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<OscarL>
Weird. I had a "git pull --rebase" endup with conflicts, and somehow 3 new files (the ones with conflicts) ended up appearing in the Desktop. Asking for "Get Info" showed that their location was actually inside my repo, and NOT on ~/Destop.
<OscarL>
I rebooted, just in case... and those 3 file icons were gone from Desktop. Did Tracker mixed up the locations of those PoseViews somehow? (I had a Tracker window open on the dir were the repo resides)
<OscarL>
doing git rebase --abort, and again, new files appear on Desktop, but their location is somewere else.
<OscarL>
Somehow I have to file icons with the same name on Tracker's Deskop now !? (one actually resides there, the other is a misplaced PoseView, I assume)
<OscarL>
(only one of them appear in "ls ~/Desktop")
<rennj>
bfs meta data perhaps the data about the data
<rennj>
thumbnail attribs
<rennj>
how is the weather OscarL ?
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<OscarL>
Hello there rennj. It is raining now :-D
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<rennj>
hehe, the blizzard has north America frozen. but what you got south America rocking
<rennj>
im in cali i had 50F+ today...sun grass nice sunset
<rennj>
my buddy has -2F haha, i got 50F+
<rennj>
what can i complain about...nice day, nice sunset
<OscarL>
(We got a power outage earlier today... managed advance quite a bit more with "Breakfast of Champions")
<OscarL>
Head that 90% of USA has freezing temps... Ouch!
<OscarL>
*heard
<rennj>
yeah well i got south lake tahoe for skiiing, or i can go to san fran for beach weather...today here was 50F+
<rennj>
skiing or beach
<rennj>
sun bathing or carving some ski lanes
<rennj>
best of both worlds
<rennj>
quality of life is what is all about
<rennj>
anything below miami florida, i.e. the florida keys is rocking
<OscarL>
50F == 10C, had to look that one up. I can't make head or tails with Fahrenheit :-D
<rennj>
i live in the florida keys for bit
<rennj>
i lived in the florida keys for bit
<rennj>
yeah well c= chapter 1
<OscarL>
10C is "very cold" where I live :P
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<rennj>
grrr /* formula = C = (5/9)(F-32) */
<rennj>
printf("%d\t%d\n", fahr, celsius);
<rennj>
hmm good old C
<OscarL>
easy enough formula, I still never seem to remember it :-(
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<rennj>
chapter 1 getc/putc and celsius/fahr
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<rennj>
of course doing turbo c on msdos box is not the same thing as doing c on unix box
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<rennj>
the tragedy
<rennj>
can you imagine the 80's no network..and the lameness.....
<rennj>
1989 ansi c
<rennj>
1984 tcp/ip in unix
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<OscarL>
Can you imaging the same, but in Argentina, and reading 0 English? :-P
<rennj>
i had msdos and att unix boxes ..so i got to see and compare
<rennj>
masm/tasm borland bullshit on msods vs just plain att unix
<OscarL>
Well, a few years later, actually, we got everything late down here.
<rennj>
no doubt
<rennj>
living with primitive 8bit 16bit 32bit isa's you get to appreciate the flow of technology
<rennj>
you have to make do, with limits
<OscarL>
I remember actually reading 90% of Delphi's docs in .hlp format. We had no other source of info about it, for example.
<OscarL>
learning DOS in English, with teachers that couldn't read it either :-D
<OscarL>
Lots of fun, in any case :-)
<rennj>
who needs teachers just give me the documentation
<OscarL>
And a English<->Spanish dictionary, at least on my case :-P
<rennj>
i had sun manual in book format in cabinets... for references...before sun microsystems had www http server
<rennj>
sunsolve,usenet,manuals in physical form
<rennj>
solaris faq on usenet was rocking
<rennj>
solaris 1.0 and solaris 2.0
<rennj>
i.e. bsd unix and att/sun sysVr4
<rennj>
back when the bosses left you alone
<rennj>
i use to be put in basements or data centers and left alone
<rennj>
like a mushroom kept in dark and fed shit
<rennj>
it was glorious!
<rennj>
i pine for those days
<rennj>
why i retired...hehe
<rennj>
the fucking posers
<rennj>
posers!
<OscarL>
(I needed teachers back then, because I was just a little kid, and they had the only computers I could access. Got my first, crappy, PC only in 1994)
<rennj>
commadore vic20 and ti zilog/99
<rennj>
like late 70's
<rennj>
grrr
<rennj>
vic20, timex siclair zilog z80, and ti 99
<rennj>
my friends had computer
<OscarL>
One friend of mine had a ZX Spectrum, and another one had a MSX II, but were just glorified "game consoles" for them.
<rennj>
one friend had vic20
<rennj>
one friend had tsr80
<rennj>
relative with zilog z80 spectrum
<OscarL>
yup.
<rennj>
and i had ti 99 first 16bit computer
<rennj>
trs80
<rennj>
not tsr80
<rennj>
tandy trash 80
<OscarL>
Actually had a course on Z80 ASM in 2007, lol
<rennj>
i did IC circuit desing with bread board had zilog z80 asm to program it
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<rennj>
it was nice and simple for sure
<OscarL>
We only did it on paper, sadly :-(
<rennj>
yeah microtrainers
<rennj>
but you can do all that in software now
<rennj>
dont need to use up meat space/physical space
<OscarL>
ah.... logiSIM. No wonder I couldn't find "logitech evolution" :-D
<rennj>
like play music
<rennj>
program sbc xmas tree bauble to play music
<OscarL>
nice timing diagrams.
<rennj>
yeah cause meat space
<rennj>
virtual device vs owning a real logical analyzer
<rennj>
suck
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<rennj>
i built multi million dollar networks..and i still feel stupid...and this was before the www
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<rennj>
Leonhard Euler and John von Neumann are you kidding me...im a goddamn retard
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<rennj>
the arrogance of people like Elon Musk
<OscarL>
crap.... I was the "smartest" kid in elementary and high school... kept thinking... mother of god, if I'm considered smart, this country is doomed.
