephe_meral has joined #asahi
maor26 has joined #asahi
maor26 has joined #asahi
JusticeEX has joined #asahi
JusticeEX has joined #asahi
Calchan has joined #asahi
Calchan has joined #asahi
m42uko has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
m42uko has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
m42uko has joined #asahi
m42uko has joined #asahi
PendulumSwinger has joined #asahi
PendulumSwinger has joined #asahi
kartikeya has joined #asahi
kartikeya has joined #asahi
kkd has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
kkd has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
kartikeya has quit [Changing host]
kartikeya has joined #asahi
kartikeya has joined #asahi
kartikeya has quit [Changing host]
VinDuv has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
VinDuv has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
kartikeya is now known as kkd
kartikeya is now known as kkd
sepehr has joined #asahi
sepehr has joined #asahi
ulaas has left #asahi ["WeeChat 3.0.1"]
ulaas has left #asahi ["WeeChat 3.0.1"]
_whitelogger_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_whitelogger has joined #asahi
Namidairo has joined #asahi
vimal has joined #asahi
raster has joined #asahi
klaus has joined #asahi
ephe_meral has joined #asahi
Necrosporus has joined #asahi
vimal has quit [Quit: Leaving]
flying_sausages has left #asahi ["Leaving"]
KindOne has quit [Quit: K-Lined]
<amw> svn: I have recovered my MBA from those horrible permissions errors by running "csrutil clear" in recovery mode and then I can install the m1n1 and it boots
<amw> I get a brief Asahi logo flash after the apple and then it reboots (this was an old m1n1 version)
rjeffman has joined #asahi
furkan has joined #asahi
<amw> svn: I just installed your m1n1 usb-dwc3-serial-wip + asahi linux dart-iommu and it boots to the kernel with ordinary USB cable but no sign of activity on the USB cable
<amw> Sorry sven: - Is there some special parameter to make it try to activate USB device mode?
<rockinrobstar[m]> marcan: will you be signing on behalf of the project?
<sven> amw: did you already get usb device mode in m1n1 working?
<sven> don't try to boot all the way to linux yet, that's very much WIP
<sven> but the support inside m1n1 should be fine
<amw> sven: Probably not. I just cat-ed all the items together...
<sven> yeah, not a good idea
<sven> you don't want to boot to linux just yet if you want to test this
<sven> just install the m1n1.macho and see if a serial device appears and if you can use proxyclient/
<amw> It boots up and the frame buffer works but Linux is trying to use ttySAC0
<sven> what does "linux is trying to use ttySACO0" mean?
<amw> But *NO* activity on the USB cable from my linux laptop
<amw> Actually I did get a "applesmc: send_byte(0xf4, 0x0300) fail: 0x40"
<sven> uhhhh
<sven> let's go back a step
<amw> But I have no idea which end that was from :-)
<sven> that's unrelated
<sven> you don't want to boot to linux on the Mac yet. that's not what that branch is about
<amw> sven: Just boot the pure m1n1? Will it do device like things that I can see from the other end?
<sven> yes, it should show up as a serial device and allow you to use proxyclient/
<amw> Woah! Sounds great. I might just try that right now
<sven> the whole point of this endeavour was to allow people to use m1n1 without any special hardware and to make uploading kernels much faster :)
<amw> sven: I got the ttyACM0 USB serial port going for the proxy and the chainload - Thank-you!
<sven> nice. chain load is still a little bit rough on the edges since the ttyACM0 device will disappear just after it jumps to the kernel
<amw> sven: The kernel loading hasn't worked yet - but that will be fun for tomorrow - I'm getting F0Mn: write data fail messages
<sven> should work just fine though
<sven> F0Mn?!
<sven> is that from a Mac OS dmesg? don't trust that. I never saw anything from usb on Mac OS
<amw> sven: I don't know either => I think I might have to rebuild things / add more debug et cetera
<amw> That is from my Linux laptop (an old 2012 Macbook Pro running Linux (debian buster))
<sven> I need some more information to be helpful. so far this just sounds very confusing
<amw> Time for me to git the bed though - At least I can go to bed on a real high!
