ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<wb9688> romangg: Do you happen to know whether Scroll Lock works in KWinFT? I am wondering because KDE's keystate protocol does contain Scroll Lock, however in certain other compositors Scroll Lock can not work due to it not being a real modifier or something.
<wb9688> Or perhaps zzag[m] knows it for KWin
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<romangg> wb9688: I don't even know what this key is supposed to do lol. You got an example application where activating it should induce some noticablly differently behavior?
<kennylevinsen> To my knowledge the only purpose of that button is to light up an LED on the keyboard if present.
<pq> I think it may have been meant for stopping terminal scrolling once.
<pq> hmm, but we also have Pause key
<pq> and Break key, too
<SardemFF7> it does lock the scrolling of e.g. real terminals (Linux VTs support that), IIRC
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<SardemFF7> I think some terminal emulators support that too, can’t remember which ones though
<SardemFF7> (maybe xterm)
<pq> why have I not hooked up PrtScr to screenshooting in Weston
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<emersion> you should save it in case weston gains printer support
<pq> it could prefer printer if present and a file when not
<MrCooper> as long as there's no Wayland compositor corresponding to Xprt :)
<pq> I've no idea how Xprt worked.
<pq> but I do recall hearing about xprint
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<romangg> daniels: I meant with "phrase it nicer" not what you said to me but the to articulate the opionon that "KDE's private protocols are rubbish".
<emersion> i think there's a misunderstanding in the phrasing, too
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<emersion> out of context, "KDE rubbish" is different from "rubbish private protocols"
<emersion> the latter is what romangg meant
<emersion> but i don't want to put oil in the fire
<romangg> so something like "KDE's private protocols lack a certain amount of protocol design quality"
<romangg> emersion: yes, I guess that this can be misunderstood with the half-sentence in between the dashes.
<daniels> well sure, but also why is it necessary to go out of your way to shit on KDE?
<daniels> then complain that people aren't working together enough?
<daniels> I mean if you want to propose something and try to pull interested people in then go for your life
<daniels> but I don't see how randomly sniping at people helps collaboration in any way
<romangg> Because that's where I made the experience that it's not working out well. I can't speak much about Gnome for example. And tbh even if some decisions of Gnome regarding I think might hold the Wayland ecosystem back (protocols) I respect people like jadahl for their continued upstream contributions.
<romangg> I haven't seen as much contribution from KDE.
<emersion> fwiw, i think we all have our rubbish private protocols. we have stuff like input-inhibitor, GTK has its own shell, weston's private desktop protocol isn't great
<romangg> emersion: Definitely allthough the quality of wlroots private protocols is top-notch in comparison. Don't know about GTK, weston's ones.
<daniels> romangg: so what's your end goal then? just spread the word so everyone knows that Plasma has a shit private protocol for activation? dissuade KDE people from participating? other?
<romangg> Problem analysis, then solution finding.
<emersion> zzag[m]: so i'm just "the rest"? (j/k)
<romangg> Don't see the matrix messages btw
<ishitatsuyuki> I'm missing the context
<emersion> ah, yeah, if you're sending messages, we don't see anything
<ishitatsuyuki> the conversation seems to start with a ping to daniel/s but I can't track what daniel/s said priorly
<daniels> romangg: calling something rubbish isn't exactly an analysis of a problem
<daniels> romangg: and that issue isn't the place to solve it either
<daniels> it's just randomly venting at people you don't like
<daniels> heh
<daniels> either/or
<emersion> :P
<ishitatsuyuki> ok
<daniels> zzag[m]: in order to see your messages on IRC, you'll need to register with NickServ
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<romangg> daniels: "Rubbish" is exactly what you think when you read through these protocols. And yes, they are old as was also pointed out in the thread, the people who designed them are not active anymore, so it's in particular not "venting at people I don't like".
<romangg> I'm not making this a personal matter here.
<daniels> but you are by singling KDE out
<daniels> it's an old protocol written long ago, superseded by a new standard protocol which they do also implement
<romangg> It's what I'm experienced with. Can't talk about Gnome as I said earlier as I don't know much about their protocols.
<romangg> daniels: No, it's not superseded.
