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<chadmed>
damn so you cant actually hide devices with pipewire/wireplumber, only disable them completely
<chadmed>
which is obviously not what we want to do here
<bluetail[m]>
I wish Linux audio was less of a hassle
<chadmed>
yeah its a real shame
<chadmed>
and the worst part is it turns out that wireplumber was the problem causing the filter chain to not route automatically to the output, so ive had to fall back on good ol pipewire-media-session
<chadmed>
im pretty happy with this for a release tbh, only thing im still not happy with is that the bass completely disappears at low volumes, but we'd need some sort of dynamic loudness/expander filter to do that and i've no faith that pipewire could do that properly
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<joske>
chadmed: this does not work on the air (which is j313)?
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<Dcow[m]1>
joske: nope
<Dcow[m]1>
different speakers configuration
<joske>
ok, thought so from the README, but it says j31x ;-)
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<marcan>
oh, our little spammer learned how to IPv6, cute
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<jannau>
marcan: is it ok if I push directly to PKGBUILDs or merge my own pull requests?
<j`ey>
there's not a different dtb for 8 core and 10 core t600x right?
<jannau>
no, m1n1 is expected to fix that. We need it for cases where the hypervisor doesn't run with all CPUs
<j`ey>
ok then I think the affinities issue will also affect the 8core version, once the dtb has that in
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<maz>
j`ey: when do you get this crash? is that bare metal or under m1n1 as a HV?
<marcan>
jannau: I've been force pushing a bit so it's easier if I just merge, but I just did :)
<marcan>
maz: it's probably broken phandles when m1n1 removes CPU nodes
<j`ey>
maz: it's m1n1 hv with only a single core.
<marcan>
I still don't know why we need to *remove* CPU nodes but apparently disabling them doesn't work :-(
<marcan>
there's more stuff in m1n1 that needs to change to support missing CPUs
<j`ey>
marcan: yeah theres an array of CPUs in the aic node, it needs to remove it from there too
<marcan>
it needs to rebuild the core map properly and renumber the subnodes and ugh
<marcan>
j`ey: yeah...
<j`ey>
maz: I dont think your code is wrong!
<maz>
j`ey: it usually is, but in this case, I stand by it! ;-)
<j`ey>
;D
<j`ey>
I started to make an attempt here but it isnt finished or tested or compilable yet https://termbin.com/upul
<chadmed>
joske: damn i should change my naming scheme then heh
<chadmed>
i mean eventually it will work on the j313, eventually it will work on all the machines
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<chadmed>
now that i have the workflow down and have wrapped my head around playing with alsa and pipewire, i could probably manage a turnaround of t+1d from the kernel driver being made available if i had access to the machines
<j`ey>
yes, my fault... but its a bug in parallels
<maz>
yup, definitely. SYS_ID_AA64ISAR2_EL1 strikes again (it killed QEMU on HVF as well)
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<povik>
chadmed: j313 is the air with left/right speakers only
<povik>
kernel driver supposedly works there
<joske>
it does
<povik>
j293 is the older mbp with 4 speakers
<chadmed>
yeah my transforms wont work though
<chadmed>
well, you could apply them and see i guess
<chadmed>
but they wont sound very good
<povik>
yeah, just pointing out that is where the work is other than j316/7
<povik>
unless we want to do something with the simple left/right speakers too
<chadmed>
we will have to if we want them to sound good
<povik>
okay!