<sven> heh, okay. good night :)
ephe_meral1 has joined #asahi
ephe_meral has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
snalty has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
snalty has joined #asahi
jordan has joined #asahi
jordan is now known as Guest89357
snalty_ has joined #asahi
snalty has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
sepehr has quit []
JusticeEX has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Hakon__ is now known as Hakon
JusticeEX has joined #asahi
ephe_meral2 has joined #asahi
ephe_meral1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
arcsor5 has joined #asahi
Bennett[m] has quit [Quit: Idle for 30+ days]
Bublik has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Bublik has joined #asahi
odmir has joined #asahi
jato_ is now known as jato
<marcan> rockinrobstar[m]: I'm considering it, though I'm interested in people's opinion
cutecactus has joined #asahi
peterkovar[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
hypergenesis[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
snalty_ is now known as snalty
emily has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
dacre[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
rockinrobstar[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
ldhacker[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
foxlet has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
peterkovar[m] has joined #asahi
Eighth_Doctor has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
JakeVossen[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
d_u_f_f[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
jryans has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
dacre[m] has joined #asahi
rockinrobstar[m] has joined #asahi
hypergenesis[m] has joined #asahi
ldhacker[m] has joined #asahi
emily has joined #asahi
foxlet has joined #asahi
Eighth_Doctor has joined #asahi
JakeVossen[m] has joined #asahi
jryans has joined #asahi
odmir has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
d_u_f_f[m] has joined #asahi
odmir has joined #asahi
TheJollyRoger has joined #asahi
odmir has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Izumoo_ has joined #asahi
<klaus> marcan : leaders of big tech shouldn't do politics. that means linux distros lead devs too. politics will divide and fragments us all. see now how tweeter and mozilla and apple and many other are putting forward their opinions and that is creating polarisation and antagonism. big tech & IT leaders should provide a service, and that is all. they should not take socialtal and political position.
<klaus> the moment you take position, you will create pro and contra groups
<tpw_rules> big tech is intimately linked with politics
<tpw_rules> as is more or less everything
<tpw_rules> saying something is non-political is in and of itself a political statement
<winocm> not taking a position is also implicitly there yes
<marcan> that argument basically means "you should ignore abuse"
<klaus> tpw_rules yes and that is a new trends for the last decade more or less, and that is a really bad things that leads us toward control of information and 1984 style of society
<marcan> we have a code of conduct because that is *not* how we do things; we want people to feel welcome contributing to the project
<klaus> @marcan you're not super man or president, it's not your job to solve world abuses.
<klaus> your job is to make top notch distro
<marcan> everyone saying that is exactly how abuses go unchecked
<marcan> my job is to make a top notch *community* which is a prerequisite for making a top notch distro
<marcan> and that means making sure everyone who isn't being harmful to others feels welcome
<klaus> you continue that line and you will create factions .. you will think you're fighting against abuse, so you're on the good side, but some will see it differently, and you will have two groups,
<klaus> pro and contra, and that is how division and fighting starts
<maz> there are things that are worth fighting for.
<winocm> clearly that means I should become a politician
ephe_meral2 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<marcan> if you've read my commentary on these kinds of issues at all, you'll know I am very much against excessive responses that widen rifts between people
<marcan> but there are lines, and there are things we need to care about
<jn__> i'd be happy to see "marcan (Asahi Linux)" on the list; Seeing Asahi Linux as a group on the list would imply uanimous support from the community, and i'm not sure about that. i myself am undecided about the rms case
<jn__> errr, unanimous. one-voice.
<klaus> IT companies and big tech would have done us all a service by staying out of it all, by entering this fight and choosing sides, we are all tumbling down the information control spiral
<marcan> jn__: it would be the former, of course
<eta> >the information control spiral
<Necrosporus> People should be free to have their opinion and they should feel safe to express it, without fear to lose their job or physical harm
<marcan> we do not have a process to assert consensus as an organization
<eta> that sounds very conspiracy-theory-adjacent
dacre[m] has left #asahi ["User left"]
<Necrosporus> If somebody disagrees with RMS opinion on things they can tell it, but they must not demand him to go away
<eta> klaus, also like, the world is full of disagreement
<eta> this fact is somewhat invariant
choozy has joined #asahi
VinDuv has joined #asahi
<eta> if you don't explicitly create processes to deal with it, it just becomes more painful for everyone involved
<marcan> Necrosporus: when you have a position of power, your opinions have an undue influence on the world; as the founder of the free software movement, RMS has a *lot* of power, and that power carries a huge responsibility.