<rennj>
exactly..you have the "doubts"
<OscarL>
My first encounter with actually smart people was in college. What a relief to meet people actually smart.
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<rennj>
yeah finally people who understand you
<OscarL>
And some people really, like, "gawd-damn, man you ARE smart".
<OscarL>
Was fascinating to watch.
<OscarL>
Then my mental health issues wreaked what was left of my functioning brain... and here I am :-P
<OscarL>
bashing my head against the keyboard till, sometimes, I get something almost working.
<OscarL>
00:00 here. Merry Xmas, or whatever, to everyone.
<rennj>
w00t!
* OscarL
pours one out.
<rennj>
heh
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<OscarL>
<OscarL> And some people really, like, "gawd-damn, man you ARE smart". <<<< I mean: I meet OTHER people that made me react that way.
<OscarL>
(just to clarify, after re-reading that, I thought it sounded nothing like I wanted to express)
<OscarL>
People firing up fireworks in the middle of a mild/heavy rain. LOL
<rennj>
nah, people call you smart and you feel like a retard cause you know what you dont know
<rennj>
smart enough to know how dumb you are
<B2IA>
(Sark) Well, I have over a full day of uptime on R1/beta4! Working really well overall, although I am giong to have to swap hardware around, this computer really doesn't have enough memory for this. Probably would also benefit from an SSD - oddly enough this feels slower than that Chromebook I was trying to use.
<OscarL>
"smart enough to know how dumb you are" <<<< that I can subscribe to! :-D
<rennj>
Feynman’s Breakthrough, Disregard Others!
<rennj>
just got to enjoy your short time on this rock
<OscarL>
absolutely.
<rennj>
and focus on what you need/want/desire
<rennj>
needs vs wants vs desires
<rennj>
what you need to live, vs what you want
<rennj>
not enough earth for people wants
<rennj>
not enough earth for people "wants"
<rennj>
what people need to live the greeks/roman figured out
<rennj>
boggles the mind the roman's had plumbing and the french 100's of years later had chamber pots
<OscarL>
knowing when you can do things, and when you cannot.... and find a balance between being a lazy ass, and felling guilty for not accomplishing enough.
<rennj>
ahh the guilt trip...fuck guilt
<rennj>
i got guilt tripped by the silent generation..fuck that
<OscarL>
(sorry if I "lag" too much, parts is due to my slow internet, parts to my slow typing, parts my slow brain :-D)
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<rennj>
parents from the silent generation not baby boomers..all about the guilt trip...
<rennj>
they did not challenge authority, they remained silent accepted appeal to authority
<rennj>
at least the baby boomers challenged the powers that be...went from hippies to yuppies
<rennj>
peace love drop in and drop out
<OscarL>
Gen X here.
<OscarL>
Here in Argentina the "generational divide" is with people that managed to sustain a huge family with only one salary... and now that 3 gens have to live in the same house due to the shitty economy.
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<OscarL>
"just work harder"... reminds memes you see on Reddit about dropping the avocado toast :-D
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<OscarL>
*reminds me of memes
<rennj>
yeah, from the sweat of your brow will you live
<rennj>
welcome to the jungle
<rennj>
uptian sinclair book
<rennj>
Chicago meat packing industry before FDA was created
<rennj>
deviled meat has people in it
<rennj>
hehe the spice will mask the taste
<rennj>
saw dust to fill out the meat
<rennj>
you know add substance/bulk
<rennj>
i add saw dust to my butchered ground round to fill it out
<rennj>
the jungle classic book
<rennj>
created the FDA in u.s.a.
<rennj>
appeal to their minds, but ended up failing and appealing to their stomachs
<rennj>
failure!
<rennj>
the book failed
<rennj>
appeal to their minds, but ended up failing and appealing to their stomachs
<OscarL>
little has changed since "bread and circus". other than now it is shittier bread and crappier circus :-P
<rennj>
cult of the coliseum / bread and circuses
<rennj>
sport arena is now the modern day version
<rennj>
Singapore has massive money making arena
<OscarL>
Tell me about it, as an Argentine after the World Cup.
<rennj>
yeah i really dont follow that stuff
<rennj>
modern superstructures on national geo
<rennj>
covers that
<OscarL>
Our current President disobeying the Supreme Court.
<OscarL>
The mother fucker was a "Constitutional law" professor.
<rennj>
i like watching info on modern superstructures
<rennj>
like ISS
<rennj>
or the tower in dubai
<rennj>
ISS 16 modules connected
<rennj>
100+ tons
<rennj>
i think
<rennj>
apollo AGC the guidance computer
<rennj>
curiousmarc on youtube..the brain
<rennj>
do is in cali rocking it
<rennj>
the apollo AGC videos are worth watching if you want to know about early IC
<rennj>
tin lead solder videos from nasa
<rennj>
flux!
<OscarL>
it was really impressive what the managed to do with so little computing power and so little memory!
<rennj>
yeah i had buddy tell be a sun system like that....
<rennj>
said could not be hooked up to mainframe/mini's but he did it.. was end of that story..some stupid circuit
<rennj>
i had hardware like that..shit it bricks ...because why not....
<Sark>
Just installed R1/Beta4 on a somewhat faster computer with more memory and an SSD. Installer loaded and ran fine, formatted and installed on the drive, rebooted - now it's hung at the Haiku logo screen. First three icons are lit up. Is there a key sequence I can hit to see what it's stuck on?
<rennj>
ibm mainframe---->some unknow hardware circuit----> unix mini/workstations doing ftp
<rennj>
do the spacebar boot
<rennj>
hold spacebar on boot
<OscarL>
Sark: hold SHIFT during boot up, easier than the space bar.
<OscarL>
see if one of the debugging options help.