<chadmed>
i was devastated when i first learnt that like 90% of what makes tiny speakers like this sound good is the DSP in the background
<chadmed>
not because its a bad thing or whatever, just because i thought it was always super impressive that they could "make" such small speakers that put out a decent sound. turns out they cant! :P
<povik>
well they can if you include the signal processing :-p
<bluetail[m]>
sometimes those solutions are sufficient. especially when usually you use headphones
<chadmed>
oh yeah theres nothing wrong with it
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<chadmed>
my background in terms of audio stuff is coming from professional recording gear and hifi stuff where the engineering is in the physical hardware, and your goal is to apply as little DSP as is absolutely neccessary to correct for the room's characteristics (if at all)
<chadmed>
so its been interesting seeing the other side of it, where its used as basically a cost optimisation strategy
<mps>
sorry for clueless question from someone who don't know much about modern audio, but why adding filters or equalizers to kernel driver, isn't this job of userspace
<chadmed>
we're not, ive added them as a chain of pipewire convolutions
<mps>
chadmed: ah, thanks for explanation (I had wrong reading then)
<Jamie[m]1>
surely it's size optimisation rather than cost optimisation?
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<chadmed>
well its a bit of both. modern loudspeakers are usually made of pretty exotic materials and have some decently advanced passive (sometimes even active) electronics in them to control things like crossover frequencies and such
<chadmed>
if you can reliably do all that in software, you can use a very basic paper/cardboard cone, ditch the LC/RLC filters
<chadmed>
save yourself a buck or two per unit
<chadmed>
it adds up when youre a company like QSC or Yamaha or Peavey and producing thousands of units a month
<Jamie[m]1>
yeah I meant for the macbooks
<chadmed>
well yeah its still a mix of both. apple sell more macbooks than QSC sell K10s
<chadmed>
smaller speaker = smaller cost, not to mention you can use jellybean parts from whatever factory is next door to foxconn instead of trying to source actually good speakers
<marcan>
chadmed: wait until you find out about small cameras
<chadmed>
oh good small cameras havent been around long enough for me to be naive enough to be fooled by them
<marcan>
but seriously though: DSP is amazing, even in professional settings
<marcan>
the iLoud Micro Monitors sound better than quite a few significantely larger (uncalibrated) monitors thanks to the onboard DSP
<marcan>
(the disadvantage is they're extremely directional as a result, but if you *are* in the sweet spot, they kick ass)
<marcan>
it's not really a cost optimization strategy, it's a size optimization strategy
<chadmed>
oh yeah i remember when we added a DSP unit into our FOH rack. until we got a behringer x32 in, that thing saved my bacon on multiple productions
<chadmed>
kind of became redundant when i could do it all from the desk and save it as a preset but hey, it was nice for about a year
<marcan>
heh
<marcan>
yeah, at the end of the day, it comes down to there not being any reason not do use DSP in this day and age
<marcan>
you want to optimize the drivers and enclosures mostly for spatial uniformity (or not, depending on use case) and lack of notches/problems in the frequency response
<marcan>
and then who cares if they're flat or not, just DSP it
<marcan>
the main thing DSP can't fix is spatial issues, since you only have so many channels anyway
<chadmed>
yep exactly, even most good high end hifi receivers do it by default now, and turning it it off is an extra thing you have to press a button for
<marcan>
yup
<marcan>
re small cameras, I'm sure we all know smartphone cameras are all magic algorithms
<marcan>
but my first run-in with this stuff was in a *point and shoot*, Canon S100, which I bought a good 9 years ago now
<marcan>
turns out Canon also figured out it's better to give up on making the lens rectilinear and just cram more zoom in there, and fix it in software
<marcan>
(OTOH it's fun just how much more you can see around the corners in the uncorrected version!)