<marcan> if someone in a position of power is causing harm to a community, it is perfectly logical to want them to go away
<marcan> he can still think whatever he wants, but he isn't entitled to the respect and a position of leadership in the free software world if his views hurt that world
* eta absolutely does not understand the mindset of "you should be able to do terrible things without consequences"
<eta> (which ime is often trotted out to fight against """cancel culture""")
<klaus> what RMS is and thinks is a personal thing, he did not commit crime, he did not rape or kill or steal anyone, so he shouldn't get social image destroyed, and his live impacted in big ways. we are all small persons, we can have good and wrong ideas, we are imperfect, and that is what makes us what we are. as long as he doesn't commit crimes, he shouldn't get punishment. what these 'good thinking people' are doing is creating censure,
<klaus> information control, and paving the way to some form of mac-carthism and totalitarian state, where we are not allowed to speak freely. talk is free.
<klaus> acts leads to consequences
<marcan> and to be clear, I am against "runaway" cancel culture; I saw an episode of something that went *horribly* wrong recently, and was then successfully co-opted by the other side to push an extremely discriminatory agenda
<marcan> but that was a case of a mob attacking an innocent person not in a position of power over a misunderstanding and across cultural lines
<klaus> he commited to criminal acts, he shouldn't get punished for what he is as a individual, even if some of his idea are frown upon
<marcan> RMS is definitely not such a case
<Necrosporus> marcan, but free software community is supposed to be inclusive, right? If people want to exclude somebody from the community (RMS for instance), they fight against inclusivity
<eta> people do not exist in a vacuum
<marcan> Necrosporus: to be inclusive you need to be exclusive of those who are exclusive
<marcan> that is an unfortunate fact of life
<eta> if people loudly support opinions that are harmful to other people, that is something you can mark them down for
<Necrosporus> It's as bad as demanding people to be excluded from free software community based on their nationality, gender or whatever
<marcan> nobody is saying RMS needs to be "excluded from the free software community", we're saying he shouldn't be at the top
<klaus> marcan, indeed, you're right about cancel culture. i think we all saw by now what cancel culture does in practice.
Raqbit0 has joined #asahi
<klaus> it start well intentioned, but leads to serious consequences to our societies
<klaus> and our liberties,
<eta> Necrosporus, there's a stark difference between "someone did something wrong, we should exclude them for it" and "someone is female, we should exclude them for it"
Raqbit has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Raqbit0 is now known as Raqbit
<amonakov> eta: also, their previous message seems to bring up the paradox of tolerance in pretty much its pure form?
<klaus> marcan that paper you're being asked to sign clearly call for shutting RMS off FSF
<eta> yeah, which is not having him be at the top
<marcan> exactly
<eta> the FSF is not the free software community
<Necrosporus> eta, something wrong like committed a code which destroyed data on purpose would be a good reason to exclude somebody. But excluding somebody for their opinion in politics would be as wrong as excluding females (or males or whatever)
<klaus> there was a first charge like this one a while ago that already lead to him doing a first step down
<Necrosporus> like 'if you think oranges are bad you should not commit to our project"
<marcan> "politics" is a weasel word
<marcan> we are not excluding anyone because of "politics", we are talking about very specific actions
<Necrosporus> Anyway, opinions should not be basis for exclusion
<eta> Necrosporus, in the general case, I agree with you! but in this case it's less about "politics" and more "this person actively does harmful things to other people"
<Necrosporus> even if not about politics
<eta> Necrosporus, they shouldn't, but RMS is *not* being excluded based on his opinions
<klaus> if this trend continue, then who's next ? lnus torvalds , because of his too frank too blunt speech ?
<eta> he's been excluded based on his *actions*
<klaus> and so on and so on..
<Necrosporus> klaus, Torvalds was already attacked for it
<Necrosporus> They have pushed CoC too
<marcan> linus already got a decent round of reality check over his behavior
<jn__> (and also, the letter doesn't call for kicking RMS out of all of free software. he can still be a user and, i suppose, occasional contributor like the rest of us. an opinion-haver even, albeit with a smaller platform)
<klaus> Necrosporus i didn't know.. but i goes to show what i'm saying is really the trend.. we shouldn't merge and help that.