<romangg> It's actively used and there are similar ones.
<daniels> well, I'm sure your message will make them really enthusiastic about participating upstream and having to work with you
<daniels> I know I'd find that super motivating
<romangg> What's your approach?
<ishitatsuyuki> please just stop using words like "garbage", "rubbish" or "trash". they provide no benefits to discussion and only create dramas
<ishitatsuyuki> I know everyone has a lot to complain about Wayland, but just do it constructively and we live on
<romangg> ishitatsuyuki: There isn't a lot to complain about Wayland. It's a good piece of technology.
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<ishitatsuyuki> huh ok, guess that's a good thing?
<zzag> daniels: I guess that could explain why I sometimes don't get replies :D
<pq> zzag, oh ih, I see you now!
<pq> *hi
<ishitatsuyuki> whether it's Wayland or KDE, please do the criticism constructly, especially when the devs are supposed to see the discussion
<ishitatsuyuki> constructively*
<daniels> zzag: ha!
<daniels> ishitatsuyuki: ++
<daniels> romangg: find where the issues are, see if they're interested in solving those issues in a generic way?
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<daniels> romangg: rather than tell them that their work is shit and hope this results in them wanting to do things differently
<romangg> ishitatsuyuki: Things that are shit have to be called shit. Of course one should still repect each other personally. Nobody is perfect and one can assume not people are the problem but systems and structures.
<ishitatsuyuki> romangg: I just said that calling things "shit" serves no benefits. they don't provide context about why it's bad and it's not like people would stop using KDE because you call it shit
<romangg> ishitatsuyuki: What are you talking about here? It's not about using something or not. It's about improving the ecosystem and architecture.
<ishitatsuyuki> this is open source, we don't operate by trashtalking every competitor but through a process of collaboration
<daniels> romangg: they really don't have to be called shit at all times
<daniels> romangg: if they proposed it for upstream, then sure, have a constructive and specific technical conversation about it
<daniels> I just find it absolutely mindblowing that you'll go 'yeah KDE's really shit' in an unrelated issue, and also be confused about why they're not working more with you
<daniels> personally I'd be avoiding it
<romangg> daniels: Well, at least they quickly joined this channel, even though they haven't yet added something to the discussion. But it's a first step, right?
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<pq> Calling anything with such words is by definition not improving anything. It can only cause negative emotions.
* daniels rolls eyes
<pq> Negative emotions can trigger responses, sure, but not constructive not cooperative.
<pq> *nor
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<romangg> pq: Don't think that's necessarily the case. But yes, one needs to go into a constructive phase for sure.
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<pq> romangg, by triggering negative emotions, you raise the effort needed to reach a constructive phase.
<romangg> zzag: Use the KDE IRC bouncer. It has worked well for me for years.
<daniels> romangg: why would you want to start in an unconstructive phase?
<romangg> daniels: think of the french revolution. :P
<daniels> romangg: I try not to model software-development communities around violent sectarian conflict
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<romangg> Haha, seriously though sometimes you need to call something out to make people aware that there is a problem.
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<daniels> but if you're unnecessarily pissing people off, then you're making the problem (of some kind of disconnect) worse
<zzag> romangg: "Well, at least they quickly joined this channel, even though they haven't yet added something to the discussion" I don't want to participate in this discussion if you continue speaking in such an abusive tone. Also, KDE developers have been present in this irc channel for long time, it just happens that most of them are connected via matrix...
<romangg> zzag: omg, what "absuive tone"?
<zzag> abusive*
<romangg> and why are you correcting now my spelling mistakes?
<wb9688> romangg: Scroll Lock is indeed not used that much nowadays. If I remember correctly, Scroll Lock is a virtual modifier, while Caps Lock and Num Lock are 'normal' modifiers. That is why Scroll Lock doesn't work in most compositors. The reason why I'm asking is that I'm working on a library called libxw and as I implemented keystate, I was wondering if KDE actually supported Scroll
<wb9688> Lock as they do have it in their keystate protocol. Libxw is supposed to make it easy to write GTK panels and other applications that need to interact with the compositor, because then you'll only need to write certain code (for getting keystate, toplevel list, workspace list, etc) once instead of multiple times (for X11, wlroots, KDE, etc). I'm not that far with it yet (i.e. so far
<wb9688> I've only implemented keystate and my X11 implementation for it is wrong as I don't look at the key state but at the indicator state, which could of course be different and there you can't differentiate between locked and latched, though locally I also have some work on making screenshots and output management).