<chadmed>
i have nothing but support for any DSP that is put to work on making sure mio honda is presented in the best possible light
<marcan>
ahahaha :D
<chadmed>
thats interesting that it was in such an old point and shoot though, my first run in was with a blackmagic pocket cinema in 2016
<chadmed>
(smartphones and webcams notwithstanding of course)(
<marcan>
actually I think webcams have barely gotten in that game, if at all? mostly because they all kinda suck
<marcan>
I think only high end recent models actually do any of this
<j`ey>
better to hide the blemishes if the quality is bad
<marcan>
most webcams are a *really* dumb USB bridge chip and a jellybean sensor, they can't do much more than color correction and sharpness/trivial convolution
<marcan>
(webcams also don't have the same depth constraints as smartphones so they can also get away with much dumber lenses)
<marcan>
speaking of, I wonder what the ISP interface to the cameras in the M1s is like... probably also just a very high level thing
<marcan>
that thing has the biggest blob of them all
<marcan>
I assume ~100% of the magic is in there, neural network stuff notwithstanding
<marcan>
kinda funny that Apple didn't throw another Chinook in there to deal with speaker DSP to be honest, it's the kind of thing they'd do
<marcan>
I guess it could be done in AOP since that already handles (input) audio to some extent
<marcan>
OTOH, given we can apparently do better than them, this might be a good thing
<bluetail[m]>
Had the pleasure of owning the Neumann KH80. Even with my treated room I wasn’t well enough prepared. Probably they are so professional that you need to be an audio engineer and spend tons in room optimization before
<bluetail[m]>
that said I prefer the tannoy live mini to those 1200 eur speakers
<chadmed>
interestingly none of their machines have done it that way. im sure if it occurred to them to do it, they would have but afaik macos has handled audio DSP in some fashion or another for ages so the infrastructure was all there
<chadmed>
you dont need to spend tons on any room optimisation. especially if its just a room in your home, something as simple as a rug or thick curtains can make an enormous difference
<bluetail[m]>
can
<chadmed>
and by "can" i mean "does (if you dont have these things already"
<marcan>
I actually guessed the T2 macs might do it in the T2? if nothing else so Windows doesn't have to deal with it
<marcan>
but I have no idea
<marcan>
I do know audio goes through the T2 though
<bluetail[m]>
but room corners… I spent 3 grand and my room is so much quieter. I love it. Yea. Carpet, ceiling absorbers and ikea billy
<bluetail[m]>
also it helps if ur bed is in the same room and not much glass
<bluetail[m]>
use big plants before tall windows to disperse sound waves. Doesn’t always have to be a thick wall of wood art
<marcan>
my studio/bedroom has a few nasty resonances in certain spots from parallel walls, but the weird bed corner helps make it not too bad; I think a few strategically placed foam panels will take care of it
<bluetail[m]>
my problem is 50hz
<bluetail[m]>
but I think it might be coming from another room… idk
<bluetail[m]>
theres uneven wall filling
<chadmed>
could be a ground loop too. i have a shortwave radio that has such a cheap and nasty mains transformer in it that the whole unit vibrates at 50hz so i just run it off batteries
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<marcan>
I have a problem with elevator VFDs, which I've experienced in *two* apartment complexes already
<marcan>
I don't know if it's normal for them to be so nasty, but I can hear a constant high pitched whine whenever the elevator is powered on, it gets into *everything* audio
<marcan>
you can even touch the connector on bare headphones to a ground terminal or so and hear it unamplified
<marcan>
it's like a 5kHz whine or so
<chadmed>
sheesh yeah i would hope that isnt considered normal. certainly wouldnt be here
<marcan>
you'd think so but it's happened in two places now...
<marcan>
at least it seems to spare balanced connections, so mics survive (and it's also trivial to notch out if it comes down to that)
<marcan>
but anything unbalanced, which most of my sources would be...
<marcan>
plus speakers themselves...
<marcan>
even with the input disconnected or shorted, it gets into the internal amplifier stages :(
<povik>
5khz plague
<matthewayers[m]>
chadmed: what part of the world are you located in?
<marcan>
could be worse, could be the 1khz plague (USB)
<marcan>
I swear that thing is *everywhere*
<chadmed>
matthewayers[m]: australia
<marcan>
I hear it in goddamn TV productions now
<marcan>
USB-IF is personally responsible for this mess
<marcan>
whoever thought USB 2.0 was a good idea need to be shot
<matthewayers[m]>
chadmed: Nice! Where I am it’s 6:25 AM
<marcan>
"let's make a differential digital connection that isn't actually differential! and who needs a dedicated drain wire for the data path, just share the power ground!"