<rennj>
hmm yeah follow OscarL i have no clue
<rennj>
my knowledge is old
<OscarL>
One should mention "screen debugging"... let me search for the proper docs.
<Sark>
Holding shift got it to boot. Wonder why?
<Sark>
Didn't display any extra information.
<OscarL>
rennj: space bar still works, but the timing of the key press might fail you :-(
<OscarL>
Didn't bring up the boot menu?
<Sark>
And yeah, I had a hard time with it - the stupid PC boots so fast with the SSD, it jumped from the Dell screen to the Haiku loading screen hung on the first three icons so fast I could't hit the shift key
<Sark>
No
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<Sark>
I let it sit at that screen for a couple minutes initially. Second time when I missed the keypress, it hung in the same spot but I only gave it 30 secs or less. Third boot I held shift the whole time, and it flew right through all the icons lighting up almost instantly, and the desktop came up.
<OscarL>
Sark: sometimes there are issues with "warm" vs "cool" reboots.
<Sark>
Ah. Well, I'll know for next time.
<OscarL>
sometimes booting a different OS, and doing a warm reboot can help, or just break things.
<OscarL>
*can also break things.
<rennj>
data at rest on the harddrive till the broke boot mess with it
<Sark>
This PC has 22 gig of RAM... hopefully things should run better. And a third gen i5. The other one with the second gen i5 and only 6 gig of RAM was absolutely not enough RAM.
<OscarL>
Some things can get properly initialized by either BIOS/UEFI, or another OS...
<rennj>
hehe 22GB big guy, on the block..you got biggest machine in the hood!
<Sark>
lol
<rennj>
128cpu/128GB hp v2600 in 1998
<OscarL>
or the other way around, at least from Haiku's point of view,
<rennj>
mr. big guy
<Sark>
The sad thing is this hardware was scavenged from the trash
<rennj>
you are 25 years late to part
<rennj>
you are 25 years late to party
<OscarL>
jeez.
<Sark>
Stuff is so disposable these days.
<rennj>
4 cabinets and 1 ssp
<Sark>
Oh, I remember - I ran BeOS 4.5 on a 233mhz Cyrix
<rennj>
kiddie toys
<rennj>
kiddie toys
<rennj>
kiddie toys
<Sark>
And I have a very.. extensive collection of vintage computers, some very large :)
<rennj>
128 cpu's and 128GB of ram in 1998
<rennj>
before beos r5
<OscarL>
I never actually seen a PC with more than 8G of RAM... and that's mine.. 8 GB of DDR2-800 :-D
<Sark>
6 gig really wasn't enough since it was sitting there slammed at all 6 gig in use, swapping, chugging and then the browser would hang real bad, crash, etc.
<Sark>
Little red line at the top of the activity monitor graph all the time.
<rennj>
back in the day GZIP couldnt handle 4GB files
<OscarL>
heck... my 2GB Atom N450 runs without a swap.
<rennj>
let alone a operating system
<Sark>
Very probably Web - it seems to be the crashiest and uses most of the memory. And that's where I was noticing everything chug and slow down, it couldn't even keep up with my typing.
<Sark>
But then of course when Web would do that, everything else would too.
<Sark>
Since the box was slam out of memory.
<rennj>
yeah toys
<rennj>
kiddie toys
<rennj>
how about 10000 users on the box
<Sark>
Yeah, well, this is what I can afford, OK?
<rennj>
you are talking about 1 user
<rennj>
your box is maxed out / the cpu is pegged so things slow down..but that is 1 user, what about the other 9999 users?
<Sark>
Well, there aren't 9999 other users. Unless Haiku is doing shady stuff I'm not aware of.
<Sark>
Should I be worried?
<OscarL>
I currently have not GTK, or even KDE programs/libs installed. Just for reference. I ran software builds for HaikuPorts almost daily. On a Win10 host, Phenom II, using VBox to run Haiku.
<rennj>
you think haiku is same class as linux or freebsd or solaris?
<rennj>
not even in the same game
<rennj>
haiku is multiuser os?
<Sark>
I mean, I like Haiku a lot. So I want to use it if I can. I don't intend to run multi user at all.
<OscarL>
(same Haiku installls I ran as bare metal)
<rennj>
i can have 100k diff UID's
<rennj>
you kiddies
<Sark>
On Haiku?
<Sark>
Or Linux?
<rennj>
not even in reality
<OscarL>
Just saying... the memory requirements seems to be due to ported software, not Haiku, per se.
<Sark>
All my other boxes run Linux, but, like I said - I really liked BeOS, I like Haiku, I think it's a really awesome project and I want to be able to run it and use it.
<rennj>
linux and solaris and freebsd you cant even really compete in that space
<rennj>
haiku is not going to be challenge those old os's anytime soon
<rennj>
you got firefox?
<rennj>
haha
<Sark>
And yeah - pretty sure Web is the culprit, it uses a ton of RAM, it doesn't really "fit" with the Haiku visual style even a little. But.. it works really well when it works.
<Sark>
As neat and fast as WebPositive is, it's not really usable with much of anything anymore :(
<OscarL>
I totally understand the need for a working browser... it is half the reason I use Haiku under a VM... so I can use Firefox from the Win10 host. :-(
<Sark>
The advent of a modern browser really makes Haiku daily usable.
<Sark>
Just... needs more RAM. hehe
<OscarL>
and in my case... a new computer :-D
<OscarL>
Sark: I read about your issue with pycrypto-whatever (sorry, I have memory issues)...
<Sark>
I mean, I'm not using top end anything, I haven't bought a new computer in at least a decade. Everything I'm running is stuff I scavenged from surplus/scrap. I have about 80 of these Optiplex 390's I saved from the dumpster. I've been giving them to any of my friends that need/want an extra computer. Perfectly usable for most stuff.
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<OscarL>
it is a really weird error that "EINVAL" not defined.
<Sark>
Yeah! I wasn't sure what to make of that. I'm going to try again on this clean install here, and reinstall Python and see what happens.