<eta> I agree that the cancel culture people can totally sound like some sort of oppressive thought police
<klaus> eta indeed
<eta> but you have to actually look at the specifics of every situation
<eta> like, sometimes people are 'cancelled' for completely stupid reasons
<klaus> and that is strongly increase as time passes by
<eta> I don't think this is one of them
<opticron> As a patreon subscriber, I'd be happy to see Asahi Linux on that list. I would not take it as any kind of slight if marcan chooses not to sign the project on to it.
<tpw_rules> and this is hardly even "cancellation"?
<marcan> again: I am very much against the common problem of things becoming runaway reactions to minor transgressions; I think over-unity gain is a major problem in society these days
<eta> like, you need to look at the facts and think about it, not just join in an angry mob
<marcan> but this is **not such a case**
<eta> yeah
<marcan> RMS has had *plenty* of chances
<marcan> this isn't "oh he said something stupid to a woman once"
<marcan> there is a long list
<eta> anecdata: someone I know at work who used to go to MIT told us about how RMS consistently was appalling towards women
<klaus> best option is to stay out of this hot mess, censure, social pressure, political activism, and all. internet was better when every company out there wasn't taking position and condemning this or that,
<marcan> it wasn't "better", it was a sausage fest
<klaus> free speech is like that,
<eta> (and to some extent, it still is :c)
<marcan> no, it really isn't
<marcan> (replying to klaus)
<choozy> eta; what actions are you talking about that would exclude him from the FSF?
<eta> choozy, this thingy I think
VinDuv has left #asahi [#asahi]
<choozy> eta: Yes I have read that statement
<jn__> choozy: the appendix, too?
<klaus> the legal system used to condemn acts and only acts, not speech, and there was a reason for that
<choozy> You mean the detailed public incident link @eta?
<Necrosporus> klaus, the problem is with _used to_
<opticron> klaus, there is a difference between being arrested for openly having shitty opinions and suffering social consequences for espousing your shitty opinions repeatedly
<eta> klaus, speech is an act :P
<Necrosporus> It's no more sadly. You can get arrested for what you say in the internet nowadays
<klaus> it is easy to turn people's mind into militants activists and police of tought, this should not be encourged.
<klaus> it alway start happen like that
<choozy> eta: I have read the link but not yet the Medium article I think you are referring to
<klaus> *to
<Necrosporus> opticron, who is deciding which opinions are shitty?
<opticron> society
<Necrosporus> Society is not a person
<amonakov> (slander, libel, etc., were criminal acts long before the Internet)
<Necrosporus> Society does not have a mind of its own to decide it
<marcan> there is definitely an average we call "society"
<klaus> if you start treating speech as an act it leads to control of thoughts and censure
<marcan> made by the people part of it
<Necrosporus> Censure is already there
<marcan> can we please stop it with the free speech nonsense? that argument gets really tiring; nobody is entitled to respect for their opinions
<marcan> free speech is *strictly* about government censorship
<klaus> Necrosporus yes and that is not a good thing, and should be made to made bigger problem than it already is
<taziden> marcan: +1
<klaus> wouldn't you agree that this last decade freedom of speech degraded very much ?
<Necrosporus> marcan, how about laws in many countries which require internet providers to block access to certain web sites?
<jn__> countering free speech with other, contrary free speech is fair game, IMO. countering free speech with state-sactioned police action is something different
<Necrosporus> isn't it government censorship?
<marcan> perhaps? the specifics vary, but I fail to see how this is relevant to the subject at hand.
<jn__> the authors of the open letter clearly used their free speech to raise issues about RMS' speech and baviour. it's not policing in the strict sense
<Necrosporus> It is a personal attack though
<Necrosporus> An attack against a person, not against particular actions
<klaus> @marcan you we replying to me or Necrosporus with your last sentence ?
<klaus> *were
<marcan> Necrosporus
<klaus> k
<marcan> it's an appeal to strip a person of their influence *because* of particular actions
<marcan> actions are performed by people
<marcan> and actions have consequences
<marcan> some actions have legal consequences, some actions have societal consequences
<klaus> action (aacts) yes,
<Necrosporus> Actions which are used as examples aren't related to software
<marcan> they absolutely are related to software
<marcan> they are related to creating an environment that is discriminatory against certain people developing software
<Necrosporus> I mean, suppose they wanted to fire RMS for his decisions, which led to bad consequences to free software community. That would be understandable
<marcan> they *did*
<choozy> marcan: what do you mean with free speech is *strictly* about gevenment censorship?
