AlwaysLivid changed the topic of #haiku to: Open-source operating system that specifically targets personal computing. | https://haiku-os.org | Nightlies: https://download.haiku-os.org | Bugtracker: https://dev.haiku-os.org | SCM: https://git.haiku-os.org/ | Logs: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/haiku | Matrix: #_oftc_#haiku:matrix.org | XMPP: #haiku%irc.oftc.net@irc.jabberfr.org
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<Coldfirex> I have not. wasnt sure if that would mess with getting back into Windows later. If I can simply change it back after with no negatives then I can try that
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<roiredX> good day
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<countryboy> love you ...
<countryboy> i like haiku users : couse they are smart ... ;-)
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<anonymous_[m]> Someone have a good doc on crti, crtn and those things?
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<AlwaysLivid> anonymous_[m], oh hey, you're here!
<AlwaysLivid> anonymous_[m], Haiku doesn't have some Haiku-specific documentation about crti and crtn, etc.
<AlwaysLivid> But this Oracle page may help? https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E88353_01/html/E37853/crtn.o-7.html
<AlwaysLivid> We use the gcc compiler either way
<anonymous_[m]> OH yeh! that oracle page come in handy (well gcc default to work with all those definitions)
<anonymous_[m]> Thanks for the link
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<AlwaysLivid> No problem! anonymous_[m]
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<Animortis> We having repo issues?
<kallisti5[m]> not that i'm aware of. let me check
<kallisti5[m]> animortis: what repos are you using?
<Animortis> Uhm
<Animortis> Current
<kallisti5[m]> hm.. yeah. something seems wrong with wasabi
<kallisti5[m]> (again)
<kallisti5[m]> checking
<kallisti5[m]> pkgman add-repo https://de.hpkg.haiku-os.org/haikuports/master/$(getarch)/current
<kallisti5[m]> pkgman add-repo https://de.hpkg.haiku-os.org/haiku/master/$(getarch)/current
<kallisti5[m]> as a backup, you can switch over to our IPFS repos...
<Animortis> I'm OK just wanted to make sure we knew
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<Animortis> Yup np
<kallisti5[m]> ok. fixed. It was an issue on our side.
<Animortis> Cool
<Animortis> Downloads running super fast now lol
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<AGMS> Yes, just updated my Nightly Haiku, now at full bandwidth of my network connection (1.8MB/s) rather than a third of that (0.5MB/s).
<AGMS> And that's from Canada, updating via eu.hpkg.haiku-os.org
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<kallisti5[m]> also, give the IPFS gateways I mentioned above a try. They should be in sync with our normal repos
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<AlwaysLivid[m]> kallisti5: Do you think Haiku would ever be able to ship the IPFS repositories by default?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Just wondering for the most part, I understand this is experimental.
<Anarchos> AlwaysLivid[m] what is IPFS ?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> TL;DR Something like torrents, but more permanent and structured.
<kallisti5[m]> Definitely not for R1 / Beta 3 based on how it works so far. There are some issues around "new content". To keep things simple... When my node publishes updates to the Haiku / Haikuports repos, that new content is only on my node (until the people mirroring it pick up the changes)
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Hypothetically, everyone could choose to mirror the packages for Haiku, and it isn't possible in theory for anyone to manipulate the files.
<AlwaysLivid[m]> So, basically anyone can theoretically mirror Haiku packages.
<kallisti5[m]> What that means is accessing those files on gateways means they have to "find" my node
<kallisti5[m]> which can take > 30 seconds until more people mirror the latest content
<kallisti5[m]> which means your request fails for a while until more nodes in the network notice it
<AlwaysLivid[m]> ... That's not bad, right?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> I'm more concerned about the fact that many IPFS-related tools seem to be authored in Go, when our version of Go is pretty much significantly outdated. Not sure.
<kallisti5[m]> * Everyone updates from the "latest packages"
<kallisti5[m]> It's not really an issue for "existing content", but it's kinda top heavy:
<kallisti5[m]> * The network needs time to locate the "latest packages" but knows they exist
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<kallisti5[m]> as an example:
<AlwaysLivid[m]> There's also concerns about IPFS being bad for the environment if deployed at a large scale.
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<kallisti5[m]> nah. IPFS doesn't mine or anything
<kallisti5[m]> the only cpu + disk time is copying the packages around
<AlwaysLivid[m]> NVM I mixed it up
<kallisti5[m]> > I'm more concerned about the fact that many IPFS-related tools seem to be authored in Go, when our version of Go is pretty much significantly outdated. Not sure.
<kallisti5[m]> This is a good point. We need to improve our go port :-)
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Yeah.
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<kallisti5[m]> One reason i've been investigating it as you said... anyone can mirror Haiku.
<kallisti5[m]> even if you have a dynamic IP address
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Yup.
<AlwaysLivid[m]> I understand IPFS for the most part, I think.
<AlwaysLivid[m]> I should read their white paper...