<Sark>
Now, there are a whole bunch of versions of Python in HaikuDepot - is there a preferred version? I kinda just started installing all of them after a while, trying to make it work :P
<OscarL>
as the file where it complains about it... should be able to "include <errno.h>", that in turns includes Haiku's <Errors.h> that defines EINVAL :-/
<rennj>
let me teach you something
<rennj>
dont buy into a platform
<OscarL>
3.10 is the first one that has a functional REPL (line-editing, history, autocomplete, and such)... but...
<OscarL>
it has problems with pip installed paths, so...
<OscarL>
stick to 3.9
<rennj>
amiga,atari,x86,msdos, att unix, solaris...dont but into 1 model of solving problems
<rennj>
amiga,atari,x86,msdos, att unix, solaris...dont buy into 1 model of solving problems
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<rennj>
computing is turing complete means 1 box can solve another box problem..Turing complete
<OscarL>
Even my crappy "OscarL-lang" was turing complete... it didn't make it productive, thou :-D
<rennj>
2+2=4 in end....no matter time diff
<Sark>
Hrm. Failed in exactly the same way.
<Sark>
I mean, not that I was expecting a miracle, but... you have to try, right? hehe
<OscarL>
Sark: I'm still a noob in most things regaring porting software to Haiku... and my Python experience predates virtual-envs, so... take that with enough salt.
<rennj>
Ken Shirriff is big brain guy
<OscarL>
I did the latest updates for Haiku's Python's port recipes.
<rennj>
curiousmarc on youtube like i said
<OscarL>
Sark: Still trying to fix the errors I was able to ping-point.
<rennj>
virtual env in python is just that..like virtual machine or virtual os...you got generic env for dev
<rennj>
ROI/TCO of hardware...you want to get best bang for buck
<rennj>
virtualize the machine or virtualize the os...
<rennj>
total cost of ownership and return on investment
<OscarL>
Sark: Other than that... most software/libraries are not even aware of Haiku, and need patches to either their sources, or to their build systems.
<rennj>
idle cpu,ram.disk is wasted money/energy
<rennj>
you going to do proper backups?
<rennj>
52 weeks per year so 52 level 0 tapes per server
<rennj>
cause the ransom ware encrypted your storage last week
<rennj>
100 server well 5200 tapes
<rennj>
now lets go an extrapolate what google has do deal with...
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<OscarL>
Nice find Sark!
<rennj>
1 admin should be able to handle 1000 boxes
<rennj>
so 52000 tapes
<rennj>
hehe
<OscarL>
that "Try including <OS.h> at the top of this file." doesn't seems to be of much help, considering what I've already metioned regarding _STDC_HOSTED_
<rennj>
exponential growth, well human mind cant handle that shit
<OscarL>
Sark: it is OK for me to mention your nick on a comment on that issue you linked?
<Sark>
Sure
<OscarL>
cool.
<Sark>
It also doesn't help that I can't *find* any of these files it's compiling anywhere.
<Sark>
Even using find to search for the file names doesn't turn them up. So I have no earthly idea where they are to even add that include to
<rennj>
compiling software is the battle...can you do reproduable builds...is the hash gong verify on hello-world.c...
<OscarL>
Sark: I could find "mm_malloc.h" with no issues on my system (albeit a bit slow doe to VM and slow HDD and PC)
<rennj>
hole point of nix/guix.....besides signing the binarys
<rennj>
and haiku isnt even in that game
<Sark>
Ah, that one I can find. I was looking for the package it was trying to compile, I thought that's where I'd need to add the os.h include to.
<Sark>
Like, I tried looking for the c file or the pycryptodome-3.16.0.tar.gz file
<OscarL>
Sark: added a comment to that https://github.com/haikuports/haikuports/issues/4684 issue. Maybe it will warrant further investigation, or at least a comment on how to fix it, from one of the actual devs :-D
<rennj>
listen george bailey it was a wonderful life!
<rennj>
now sign the binary securely so we can all verify it
<OscarL>
rennj: reproducible builds are a desirable goal indeed. not enough man-power for them in Haiku yet.
<rennj>
how primitive!
<OscarL>
It is what it is?
<OscarL>
why complain unless adding at least bug reports, I say.
<rennj>
complain you dont even have mutiuser..whats to complain about..you arent even in the game
<rennj>
haiku is for home users..not server/workstation env
<Sark>
I mean, if you hate the OS so much why hang around here and troll?
<OscarL>
even *I* grew tired of just doing bug reports and started to submit patchtes :D (and if even a dumb-dumb like me can do so)
<rennj>
but i also know about home computing vs servers and workstations
<rennj>
haha
<rennj>
beos is no server os
<rennj>
let alone haiku
<Sark>
Hrm, I guess I can't even add that include... those files are in a read only file system and I can't seem to change it
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<OscarL>
Sark: yup, that's expected... that's why I was confused earlier when I left you a comment regarding that maybe the issue was with pycrypto-something build system :-D
<rennj>
dont expect apple/m$/linux pace of development...let alone being a server os
<Sark>
I mean, obviously. This is a small community project. I happen to think it's really awesome. I'm just trying to learn about and use it for the things I usually use a computer for. Which is primarily playing with a computer. :)
<OscarL>
I had missed it that the "#if __STDC_HOSTED" guarded BOTH the inclusion of <errno.h> and the line that actually gcc errors on: 42... error = EINVAL;
<OscarL>
Sark: as someone that's being "playing around" computers since 1991... I can't think of a better place to do so :-)
<OscarL>
Just have to manage some expectations... and learn to live with things as they are.... or get your hands "dirty" :-D
<Sark>
I mean, I'm used to that, I daily drive Linux using ctwm.
<OscarL>
(Sark, just in case this needs clarification... my "English" is poorly self-taught))
<Sark>
And my "computer" is poorly self-taught. So it's all fine. Honestly, you speak English better than most people I talk to, I had no idea.