<marcan> that is *exactly* what this is about
<choozy> *government
<marcan> choozy: Freedom Of Speech is very specifically a concept which relates to governments not having the power to censor speech outside of a relatively small set of exceptions (fire in a crowded theater, etc)
<marcan> it is not about words not having consequences, or not being able to judge people for their words, or any private entity allowing all speech
<klaus> RMS has always talked about freedom, there you have a good example of freedom restriction and control. pressure is building to judge legally what people are able and forbidden to say and talk about. it's litteraly the start of tought police.
<Necrosporus> marcan, example 1: RMS said that Tcl is bad, elisp is better, that lead to both being abandoned and barely alive. This would be a valid argument against him being a director. Example 2: RMS said something about some people which wasn't related to software at all (such as Minsky comment), this would be invalid reason to demand him to step down
<marcan> don't even get me started on his definition of freedom; the FSF actively advocates for removing user freedom in quite a few cases
<marcan> but that's a whooole different topic that I just tweeted about :)
<Necrosporus> Yeah, that thing would be a valid reason too
<marcan> Necrosporus: that comment about Minsky has the consequence of making our community lose respect and have a hostile image, and thus makes others not likely to participate in it, which is a net negative for our community
<marcan> it's absolutely valid
<Necrosporus> But those reasons which are mentioned in aren't related to his decisions as director of FSF. So they are not valid reasons to demand him to step down
<choozy> marcan: It is up to the people and corporations which speech they will accept. But also they could just cut all ties with the Free Software Foundation instead of demanding a different set of board members including RMS
<Necrosporus> But it wasn't related to his decisions as FSF's director
<klaus> there's tribunal to judge crimes. people should substitute themselves to the justice system, people and say and talk whatever they want, and if a line is crossed, that should be settled in tribunal, not by "social justice" and common folks creating mobs
<klaus> typo
<marcan> choozy: that's pretty much what I said on twitter, yes, that we should stop listening to the FSF
<klaus> there's tribunal to judge crimes. people shouldN't substitute themselves to the justice system, people and say and talk whatever they want, and if a line is crossed, that should be settled in tribunal, not by "social justice" and common folks creating mobs
<marcan> and that is what I hope will happen if RMS does not resign
<marcan> but effectively what that open letter is saying is that FSF has a chance at having respect, if RMS isn't onboard.
<marcan> it is implied that if that does not happen, then they will lose it
<marcan> that letter does not have the power to force the FSF to kick out RMS
<klaus> maybe he crossed the line, but that is for the legal system to judgde, not people forming angry mobs substituing themselves to legal system.
<marcan> it is merely a statement
<Necrosporus> But there are people who would stop respecting FSF exactly for kicking RMS out
<marcan> I'm sure there are
<Necrosporus> And who would respect FSF if they don't
<choozy> marcan: It is merely a statement but it also could raise questions if this issue could get heated enough that people would like to not use the GNU userland if RMS stays on with the FSF
<marcan> and that's up to the FSF to decide what to do
<marcan> choozy: that would be a valid choice. it is fine to make statements.
<marcan> the entire *existence* of the FSF is about making statements
<marcan> like not using proprietary software
<klaus> problem is not with this or that specific case, which can even be justified to do so. problem is when you allow people to form angry mobs , that leads to bad society
<marcan> in fact, they are experts at doing that, and at doing it in ridiculous ways :-)
<Necrosporus> The problem is that their attempts to incfluence FSF lead to wrong direction
<marcan> klaus: so what, you're saying "some people are prone to not looking at the evidence, so we should never do anything even when there *is* plenty of evidence"?
<klaus> Necrosporus who's "theirs" and what attempts are you refering to ?
<taziden> I haven't seen any angry mobs against RMS. To me, angry mob refers to Charlottesville's event or something of the kind like the Capitol invasion but certainly not to people voicing their concerns in a text online.
<Necrosporus> I would have supported an attempt to change FSF mind regarding ROM-based software, or criteria for RYF certification. But this one isn't about that
<choozy> klaus: It could lead to a bad society bat unfortunately for now I don't expect these groups to come together and talk this over at all.
<Necrosporus> klaus, open letter's authors
<klaus> marcan no, i'm saying people should think about themselve with more modesty, situation are often more complex than what they look on the surface, and can have deep repercutions on our societies.