<marcan>
*shakes fist*
<marcan>
"and let's make the frame rate 1kHz, which is right at the peak of human hearing!"
<marcan>
I swear it's engineered to be as hostile to audio as humanly possible
<chadmed>
well it had to be different from firewire somehow :P
<povik>
:D
* marcan
still uses a firewire audio interface
<sven>
i'm still convinced USB is a practical joke taken way too far
<marcan>
:D
<maz>
should have been Ethernet from the very start! :D
<marcan>
I mean even PCIe is much saner than USB
<chadmed>
remember when early usb3 devices would just tank their connections because somehow usb-if ended up certifying non-compliant devices anyway
<marcan>
... and then USB-IF took over TB3 and rebranded it USB4 and *regressed* it
<marcan>
taking thunderbolt and making it *worse* takes a special kind of genius
<matthewayers[m]>
Why is USB such a horrible standard?
<bluetail[m]>
Don’t manufacturer’s use filters to make those problems go away? Owning an rme adi 2 sac fs headphone amp+dad
<marcan>
chadmed: remember those Intel laptops where USB3 would jam 5GHz WiFi?
<bluetail[m]>
usb 3.2 gen2 is actually usb 3.1
<marcan>
bluetail[m]: no filter will fix ground loops (properly)
<chadmed>
yeah lmao, wasnt the hack for that to open the thing up and ground the outside of the connector with a bodge wire?
<marcan>
you need actual isolation, and USB2.0 is conveniently impossible to optically isolate
<marcan>
chadmed: doesn't work (might help depending on circumstances though)
<marcan>
(but won't completely fix the problem)
<chadmed>
i wonder if its even at all physically possible for the PC industry to do something properly ever
<chadmed>
i guess PCIe is okay?
<marcan>
yeah, PCIe is fine
<marcan>
(mostly)
<sven>
nvme also seems fine
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<bluetail[m]>
What about galvanic isolation? Isn’t that how dehummers work? Using now 4 instead of 2 cables, making the connection balanced and canceling stuff out
<marcan>
yeah, you can't galvanically isolate USB
<marcan>
because it's not actually balanced
<marcan>
you can certainly galvanically isolate the analog side after a USB audio device and that will fix the problem, of course
<bluetail[m]>
how do I know my audio is kaputt cause using usb ?
<bluetail[m]>
I never had that issue with rme
<povik>
marcan: how come it's not balanced? i know there's a pair and that's about it
<marcan>
povik: because it's only balanced *during* data transmission - between transmissions it goes single ended
<marcan>
that means you can't capacitively couple it, nor can you transformer couple it
<marcan>
and there is always a hideous ground current going on
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<bluetail[m]>
We should only use spdif /optical
<povik>
right, but for EMI considerations, that current should occur only at start/stop transitions, right?
<marcan>
povik: at start/stop transitions, so exactly at a 1kHz rate
<marcan>
which is where that horrid beep comes from
<marcan>
and then you get funky noise that varies depending on what the data access pattern is
<marcan>
another fun thing is that USB is broadcast-downstream, unicast-upstream, so you get data-dependent noise even going to devices which aren't involved
<marcan>
e.g. have a USB audio interface and a hard disk on the same hub? the USB audio interface's USB cable is carrying currents that are a function of your disk reads/writes
<marcan>
(yes, broadcast-downstream is also hideous for power consumption)
<marcan>
(did I mention this standard is completely batshit insane?)
<povik>
we can read between the lines :p
<chadmed>
when they designed it, they were relying on interference from GSM to drown out any interference caused by usb :P
<marcan>
ahahahahahaha *cries*
<marcan>
back in the day I could point my iPhone 2G (yes I had one at the time...) at my Yamaha keyboard at just the right angle from across the room, and clearly hear it out the speakers
<chadmed>
we had a bunch of 700MHz band wireless shure mics that we had to bin in 2014, the government licensed the entire band they were on to mobile carriers for LTE
<marcan>
on amazon.co.jp you can buy Pyle wireless mics that run on bands licensed for TV here...