<OscarL>
Difference is... it is far easier to make a meaningful impact in Haiku, at least from my experience.
<rennj>
beos already got my money $$...they couldnt compete
<OscarL>
Thanks! (/me blushes a little :-D)
<rennj>
you need a server box besides a haiku/beos box
<rennj>
just to keep modern functionality
<OscarL>
rennj: no money involved in Haiku, unless you donate some.
<rennj>
i already paid
<OscarL>
The right tool for the right job, or something, no?
<rennj>
the right tool has been unix since 1989
<rennj>
heh
<rennj>
thats the funny part cause plan9 was suppose to abstrace all that
<rennj>
so multiuser, mulitasking os
<rennj>
which beos is not
<rennj>
let alone haiku
<OscarL>
I don't need multiuser. never had.
<rennj>
cause you dont have 10k users
<OscarL>
of course... then again... use the right tool.
<rennj>
i had that
<OscarL>
you don't use a FIAT 600 to Haul-U.
<rennj>
when beos failed, and zeta/yellowtab sprung up then openbeos..they chose wrong kernel
<rennj>
newos
<OscarL>
(and I'm from Argentina... we DID used Fiat 600 to do moves :-D)
<rennj>
heh...how about linux kernel that supports tons of hardware, and userland can be beos/beap
<rennj>
heh...how about linux kernel that supports tons of hardware, and userland can be beos/beapi
<rennj>
its all about drivers for hardware
<rennj>
a kernel that supports all the hardware
<OscarL>
BlueEyedOS and CosmosOS both failed?
<rennj>
openbeos NIH
<rennj>
hot invented here!
<rennj>
not invented here!
<rennj>
NIH syndrome
<rennj>
so keep chasing the hardware
<zdykstra>
Jesus you're negative
<OscarL>
Then again... why you still hang around these parts?
<rennj>
nah truth
<rennj>
reality
<rennj>
choices where made
<zdykstra>
Then there's no need for further interaction with you
<rennj>
fvwm+rox filer pimp ass newsreader, same shit on any unice
<OscarL>
(now that I re-read a few pages back): Sark: I had a couple of glasses of wine already... just making sure... you're talking about me, right? :-P)
<Sark>
hehehe
<OscarL>
rennj: lol... I was reading similar TV frequency standards in 2004/2005, while trying to write a BeOS driver for my TV/FM card.
<rennj>
dtrace and zfs s
<rennj>
nix. dtrace, zfs is modern day os
<rennj>
and if you dont know why..go read
<OscarL>
Only managed to make the FM audio part work... and, according to some Russian folks, I did it better than the original Windows drivers (I managed to get better stereo sound, apparently)
<rennj>
bootadm/beadm is just bonus when using zfs..apply patches/changes without worrying, cause you can always rollback prior
<rennj>
i could rollback to openindiana boot prior to 1000 pkg updates
<rennj>
1 release to another
<rennj>
like going from beta3 to beta4 of haiku
<OscarL>
I like what NixOS tries to do... lacks "end-user" friendliness. Like dtrace... but I'm not enough of a developer to actually need it. ZFS... sounds amazing... does it works in low memory config yet?
<OscarL>
Again... right tool for the right job.
<rennj>
yeah when you have 1000's of boxes
<rennj>
right tool
<rennj>
you going to go bespoke when you got 1000's of boxes
<OscarL>
none of use seems to have that need :-D
<OscarL>
s/use/us/, sorry.
<rennj>
why docker rocks
<rennj>
you dont have clue..what drives the industry..
<rennj>
why things like vmware and docker become companys that make money
<Sark>
I've been running a couple of 8 disk arrays off ZFS on a computer with 3 gigs of RAM for years now. For a single user to use as a NAS for media files, backups, and the like it's been perfectly fine.
<OscarL>
isn't docker getting passé lately? (now I'm felling trollish)
<OscarL>
Sark: Nice!
<rennj>
golang.docker/containers are just virtual os's and not virtual machines, i know i went over this before...
<Sark>
Plenty fast and incredibly reliable. The RAM might be an issue if you were running, like a production database off it or something. But for me to store my stuff on, and mount via nfs to the various machines and set top box and stuff... works fine.
<OscarL>
Sarl: I was just rambling from some old memories.
<rennj>
roi/tco...return on investment total cost of ownership
<rennj>
i dont want idle servers
<Sark>
It's some dual core Pentium D computer I found in the trash. Very much obsolete by todays standards, but it has a PCI Express slot, and that's what I needed for the fibre channel HBA to connect the disk array boxes...
<rennj>
virtualize the os or do machines...load up the box..cpu memory disk nic should be close to pegged
<rennj>
then i get my return on investment
<Sark>
Not really any reason to max out resources on computers... PCs are free these days, literally.
<rennj>
you work in a data center?
<OscarL>
Sark: sadly not everywhere in the world :-)
<OscarL>
s/:-)/:-(
<rennj>
you got hot and cold aisles
<Sark>
No, people are throwing away office computers and slightly outdated servers all over the world, just have to know where to look. It helps I've worked my entire life in IT, so I can pretty easily scavenge cast off equipment.
<rennj>
heh do you even know what it means "hot and cold aisles"
<OscarL>
Even "third-hand" hardware is expensive down here, ha!
<Sark>
Of course.
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<Sark>
Done *plenty* of work in data centers. And have scavenged the hardware being tossed for being obsolete, hence why I have fibre channel disk arrays in a home NAS.
<rennj>
yeah what gbic/sfp/sfp+
<rennj>
brocade silkworm?
<rennj>
running what vxworks or linux
<rennj>
cause i go way back to 1GB fiber
<rennj>
back in the gbic days
<Sark>
The 4gb type, small sfp thing. Emulex LightPulse board, old Sun disk box. This replaced the Sun A5000's I was running before over 1gb fiber.