<marcan> I'm all for talking with people; RMS has been talked to. Repeatedly. He refuses to change.
* abff popcorn
<klaus> people today think they are as good as police, judge and jury
<klaus> that is bad,
<marcan> *sigh* this isn't a criminal conviction
<klaus> if crime has been commited, complain should be made through the legal system
<marcan> nobody is saying "put RMS in jail"
<taziden> Keeping in the board of your organization someone who is frequently ableist, misogynist, etc leads to a bad society
<marcan> they're saying "RMS's opinions hurt our community, so he should not be in a position of leadership where those opinions have weight"
<jn__> klaus: this is grassroots opinion-finding about a list of issues
<j`ey> klaus: so you think people should be able to say what they want with no consequence? what if someone was being racist in this irc channel, so they be banned? is that a consequence?
<taziden> I guess for some here they shouldn't be banned until the justice system has condemned them … lol
<taziden> Guess who's winning in this scenario … hate speech
<jn__> klaus: if pure legalism is your source of morality, than you're giving up any the potential for laws to be derived from morals
<klaus> marcan indeed, what is being done is social destruction, making people loosing their jobs, and many other oppresive move, it can lead to them being unpersonned (1984) and being censured from all channels, it's social destruction, and it is overriding the victims of these mobs their most basic rights. so you're right, they are not being sent to jail, but they are still loosing many important things.
<klaus> i know some book authors that have been sent to jail, or their bank account shutdown, kicked out of the bank, all tv, radio, and even websites shutdown,
<klaus> all means of communication cut
<j`ey> seems like a very different scenario
choozy_ has joined #asahi
<eta> klaus, this sounds like "oh no, people who do bad things have to suffer the consequences"
<klaus> this can be very serious
<tpw_rules> did that happen the last time RMS was asked to leave the FSF klaus ?
<klaus> eta you don't understand the nature of human being, it can become very cruel and lead to death
<tpw_rules> or to Linus?
<klaus> masses can become soul-less and cruel
<marcan> klaus: you are painting a million things here with the same brush
<marcan> this isn't "someone made a dongle joke at a con and got fired"
<klaus> tpw_rules it doesn't happen in one step, this kind of things establishes in steps
<jn__> torvalds took a step back, reconsidered for a few weeks and came back improved. overall a success
<marcan> this is a major public figure repeatedly demonstrating behavior that alienates people and hurts the entire community
<klaus> marcan at first not, but in second time yes
<abff> "autistic man has a hot take, apologizes, is gang stalked for the rest of his days"
<taziden> my alt-right speech detector is going off-charts, I gotta go, have fun
<klaus> you know when information wars start but once it start like all war, you loose control and it can go far and escape the original intent
<klaus> escape control
<marcan> abff: if only he apologized
<choozy_> klaus: that can and will happen but going into that would maybe be a case for asahi offtopic?
<abff> marcan: he did, redacted statements about those poor trafficked children
<klaus> see what those being cancel culture, the 'woke' people, see what that turned into .. at first it was all normal and well balanced and reasonable claims and wishes, and now it's spiraling out of control and becoming totalitarian
<abff> good enough for me
<marcan> he has not retracted plenty of other discriminatory statements
<klaus> *being -> behind
<abff> marcan: none of his other statements are bad, they're an autist being pedantic
<abff> stop bullying mentally disabled
<marcan> meanwhile he literally advocates for aborting mentally disabled fetuses on his site
<marcan> I don't think that argument was the best one to make here
<klaus> stop all bullying ..
<choozy_> marcan: I didn't think he was advocating but merely stating his opion on it?
<klaus> marcan if you don't agree and think his words are condemnable, then just fill complain through legal system
<marcan> this isn't about laws, we've covered this part of the conversation
* eta facepalms
<klaus> don't create or help create more angry mobs, more cancel culture, more censure..
<eta> klaus, okay so try this
<marcan> we are going in circles here, and I'm going to start reaching for the banhammer if you keep bringing up arguments to excuse this kind of behavior
<eta> people speaking out and doing things like the RMS open letter is having an opinion
<jn__> choozy: what's the difference between "advicating for" and "voicing and opinion in favor of"?
<eta> RMS should be allowed to express his opinions, but for some reason the RMS open letter people can't express theirs?