<marcan>
let's just say regulators are rather lax with enforcement
<sven>
speaking of the horror that is USB, at least usb3 on the typec ports works *sometimes* now. other times it still pretends the thing is high-speed only or that the port is just broken...
<sven>
[ 6.046992] usb-storage 4-1:1.0: USB Mass Storage device detected
<sven>
[ 6.029926] usb 4-1: new SuperSpeed USB device number 2 using xhci-hcd
<j`ey>
sven: still a big win!
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<sven>
ohhh… it always seems to work in one orientation. I guess there’s still a bug in the lane swapping
<povik>
sounds promising!
<sven>
I also still need to implement the tear down. Otherwise we’re back to “you only get to use this USB port once unless you reboot” :D
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<marcan>
j`ey: fixed the CPU affinity issue, and hopefully also the cpu-map
<marcan>
I kind of hate that code...
<marcan>
honestly makes me want to rewrite kboot.c in Rust just so I can use a real programming language with real collections
<marcan>
but I know that wouldn't go down well with some folks here :p
<j`ey>
marcan: thanks!
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<marcan>
heh, I just found a cool thing
<marcan>
let's see if I can make this work easily enough...
<kov>
povik, \o you said you had a few changes to tooling to build linux under mac, any chance I could bother you for the patch? =)
<marcan>
we now have a setup wizard for the KDE release :D
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<kgarrington>
marcan: will you eventually support FileVault, or are you avoiding it completely?
<marcan>
define "support FileVault"?
<marcan>
the installer should work with FileVault enabled
<kgarrington>
Oh, the wiki explicitly says not to turn it on
<marcan>
that's been fixed
<kgarrington>
So when you boot the Mac, it asks for your FileVault password (via the recovery partition instead of the Elle EFI system), and then boots to Asahi Linux?
<kgarrington>
old EFI system, that is
<marcan>
I haven't tested the new step2.sh process but given how it goes through the volume scan, it should ask you for your password just like the old terminal method did
<marcan>
so yes there should be an extra authentication step
<marcan>
I don't think it has to be your FileVault password per se, we don't care about the encrypted volume
<marcan>
I think it's just "any machine owner" for security reasons
<j`ey>
marcan: i assume the KDE setup wizard reskinned?
<kgarrington>
But the FileVault full disk encryption applies to the Linux partition? Or only to the Mac partition?
<marcan>
does exactly what we want with, like, three config files
<j`ey>
cute
<marcan>
kgarrington: FileVault is not full disk encryption
<marcan>
FileVault is very specifically encryption of the Data subvolume of the APFS container for macOS
<marcan>
nothing else is encrypted
<kgarrington>
Well, if the storage system is based off of iPhone hardware, everything on the drive gets a base level of encryption (what Apple sometimes refers to as “class-D”
<marcan>
the low-level full disk encryption should be there as far as I know, and should be transparent to us, since the NVMe controller ought to do that
<mps>
marcan: two days ago I tested installer and it worked fine
<marcan>
but that's not different from any other self-encrypting SSD as far as Linux is concerned
<kgarrington>
You’re saying that on Apple Silicon Macs, FileVault works like Data Protection works on iOS does, only adding additional encryption to class A,B, and C data?
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<marcan>
you're confusing the Data Protection stuff with how the encryption actually works
<kode54>
and he's gone
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<marcan>
kgarrington: you're confusing the Data Protection stuff with how the encryption actually works
<marcan>
what FileVault does is, effectively, make the entire Data volume equivalent to class C
<kgarrington>
I’m not gone, I primarily read this via whitequark’s log and open Palaver when I (rarely) want to ask a question
<sven>
there might be additional layer of encryption macos uses with additional hw support from ANS. there are some fields inside that TCB structure related to some "aes key" that we just don't use for now
<marcan>
there is
<marcan>
that's how the protection classes are implemented, and presumably also the general FileVault wrapping for that subvolume
<kov>
it's the one the docs talk about for fast remote wipe I suppose?