<rennj>
haha
<rennj>
that new shit
<rennj>
compared to stuff i ran
<rennj>
64 port 4GB fiber switch would have been money
<Sark>
Right. I'm not running the SparcStorage array with all the 9gb 5 1/4" FH HVD SCSI disks all day every day.
<rennj>
sun disk box
<rennj>
like sena or d100
<rennj>
like sena or d1000
<rennj>
with like 2GB gbics
<rennj>
that burn out all the time
<rennj>
junk
<rennj>
fc-al junk
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<Sark>
The Vixel brand ones? Yeah, I got burned by those a long time ago on a customer's E3500... that was an annoying troubleshooting session. I'll never forget that one
* OscarL
looks at his Athlon T-Bird 900 MHz, "hush, baby... 128 MB more of RAM and youl''b e ready for Haiku's beta4"
<rennj>
only thing nice about some of those old storage arrays is they did shared storage
<rennj>
2 boxes connected to same array
<rennj>
failover
<rennj>
shared storage was lame either way...
* OscarL
should have bought at least two more bottles of sparking wine.
<OscarL>
Sark: Xmas at your timezone yet?
<Sark>
Yeah! Just clicked over a couple minutes ago
<Sark>
Merry Xmas :)
<OscarL>
rennj: still 2 hs away for you, right?
<OscarL>
Sark: Same for you! :-D
<Sark>
Actually, wait, it's 1AM, the box I IRC from isn't in the same time zone as I am :)
<OscarL>
LOL
<OscarL>
3 AM down here :-)
<rennj>
california!
<rennj>
and no snow
<rennj>
hehe
<OscarL>
is that UTF-8? -7?
<rennj>
active passive clustering with shard storage was lame
<rennj>
SSI ftw
<rennj>
tandem nonstop compaq then hp..and it was killed off
* OscarL
can't never make any sense of that PST/EST/WhateverST :-D
<rennj>
but tidalscale using freebsd/bhyve does SSI today
<rennj>
you just have to pay$$$$
<rennj>
cause hp killed off OPENSSI
<rennj>
0 point of faults
<rennj>
0 downtime
<rennj>
just keeping adding computer if you need more cpu or memory
<rennj>
SSI was to good to let out...
<rennj>
knoppix live iso's that do SSI but based on 2.6.x kernel
<rennj>
when it got killed by hp
<OscarL>
now you're actually making LESS sense, regarding the on-going chat, than matt3. no wonder you two "clash".
<rennj>
SSI is single image..one large computer
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<rennj>
you keep adding boxes..and increases the cpu and ram of systems
<rennj>
you keep adding boxes..and increases the cpu and ram of system
<rennj>
OpenSSI is an open-source single-system image clustering system. It allows a collection of computers to be treated as one large system, allowing applications running on any one machine access to the resources of all the machines in the cluster.[2
<rennj>
1 big box
<rennj>
need more cpu..add another box
<rennj>
need more ram..add another box
<rennj>
no single point of failure
<OscarL>
Are you actually OK, rennj? Please try to not take this in a bad way... but maybe you need some off-line time, even more than I do?
<OscarL>
You seem to be talking just to yourself.
<rennj>
im trying to explain this cutting edge tech
<rennj>
but if your too dense to understand ill stop
<rennj>
OpenSSI is based on the Linux operating system and was released as an open source project by Compaq in 2001.[4] It is the final stage of a long process of development, stretching back to LOCUS, developed in the early 1980s.
<rennj>
yeah...it way before linux
<rennj>
like said tandem/compaq/hp and buried
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<rennj>
OpenSSI is designed to be used for both high performance and high availability clusters.
<rennj>
hpe buying tidalscale...is evil to me...cause once again it killed
<OscarL>
I wish most software in Haiku reacted on Key-UP, opposed to Key-Down.
<OscarL>
When you use a shortcut... you want the action to be perfomed after you RELEASE the key-combination, not when you press it (most of the time at least)-
<OscarL>
I've seen BeOS/Haiku had problems due to reacting to key-down events in rapid sequencing... when reacting to key-up would have solved the issue.
<rennj>
what i worked on..playing games!!!!!!
<rennj>
gamifaction of life!
<OscarL>
That KeyDown vs KeyUP Windows got right.
<rennj>
the last starfigher! you have been recruited!
<rennj>
Greetings, Starfighter. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan armada.
<netpositive>
morning
<netpositive>
OscarL: aha, you're the one who's feeding those random text generators 8p
<rennj>
fuzzing the gibson!
<OscarL>
I really think that BeOS/Haiku never understood (or implemented correctly), the distinction between KeyUP vs KeyDown :-(
<OscarL>
netpositive: hello there!
<netpositive>
OscarL: it can be fixed after R1
<OscarL>
Someone has to do it? :-=)
<netpositive>
nah
<netpositive>
8)
<rennj>
you cant handle the death blossom
<OscarL>
the wat now?
<netpositive>
are you feeling better?
<rennj>
the last starfighter!
<rennj>
that movie had early CHI
<rennj>
that movie had early CGI
<rennj>
tron and the last star fighter where early
<OscarL>
netpositive: still a bit under the weather physically (if I'm using that expression right), but in a good mood at least :-D
<rennj>
The Last Starfighter, along with Disney's Tron, has the distinction of being one of cinema's earliest films to use extensive "real-life" computer-generated imagery (CGI) to depict its many starships, environments and battle scenes.
<netpositive>
OscarL: great to hear!
<OscarL>
Oh, for fucks sake rennj. Not even I can make sense of that!
<netpositive>
8DDD
<rennj>
you never saw the movie?
<Sark>
Half of the "Computer generated" imagery in Tron was matte paintings and traced over film. There was some CG but a lot of the stuff that seems like it would be isn't.
<rennj>
tron or the last star fighter
<rennj>
well they are pretty good for timeperiod
<Sark>
Yeah, no, it was well done.