<jn__> s/and/an/
<abff> jn__: having an opinion and believing other people should have that opinion too? then theres the later steps of prostheltizing which is advocation on steroids, and finally indoctrination
<choozy_> jn__: Advocating for is trying to convince other people to do as you say. And voicing opinion in favor of is voicing your opinion and not convincing others to do as you say or agree on it.
<klaus> many folk here probably have good intention, but you don't understand what you're creating. this will escape your control and escalate.
<abff> marcan: if you consider this off topic I can be done
<jn__> choozy, abff: hmmmm... i think the line is in practice often quite blurry
<abff> jn__: then you're being reactionary imo
<jn__> abff: i don't see how, sorry
<abff> you should be able to differentiate between "I feel a certain way" and "I feel a certain way and so should you"
<choozy_> jn__: The line can be quite blurry, especially when in text the intent of what is being said is not always clear.
<jix> abff: what about "I think the right thing for you is to do something"
<klaus> eta you're talking about 1 person expressing his opinion, vs many people grouping together and fighting (expressing opposition) against. the fight is not correct, it's not 1 on 1, it's instead 1 to many..
<klaus> everybody should be able to express his opinion
<klaus> but
<Shiz> late to the party, but I signed the open letter on a personal note
<abff> sounds like advice, which can be considered perfectly fine, like for example this hate for rms I think is advice, perfectly ignorable advice
<klaus> people shouldn't group together to form an attack like a botnet attacking a server, for example.
<Shiz> I know Alpine didn't want get institutionally involved, but I did mention my affiliation
<j`ey> klaus: theyre not attacking, its not a mob etc
<marcan> klaus: the one has a lot more power than any individual in the many
<marcan> and it is not an attack, as j`ey says
<Shiz> rms has had several years of people talking to him and trying to tell him shit is not okay
<Shiz> at some point stuff reaches a limit
<abff> yeah idk what klaus is on about
<Shiz> one of the signers is his *former personal assistant*
<Shiz> this is not a letter to attack or hurt him personally, it is to get the FSF to recognize that he's not a good public spokesperso or advocate
<Shiz> (imo, socially *and* technically)
<j`ey> klaus: it's not a mob, just happens that some people disagree, and they're saying they disagree
<klaus> what RMS has done to desrve loosing his job, and as things goes on he may loose many more, being publicly shamed and hated, and as i say it often can quickly escalate.. RMS created gnu and fsf and fought all his live to improve our live, he brought good to society in general. he as an individual can make mistake, and if he does that is for tribunal to judge, condemn and punish, with a proper trial. not mob's
<Shiz> this is spaghett
<marcan> it's not *one* mistake, it's *many* explicit actions and opinions that *hurt* other people and *hurt* his cause and he refuses to change
<Shiz> his job is (was) the president of FSF and GNU
<Shiz> as a president, you represent the organisation and are a spokesperson for it
<j`ey> klaus: he's free to say what he wants, and others are free to disagree and say they would prefer if he wasnt the president or whatever
<klaus> marcan everyone deserve proper trial, not public stoning
<Shiz> if your actions and words drive people away, you are a terrible spokesperson
<cutecactus> @marcan: regarding abortion: guess what people who know the potential outcome actually do:  most abort them, similar in other countries
<marcan> klaus: we've already gone through this. this isn't about laws. nobody is being thrown in jail. if you keep bringing up that argument I'm going to reach for the kick button.
<Shiz> also, this is more than "mistakes"
<Shiz> as I've noted before, he's been told for years on end that this is not ok behaviour
<Shiz> he refuses to address it
<klaus> you're ignoring the davastating power masses can have on individuals
<Shiz> he didn't even address it the last incident
<klaus> *devastating
<eta> klaus, you're ignoring the devastating power individuals can have on masses :p
<tpw_rules> you're ignoring the vice versa
<Shiz> I'm not gonna sit here and take "but you're being mean to rms :(" when he has driven at least dozens of people away
<Shiz> and refuses to address that behaviour
<klaus> some people commit suicide sometime because they have been stripped of their social image and public recognition
<marcan> cutecactus: which is a personal choice, not something to be advocated on others
<jn__> klaus: he deserves credit for klicking off GNU and FSF. the open letter is about decising the course of presence and future though. he doesn't need to be on the FSF board to keep GNU/FSF invented or keep the GPL written, the past can stay in place without him
<eta> klaus: some people commit suicide sometimes because of intensely poor mental health brought on by the likes of RMS creating a toxic environment
<jn__> (*deciding. ugh, my typos)
<jn__> (*kicking off)
<Shiz> this is quickly escalating to ridiculous speculation
<abff> marcan: like most opinions normal people have, they just want to be able to express them without being persecuted as advocates
<abff> like I am not an advocate for a lot of things I believe
<marcan> and we just want to express our opinion that RMS shouldn't be representing the entire movement
<abff> but I am often worried about even expressing them to people
<eta> this is so very circular
<abff> marcan: yeah and thats dumn
<klaus> you folks advocating for this kind of stuff are contributing to horror you don't understand. you're helping creating a monster you can't control. think about the 'woke movement, cancel culture ,and social justice warrior.. look at all the chaos and censure they created and became the new norm in our daily live in 10 years of time.