<kallisti5[m]> it's all *really* interesting to be honest. The issue I mentioned above can be solved... pretty much you have to "repin" /ipns/hpkg.haiku-os.org for IPFS to cache the "latest data"
<kallisti5[m]> When my little Raspberry Pi 4 on my home network adds packages... it's the only location that the chunks are available until others "repin"
<kallisti5[m]> right now I try to coordinate and "release new packages, then pin them within an hour or so on a VM in another geographic location"
<kallisti5[m]> that adds more knowledge to the network on the new data and who has it
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Wait, you're using a Raspberry Pi.
<kallisti5[m]> Another example is getting past IP blocks. Russia blocks our Digital Ocean VM (they block all DO VM's)
<AlwaysLivid[m]> What storage medium are you using?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Yeah, noticed, read on the website too.
<kallisti5[m]> yeah.. all "seeding" from a RPi4 at my house
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Hopefully not an SD card? :P
<AlwaysLivid[m]> I figured that I could ask universities in my area as to whether they'd be willing to mirror Haiku, but I think I need to discuss this with the rest of you before I suddenly take on a representative role or whatever.
<kallisti5[m]> I have a 1TiB Sandisk SSD strapped to it via USB 3
<AlwaysLivid[m]> I have one too, I just need to start booting from it.
<AlwaysLivid[m]> The power's just about right, nicely enough.
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<AlwaysLivid[m]> I also noticed that old releases are at risk of disappearing because the mirrors keep ditching them - they're also available on the Internet Archive, right?
<kallisti5[m]> at the moment the flow is: builders -> Wasabi s3 buckets <- Raspberry Pi 4 -> IPFS
<kallisti5[m]> it's kinda a mess... but with Wasabi's threat that we're using too much bandwidth (and shutting us down last month) the IPFS stuff is my backup
<AlwaysLivid[m]> ... Should I contact educational institutions?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> That sort of does sound worrying.
<kallisti5[m]> lol. So, we really can
<kallisti5[m]> * lol. So, we really can't rsync mirror for now
<kallisti5[m]> there's no signature checking on our repos. That's the other half of the issue
<kallisti5[m]> If we start blasting mirrors out everywhere, we don't know if they have been tampered with
<AlwaysLivid[m]> wait, I think we're not on the same page, I'm talking about main releases and you're talking about the entire software repository too.
<kallisti5[m]> correct :-)
<kallisti5[m]> we do have some mirrors already for our releases
<AlwaysLivid[m]> ... so the problem is 'who the hell would manage the PGP keys', I presume?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Interestingly enough, the University of Athens still mirrors the last BeOS release.
<kallisti5[m]> nah. I already sign the haiku repo automatically (haikuports doesn't though). The issue is pkgman has no checking built-in
<AlwaysLivid[m]> (Athens, Greece)
<AlwaysLivid[m]> alongside with a lot of other stuff.
<AlwaysLivid[m]> How's the signing performed?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Jesus, this long TO-DO list just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
<kallisti5[m]> it's rabbit holes all the way down lol
<kallisti5[m]> that's why IPFS was my panic "for now" backup option
<AlwaysLivid[m]> So, has minisign been reimplemented for HaikuDepot in particular but not pkgman or...?
<kallisti5[m]> it has signature checking built in.. and most recently it added a way to verifying gateways are being truthful about the network contents
<kallisti5[m]> nothing has been implemented anywhere
<kallisti5[m]> I started adding signatures to the repo files in haiku 's repo build
<AlwaysLivid[m]> ohhhhh
<kallisti5[m]> nobody is picking them up yet :-)
<kallisti5[m]> the repo files contain sha256 checksums of every package (those are checked)
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Yeah, not to be confused with the ones in HaikuPorts
<AlwaysLivid[m]> How will it be established that the signature the end user will receive the correct signature?
<kallisti5[m]> so as long as we sign the repo files themselves, it should be a "good enough" chain of custody for now.
<kallisti5[m]> we have a public key
<kallisti5[m]> it may not even be public right now lol
<AlwaysLivid[m]> like in Haiku?
<AlwaysLivid[m]> like do we ship builds with the key
<kallisti5[m]> yes. example:
<kallisti5[m]> there's the signature process the builders do
<kallisti5[m]> I'm the only one working on this stuff... so it's the bare minimum for now
<kallisti5[m]> oops.. repos are further down. That's the signing of build images
<AlwaysLivid> I'll take a look ^-^
<AlwaysLivid[m]> Although I basically have no idea how to test things
<kallisti5[m]> the signing checks need to occur in the package kit so haikuporter and pkgman leverage them
<kallisti5[m]> the public keys need placed into a directory on the system for reference
<kallisti5[m]> hm... I could take care of that one now tbh
<kallisti5[m]> @pulkomandy: any thoughts on a collection of public keys should live?
<kallisti5[m]> boot/system/data/keys or something?
<kallisti5[m]> boot/system/data/key_db to match mime_db
<kallisti5[m]> or trust_db :-|
<PulkoMandy> mh... do we want this to be just a directory where anyone can add their own key?
<PulkoMandy> shouldn't this go inside BKeyStore instead?