<Sark>
And I love the clever mixing of technologies to get the look they were going for with the technology available at the time.
<OscarL>
I know that reddit meme: all redditors are bots except you, but this is getting ridiculous :-D
<Sark>
Not that I would know a lot about Tron or anything... I mean, he says he fights for the user but who believes in the user anyway? :P
<rennj>
what does reddit have to do with irc
<rennj>
tron sucked
<rennj>
lame
<rennj>
didnt make sense
<netpositive>
OscarL: lol
<rennj>
fight for the kernel
<rennj>
no sense
<OscarL>
netpositive: thanks for asking, and good morning to you! :-) Happy holidays (excuse the slow typing)
<netpositive>
OscarL: same to you!
<rennj>
you want a good computer movie: The Forbin Project (1970)
<rennj>
that is some classic shit..
<OscarL>
> "<rennj> what does reddit have to do with irc" <<< an attempt at a joke on my part.. as it feels like everyone here things the rest of us are just GPT bots :-P
<rennj>
i dont keep calling people bots
<rennj>
perhaps people should stop accusing other people of being bots
<Sark>
Or, a good hacker movie - Sneakers from 1994? 93? something like that. I have it on VHS somewhere.
<netpositive>
or Hackers
<OscarL>
rennj: I didn't said that... I give up. I'm too slow to keep up. or care :-D
<netpositive>
OscarL: why don't you develop some haiku apps instead? ;)
<OscarL>
netpositive: KeyCursor, was originally great. I've just added some GUI config, and minor things... Worked great on BeOS... but on Haiku it still gives me problems :-(
<OscarL>
haven't managed to figure out why yet.
<OscarL>
(same with my serial_mouse driver... used to work on BeOS... it doesn't on Haiku, and I'm not smart enough to fixit, yet at least)
<netpositive>
you have a plenty of time
<netpositive>
maybe there are some bugs in haiku to prevent them working
<OscarL>
And i've found several more small thing I didn't even dare to publish back then :-D
<rennj>
x11 has supported that forever / KeyCursor
<netpositive>
i remember privoxy and CL-Amp
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<netpositive>
i mean i used both of them
<Begasus>
g'morning peeps
<netpositive>
morning
<OscarL>
some because they got added to Haiku (serial_mouse, poke driver)
<Begasus>
Merry X-Mas for those enjoying it :)
<OscarL>
good Xmas morning Begasus!
<rennj>
right alt+shift+keycursor
<Begasus>
morning netpositive OscarL
<Begasus>
morning rennj
<rennj>
mr. Dog
<netpositive>
merry chrismas, Begasus ! 8)
<rennj>
when we getting the picture link
<OscarL>
that I can aggree with rennj :-D
<Begasus>
later today when I get the digital version :)
<rennj>
hehe
<rennj>
you signed off on a cliff hanger
<OscarL>
after reading some IRC logs... Begasus owes us some pics :-P
<netpositive>
8]
<OscarL>
puppy-tax.
<OscarL>
Sorry for bringing this up again but...WTF? rennj... what other "mainstream" depiction of actual hacking is better than what Mr. Robot showed? that was what I was aiming at..., And regardless that... it was a A+ TV show nonetheless.
<OscarL>
Glad to hear, Begasus. Can't imagine the feelings. (I started to "program" again right after I had to put my cat down... trying my best to just not go down with him)
<rennj>
eh..get another car
<rennj>
eh..get another cat
<OscarL>
fuck you, rennj.
<OscarL>
and I mean it.
<rennj>
you will have many dogs and cats
<rennj>
human life time vs theirs
<rennj>
my aunt has had bunch for sure.. and she is 85
<Begasus>
OscarL, when it comes to the dogs I'm done talking about them with rennj
<Sark>
Huh - I... feel real stupid, I can't figure out quite how to use the Workspaces feature.
<Sark>
Like, how can I move windows to another workspace?
<Begasus>
just grab the window and drag it to another workspace?
<Begasus>
(in WorkSpaces replicant)*
<Sark>
Oh... derp.
<Sark>
Yeah, that works.
<Begasus>
;)
<Sark>
I'm used to ctwm, where I can just select "Occupy" from the menu and just select a window and send it wherever I want it (including more than one workspace at a time)
<Begasus>
OK, should be the last one for now (still plenty to go), so when you're updating you probably see lots of them there :)
<Sark>
And I was trying to drag windows off the screen like how the multiple desktops sort of barely works in MacOS (seriously, how'd they implement it so badly?). Dragging the window outlines in the little workspaces program makes a lot more sense and I can't believe I didn't think of it.
<Sark>
See, I told you I felt real stupid :)
<Begasus>
In Ubuntu I can only right-click on the window border and move it up or down the workspace
<Begasus>
We all got our moments ;)
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<Sark>
hehe
<Sark>
For my personal stuff I use Linux, and ctwm for a window manager. I really really like the advanced features it has, and lately having been using a Macintosh for work... have been highly frustrated attempting to use it.
<Sark>
Haiku's window management is far superior to MacOS X. On the Mac, I'm *constantly* losing windows and being unable to get to things, it's so clunky. It clearly was not designed to handle multitasking to any large degree.
<Begasus>
This laptop is running Ubuntu, I also use it to push changes to haikuports (works faster and don't have to type my psswd everythime), other laptop is running Haiku 32bit native (sometimes 64bit), and the last one is running Haiku in VBbox on 64bit :)
<Begasus>
If I would have one more LAN cable I could run the last one native also
<Sark>
My daily driver PC runs Linux, really most of my machines do. But I really like Haiku and keep trying to have a Haiku setup. Now that Haiku has a modern web browser, this makes it daily usable for many tasks.
<Begasus>
Out in a bit, heading of to our oldest daughter and the grandchildren ;)
<Sark>
I am on my second install of R1Beta4, the first one didn't go well, I installed it on a PC with only 6 gig of RAM and it wasn't anywhere near enough.
