ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<emersion>
ity: sure, can be abstracted away by libraries, e.g. like toolkits do or even GL/Vulkan. but at the Wayland protocol level, it still needs to be dmabufs and can't be abstracted
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<ity>
emersion: I don't understand why at the protocol level it has to be dmabufs, what is the difference between passing dmabufs directly and having a library that translates to dmabufs on Linux ?
<emersion>
the protocol is not code, it's a communication mechanism like HTTP
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<deathmist1>
hey, I've got a Minisforum V3 AMD tablet which seems to exhibit a libinput bug(?): with the keyboard case attached the tablet volume keys work as expected but if I remove it (same if I boot without it attached). /dev/input/event0 always seems to provide events if I cat it. debug-events example: https://paste.c-net.org/rt2sghudiqoz
<deathmist1>
s/but/but not/
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<kennylevinsen>
deathmist1: you can try to monitor event0 with evtest
<kennylevinsen>
that will show you what events come out of the kernel for that device
<kennylevinsen>
better than cat'ing it :)
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<deathmist1>
ok I went through all keys on the keyboard and have a theory: the volume keys are part of the same event device as the detachable keyboard (partially) so libinput never considers it "active" even if volume keys are still present on-device without the keyboard case attached. the only thing shared with the keyboard case seems to be LED_CAPSL for the caps lock LED seemingly. this even
<deathmist1>
also wasn't visible in debug-events fwiw
<deathmist1>
um, kennylevinsen: not sure how the k got lost. thanks again for the pointers!
<kennylevinsen>
You’re welcome
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<ity>
emersion: I don't understand why the protocol would have to be code for an abstraction to exist ? Like, dmabuf is already an abstraction on top of GPU-specific buffer handling, which then utilizes the kernel API (which is most likely utilized through libgbm). The same kind of argument could be made for not using dmabuf and instead having a custom protocol for Intel's buffer handling,
<ity>
AMD's buffer handling, NVIDIA's buffer handling, Lima's buffer handling... Thankfully the kernel at least abstracts that, but it's still an API, and most importantly *code* that ties them together.
<emersion>
i mean, nothing stops you from writing a spec for cross-platform buffer sharing
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<emersion>
but getting it working on multiple platforms, accepted and merged there, etc etc, is just going to be… a challenge
<emersion>
and that's an understatement
<emersion>
i personally don't even think it would be desirable
<ity>
Indeed, however I am asking whether there is room for adoption, or whether major projects (like Mesa) have already decided they will only support linux-dmabuf. I could make an MR for Mesa, however I'd rather know what is the sentiment around it before doing all of the work just to realize it has already been decided to not support non-Linux DRM platforms.
<ity>
Why do you think it would not e desirable?
* emersion
recalls about EGLStreams
<emersion>
because it just makes a whole lot of things more difficult or impossible
<emersion>
sorry, don't have more free time to discuss about this
<ity>
What for example ? Afaik the problem with EGLStreams was that it was a small-in-scope API, rather than something inherent to not being Linux-dependent. I would for sure be interested in hearing the exact reasons why EGLStreams was bad outside of _it's not GBM/dmabuf_, though, I tried to search for any detailed description but could not find anything outside of _it's bad for
<ity>
unspecified reasons_
<ity>
Ah, that's alright, thanks for your time ^^
<kennylevinsen>
ity: If you have a particular idea of uniting linux-dmabuf with <something else>, maybe try to draw up the practical details of the proposal to have something real to discuss
<kennylevinsen>
however, I feel that your are somewhat missing that whatever it is, you need both 1. compositor support, 2. a protocol to exchange the implementation-specific details, 3. client support wherever buffer management is required
<kennylevinsen>
e.g., in linux-dmabuf the compositor gives you information about format selection for different devices and use-cases, which your client and its gl/vulkan driver uses to allocate and later export images
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<ity>
kennylevinsen: I am aware I will need protocol support, client support, and server support. Right now I am simply querying whether a decision has been made to stick to dmabuf; whether a proposal would be welcome at all. Mostly wondering about Mesa here, if Mesa agrees the rest should follow somewhat easily.
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<kennylevinsen>
it's not a mesa decision, it's a community one, and there's no push-back on linux-dmabuf to my knowledge, nor do I see any reason for it - the burden of supporting something else is primarily in the server and client toolkits, and so linux-dmabuf - the protocol - ends up being quite a small part of the puzzle
<kennylevinsen>
whether a generic encapsulation is viable will require details of the other systems you have in mind
<kennylevinsen>
and such encapsulation also has the side-effect of tying the systems together to some extend, which might negate all benefit
<ity>
So, it's likely that there will be push-back against a more generic protocol ? The reason why I am asking before having anything concrete yet is to evaluate whether, after solving the technical issues, I will also have to deal with immense pushback just because it's change. I understand the concerns of issues that might arise, but we don't know yet whether they will; That is why I am
<ity>
asking whether it will be rejected on the basis of changing something and adding maintanence burden to replace that works for the majority of users in order to allow Wayland to run on non-Linux DRM systems (which are certainly a minority) alone, rather than any fundamental, solvable issues within the solution itself. I am ofc willing to write & send patches to major projects in order
<ity>
to lessen the work required, but I need to know whether they will be even open to the idea in the first place.
<kennylevinsen>
I simply cannot imagine that any discussion can start without anything concrete: i.e., a concrete platform needing support that does not fit the dmabuf/drm ideas and what thta support requires, and a concrete idea for how a "generic" solution would somehow substitute linux-dmabuf and support both those platforms in a way that would be better for adoption than a new protocol for the new system
<kennylevinsen>
(without such concrete examples, what you need is too blurry, and whether e.g. a generic protocol makes any difference in solving the problem whatsoever cannot be said.)
<ity>
Ah, I see, but given something concrete, a discussion can start, right ? Which is what I am asking about mostly, whether a proper technical discussion about it can be had if the ideas are mergable into a new protocol but not into dmabuf.
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