<PulkoMandy> or something similar?
<kallisti5[m]> maybe? Is BKeyStore immutable?
<kallisti5[m]> here's the key:
<kallisti5[m]> untrusted comment: 2019 Haiku build infrastructure artifact signing
<kallisti5[m]> RWTPfbfFRi5b+T02aw733p5dp/UI/1Z946YWBInmkPmBlx2Zy1Vyw9kP
<kallisti5[m]> haiku-assets-2019.pub
<kallisti5[m]> we can skip the untrusted comment.. it's ignored by cli apps
<kallisti5[m]> Ideally the public key will be populated by the haiku package
<PulkoMandy> trying to remember what Debian does
<PulkoMandy> IIRC they have a two step process, where 1) you get the keys (from a package or manually download) and 2) the first time a key is used, apt asks you if you want to trust it
<PulkoMandy> this way the user can easily see if a new key suddenly pops up and check that it's what they really want
<kallisti5[m]> so it sounds like I still need to add it to the filesystem :P
<AlwaysLivid[m]> you can also update the keyring
<AlwaysLivid[m]> it expires after a while
<PulkoMandy> in that case, yes (add it to the haiku package? or maybe a separate package that isn't updated everytime we change a line of code)
<PulkoMandy> yes, I think what they do is automatically accept new GPG keys that are signed by the previous key or something like that?
<nephele[m]> i dont recall having to manually trust keys after installing them with apt or dpkg
<nephele[m]> like winehq keys or so
<PulkoMandy> apparently Debian is changing this after Debian 11: https://www.linuxuprising.com/2021/01/apt-key-is-deprecated-how-to-add.html
<PulkoMandy> and it will be one key per repo after that
<nephele[m]> They are replacing the easy tool with manual voodoo? hmm...
<nephele[m]> maybe this is a good oportunity to think how haiku wants to represent a key store (including the cert store) in general
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<countryboy> hello
<kallisti5[m]> we technically have the keystore already
<kallisti5[m]> but, it really isn't used too much outside of wifi / webpositive I think?
<Anarchos> nephele[m] there is already a keystore, used for wpa_supplicant, no ?
<nephele[m]> (i ment represent as in UI)
<kallisti5[m]> heck.. i just noticed we have a "keystore" cli application
<kallisti5[m]> never even heard of that
<Anarchos> kallisti5[m] is it time to mention RemoteDesktop ? another application nobody heard of...
<nephele[m]> anarchos: i also use the keystore with quaternion
<nephele[m]> does haiku have 'jnr' java native runtime?
<countryboy> nephele[m]: which yab calculus app could i write ?
<countryboy> nephele[m]: an easy one ...
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<kallisti5[m]> Anarchos: technically i've heard of RemoteDesktop :-)
<kallisti5[m]> I've used it a few times
<nephele[m]> but have you heard of html5 app server
<kallisti5[m]> though... been a while. You have to invoke some special code in app_server
<kallisti5[m]> nephele: yes
<Anarchos> yes too
<kallisti5[m]> I tried to get it working at one point :-)
<nephele[m]> oh it does work, it just crashes the app_server :)
<kallisti5[m]> it doesn't work anymore... it used pre-final html5 specs
<nephele[m]> i would have assumed it runs a second instance, but it doesn't really afaik
<kallisti5[m]> needs converted to canvas / websockets
<nephele[m]> It still works though
<nephele[m]> its not very stable but it kinda works
<kallisti5[m]> actually... looks like it was removed?
<nephele[m]> fairly sure its not removed
<nephele[m]> but its not in the app server tree, somewhere else but cant recall where :)
<nephele[m]> (i was playing around with it a couple of months ago)
<nephele[m]> i cant get unciv to run anyway, probably because i have no clie about gradlew
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<PulkoMandy> we still have both the native remote_desktop as well as the html5 one in tree, yes. I think Axeld is using them and made some fixes?
<Not-5835> [haiku/website] pulkomandy pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-0/±0] https://git.io/JGKqn
<Not-5835> [haiku/website] pulkomandy a16e1b3 - Haiku monthly activity report
<countryboy> I ask Axeld's forgiveness ...
<countryboy> for all ...
<lorglas> @countryboy, do you want to program with yab
<countryboy> yes, lorglas, but very easy apps ...
<countryboy> i think volume of a cylinder ... like ...
<lorglas> if you have questions, we have a irc channel #yab
<countryboy> fine ...
<countryboy> thanks
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<bitigchi> anyone from the promotion team here
<bitigchi> ping please :)
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<Not-5835> [haiku/website] leavengood pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/JGKw6
<Not-5835> [haiku/website] bitigchi 6043863 - Add thank you and donation pages (#513)
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<swift110> hey all
<ScottPuopolo> hey swift110
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<Not-5835> [haikuports/haikuports] kallisti5 pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-2/±0] https://git.io/JGKSk
<Not-5835> [haikuports/haikuports] kallisti5 fafc68e - minisign: bump to 0.9. Patches indeed now upstream.
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