<Begasus>
That's one item I don't really care about, for my needs Web+ and Otter do the trick ;)
<Sark>
This one I'm using now has 22 gig of RAM and it's running well. The other one ran out of RAM so quickly and brought the whole thing to a grinding halt.
<netpositive>
Sark: what? 6GB of RAM?
<Sark>
Yeah, it's not even close to enough.
<Sark>
lol
<Begasus>
:P
<netpositive>
what are you running on it???
<Begasus>
the one running native only has 6GB, works fine for me
<Sark>
I left that machine running overnight and this morning it had locked up to the point where the screen wasn't even redrawing properly, and it was unable to let me close Web windows.
<Sark>
That one was an Optiplex 390, second gen i5, 6 gig of RAM, 250gb SATA mechanical hard drive.
<netpositive>
interesting
<Sark>
The one I'm using now is an Optiplex 7010, 3rd gen i5, 22 gig of RAM, 500gb SSD. This is *much* more usable. It also has an ATI video card instead of the onboard.
<Sark>
I think the biggest problem is Web, which uses the most memory by far, and once the system runs out of RAM and starts swapping it just grinds to a halt, Web crashes, everything becomes unusable.
<Begasus>
Heading out, cu later!
<Sark>
OK!
<Sark>
Have fun!
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<Sark>
Hrm. Now I really broke it. Crashed to the kernel debugger while doing something stupid with Python, attempting to get it to let me use a non standard serial baud rate.
<Sark>
And now it won't boot again. haha. Stuck at the first three icons lighting up and nothing. Tried holding down shift that got me through it last time but no go. Maybe it's time I step away from this for a bit, see if it figures itself out :)
<zdykstra>
Hah!
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<waddlesplash>
first three icons lighting then nothing means it got stuck trying to mount the boot disk
<waddlesplash>
that's very strange as usually this becomes "panic can't mount boot partition"
<waddlesplash>
instead of hanging
<Sark>
The weird thing is that it did this immediately after I had installed, I rebooted, it did it again, then I rebooted and tried holding shift and it just booted perfectly. I have not been able to get it to boot again this way after I crashed it though.
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<Sark>
Both from cold and hard boots.
<Sark>
err, warm boot, whatever. Reset/power cycle/doesn't matter, shift key or not, same thing - first three icons.
<Sark>
Going to try booting off the installer media and see if I can still get to the hard disk
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<Sark>
Huh - must have been a corrupt filesystem or something? I was able to boot the installer flash drive, mount the hard drive, unmount it, reboot... and it booted straight off the hard disk no problem.
<Sark>
Is there an equivalent to fsck for Be file systems?
<waddlesplash>
yes. checkfs
<waddlesplash>
there are also "recover" tools for when your filesystem gets corrupted but these are a bit experimental and not in the default install
<Sark>
Huh - OK, weird, my mouse doesn't work now that it booted back up. It did this when I was installing it the first time too, when booted off the installer media. If I plug another mouse in, the other one works fine, and if I reboot the regular one will probably work. It shows up in Devices, but not in Input.
<zdykstra>
I've had that happen randomly, but un-repeatably on a Thinkpad
<Sark>
I bet if I unplug the mouse and plug it back in it'll work.
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<andreasdr[m]>
Hi there!
<Sark>
Huh, no, it doesn't. Weird. Now that mouse doesn't show up at all.
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<HaikuUser>
wireless driver script is failing for me "network is unreachable"
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<Sark>
OK, submitted a ticket with the info about the mouse and tried to include everything I could. It's a weird issue, but if it's affecting other people as well, I feel less crazy and like it might be more helpful to document what happens.
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<Begasus>
heading down, g'night peeps
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<gingi>
hi there
<gingi>
merry christmas everyone
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<Forza>
Hi
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<Forza>
I'm curious about the ipfs mirrors. The whole haikuports is there, but can haiku software updater etc actually use ipfs? And if not, what benefit do we have on that part of the mirrors?
<augiedoggie>
it's just for testing, i believe kallisti5[m] ran into some issues when trying to use it for haikuports
<Anarchos>
how can i isntall source package to get the sources of a package copied on my laptop ?
<Forza>
augiedoggie: thanks
<Forza>
The idea of ipfs is good, but the implementation reminds me of Tor performance, which is really low. The CPU overhead is massive for what it does too, IMHO
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<HaikuUser>
Legends say you can approximate how many times someone might have installed Haiku by counting the amount of times a specific IP address joined #haiku as HaikuUser
<HaikuUser>
Anyway, merry christmas everyone!
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<Anarchos>
re mmu_man
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<rennj>
the vision default user account
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<kallisti5[m]>
<Forza> "I'm curious about the ipfs..." <- Hi! So the IPFS mirrors can be used via a gateway. If you run IPFS locally you can access the data via the local gateway, or you can use a public gateway
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<kallisti5[m]>
however.. they're more of a backup vs a primary method. There are a lot of technical limitations of IPFS
<kallisti5[m]>
tldr; if our object storage host decides to cut us off... IPFS is the backup of everything
<Forza>
Yea,even accessing local node isnt fast, especially when using ipns
<kallisti5[m]>
yeah. ipns is a single point of failure. The host with the private key is the only thing on the network resolving an IPNS hash to a IPFS CID (hash)
<kallisti5[m]>
there are workarounds, but none of them solve the potential of long file lookup times
<kallisti5[m]>
pretty much, in a disaster my plan is to link people to IPFS hosting content from individuals pinning Haiku's repos
<kallisti5[m]>
eventually we will get minisig checking build into pkgman... then we can offer haikuports to mirror providers
<kallisti5[m]>
(today we can't 100% confirm haikuports mirrors in an automatic way making a pretty substantial security risk to mirrors injecting bad stuff (tm)
<Forza>
I see. I don't mind hosting a backup/mirror of everything, just that the cpu usage of ipfs is rather large compared to everything else