<Shiz> etc
<cutecactus> marcan: wow, just take a look what he actually wrote, i'm just reading it myself:'s_syndrome)
<Shiz> yes yes we get it, holding people accountable is terrible
<balrog> abff: for the record Stallman has stated that he is not autistic and does not like when people say that he is; it is a bad practice to treat autism as an excuse, and a worse practice to do so when the person denies it outright.
<abff> balrog: I meant autist in the 4chan sense
<abff> pedantry was the real point
<balrog> -.-
<cutecactus> That choice does right by the potential children that would otherwise likely be born with grave medical problems and disabilities. As humans, they are entitled to the capacity that is normal for human beings. I don't advocate making rules about the matter, but I think that doing right by your children includes not intentionally starting them out
<cutecactus> with less than that.       When children with Down's syndrome are born, that's a different situation. They are human beings and I think they deserve the best possible care.
<balrog> I think we need +m
<abff> y'all know people who go out of their way to be pedantic to the end
* eta thinks abortion and down's syndrome is incredibly off topic for [checks notes] the asahi linux main project channel
<abff> like I said, I'll respect a call for offtopic
<abff> I'm only here because mini saved my lifr
<abff> thanks for that btw :)
<marcan> yeah, we're going to stop this conversation now
<marcan> I think what was to be said has been said
<jn__> klaus: the "monster" can only live in peoples minds. so lets stay vigilant, i think we agree there.
<abff> agreed
<klaus> cutecactus you're not a judge nor a policeman, there is a reason legal system exist, it is so folk do not make street justice. it lead to bad society. now i said what i think i should have said about it all. i will refrain further commenting about it. i don't want feeding the monster and participating in circling logic.
<marcan> klaus: stop.
<abff> its over man
<choozy_> eta: Yes, it could be better to discuss stuff at the offtopic channel
<marcan> not here, not offtopic; this discussion has run its course
<jn__> on to more joyful topics
cutecactus9 has joined #asahi
<marcan> I'm going to sleep, and I am requesting that nobody try to bring back this discussion while I do so (as I won't be around to moderate); I reserve the right to issue temporary bans if someone does nonetheless do so.
<modwizcode> night!
<Shiz> sleep well
<choozy_> Marcan: Sleep well
choozy_ has quit [Quit: - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
alvaro_fe has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
ephe_meral2 has joined #asahi
alvaro_f1 has joined #asahi
raster has quit [Quit: Gettin' stinky!]
raster has joined #asahi
raster has quit [Quit: Gettin' stinky!]
raster has joined #asahi
raster has quit [Quit: Gettin' stinky!]
ephe_meral2 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
cutecactus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
cutecactus9 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
niv has quit [Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC:]
niv has joined #asahi
niv has quit [Client Quit]
DarkShadow44 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
DarkShadow4444 has joined #asahi
DarkShadow4444 is now known as DarkShadow44
DarkShadow44 has quit [Client Quit]
maor26 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
niv has joined #asahi
niv has quit [Client Quit]
DarkShadow44 has joined #asahi
DarkShadow44 has quit [Client Quit]
niv has joined #asahi
niv has quit [Client Quit]
niv has joined #asahi
niv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
niv has joined #asahi
niv has quit [Client Quit]
niv has joined #asahi
DarkShadow44 has joined #asahi
kettenis2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
kettenis has joined #asahi
vilhalmer has quit [Quit: :qa!]
vilhalmer has joined #asahi
troseman has joined #asahi