<zzag> romangg: I thought that I made typo because you quoted text
<romangg> ok, nevermind. :D
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<MrCooper> pq: apologies in advance for the useless information, but Xprt was the name of the Xprint DDX binary, i.e. the X server which rendered to printers instead of display devices
<pq> MrCooper, roughly that much I had heard. But not how it actually worked. :-)
<kennylevinsen> I assume this X server had a rather poor refresh rate
<MrCooper> pq: ignorance is definitely bliss in this case
<romangg> daniels: "see if they're interested in solving those issues in a generic way" That's the problem. Having interest in solving something in a generic way, or let's call it "providing solutions that also work for other projects", is something that KDE needs to learn. In the past they concentrated too much on Qt and not enough on the other players on the Linux desktop, rather seeing them as competition than partners.
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<romangg> That's my personal opinion and what I've experienced as part of that community.
<daniels> romangg: and you really think that calling them out for 'rubbish' is going to help with that?
<daniels> spoiler alert - it's not
<romangg> I think it's good that we're discussing the topic at least. Without the "rubbish" probably we wouldn't.
<romangg> If you want me to say "sorry" for calling these ass-old protocols "rubbish" I can sure do this: Sorry for calling these old protocols rubbish.
<romangg> They are bad, but not rubbish.
<romangg> Because they are bad you should work on better versions of them upstream. That would be totally awesome.
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<pq> romangg, we're not actually discussing the technical topic at all. We're discussing the choice of words, which does not help the technical problem at all. It might actually just make it less likely to be discussed.
<romangg> pq: We're talking about 90% about the choice of words and 10% about the technical problem. That's still 10% more than 0%. I take this.
<romangg> pq: But I get what you mean. Sorry, if I would see a better way for that I would do that instead.
<pq> I don't see any technical discussion here, just arguing.
<romangg> You're right, because it's not a technical topic to begin with. In the end it's a political decision. Should projects create and maintain their own bad protocols because they value other issues more pressing or should they prioritize the work on upstream generic solutions that might even help their "competition".
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<romangg> And protocols is just an example here, the most relevant for us in #wayland though.
<pq> romangg, I believe the only end result from this is that people ignore you more. That's definitely what I *try* to do keep my sanity when people call projects I work on by names. Anything else is a road to burnout.
<romangg> pq: It depends on who the person is. If you or daniels for example would call a project of mine by names I would most certainly not ignore you but ask you why you think this as I respect your professional opinion and want to know more to fix the problems you noticed.
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<pq> If several people think that, that might explain why projects can have such a hard time cooperating. You presume the receiver would have pre-existing respect for you and strong will to co-operate, and if they don't, it's a guaranteed failure that widens the divide.
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<romangg> pq: I think the problem is rather that cooperation induces cost. It's a non-economical decision to do it in the short time frame.
<romangg> Also it requires talking. No real haxor likes this, right?
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<zzag> copying some messages that I sent while using matrix:
<zzag> jadahl: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/41 is blocked mostly on missing acks and implementations, right? the protocol change looks reasonable
<zzag> Can somebody confirm that `Xwayland -shm` works as expected on FreeBSD, i.e. Xwayland creates wl_surface objects for x11 windows and sends WL_SURFACE_ID client messages to the compositor?
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<jadahl> zzag: yes, I think so. fwiw I "prepared" internal gtk4 api to be able to make use of it once that protocol landed somewhere. lets hope the puzzle still fits
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<jadahl> as in, the api between gtk and gdk
<jadahl> before gtk4 became stable
<zzag> jadahl: amazing! \o/ I will look into implementing it in kwin
<zzag> shouldn't be that hard </famous last words>
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<jadahl> zzag: i can look at actually trying to implement in mutter and gtk4 then. not so sure about gtk3..., it's a bit x11:y in its ways :\
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