<sven>
yeah, that would make sense
<sven>
ask SEP or whatever for the key and just forward it to ANS when reading/writing blocks to offload the actual encryption
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<kov>
calamares looks great btw, asahi installer will be better than debian's ;D
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<marcan>
the key never leaves SEP
<marcan>
there's a backchannel between SEP and ANS
<marcan>
presumably that key field is for a per-file tweak key or so
<marcan>
and then there should be a flag that tells ANS whether to use the xART key generation process or not
<sven>
I just guessed SEP wrapped the key somehow and passed it along in that field then. but I haven't looked at this at all fwiw
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<kgarrington>
I should also say: awesome work everybody, and a special thanks to tpw_rules for the NixOS configuration
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<marcan>
either way, from the point of Linux's NVMe driver, everything on disk is plaintext except for the Data subvolume for macOS
<marcan>
and that subvolume is always encrypted regardless of whether FileVault is enabled or not
<marcan>
all that FileVault does is change whether the user login is part of the key unwrapping for that volume key (as protected by the xART mechanism) or not
<marcan>
and then individual files can have their own tweak or whatever and the data protection classes are implemented like that
<marcan>
with FileVault off, this is equivalent to class D on iOS
<marcan>
with FileVault on, that effectively upgrades the entire volume to class C
<marcan>
(which is a bit different since no such volume-wide class C mechanism actually exists on iOS)
<marcan>
i.e. with FileVault on, there is no class D any more
<marcan>
iOS does the same thing partition-wise, by the way
<marcan>
everything is plaintext except the user data subvolume
<marcan>
and to mount that subvolume you need to talk to SEP first and have xARTs up
<marcan>
same as on macOS
<marcan>
the difference is on iOS you never need the passcode to mount it overall, on macOS you do if FileVault is enabled
<marcan>
I'm guessing the underlying NVMe storage is encrypted with some other device key anyway before it hits NAND, and that would apply to the entire namespace/device, but there's no real way to verify that from Linux
<marcan>
eventually I want to support that whole SEP-backed/xARTs/transparent encryption stuff from Linux, but that will take time
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<bluetail[m]>
Will APFS require custom drivers ?
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<marcan>
ah, does it actually report it itself? I thought we had it in the ADT
<jannau>
it certainly reports itself not sure if that is enough, I don't have the best keyboard layout to test this
<dottedmag>
marcan: Isn't there a mapping from XKB layouts to console keymaps (I think Debian has introduced that)?
<marcan>
there's probably one somewhere, sure
<jannau>
iirc I've checked if there a DT binding to report keyboard layout but I didn't find anything
<arnd>
There is a binding for the chromebook keyboard at include/dt-bindings/input/cros-ec-keyboard.h, but I think this is just to establish which keys are where, not what is printed on them
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<kettenis>
marcan: I didn't look at it again after jannau found the country code
<kettenis>
but in general USB-HID keyboards report the keys by what's printed on them
<kettenis>
wich means that the actual layout doesn't matter all that much unless you actually want to remap the keys
<kettenis>
as opposed to xt and at keyboards which report a keycode which you then have to map to what's actually printed on the keys
<marcan>
kettenis: USB-HID keyboard report the keys by physical position, not what's printed on them
<marcan>
you definitely need a keyboard layout
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<marcan>
not sure where you got that idea from :-)
<kettenis>
maybe because I didn't pay attention to the footnotes in the relevant section of the HID Usage Tables document ;)
<kettenis>
combined with the fact that while there is an official .nl keyboard layout, all the letters are in the same position as with the .us layout
<kettenis>
and nobody actually uses that layout anyway, and what apple sells as a .nl keyboard layout doesn't actually match the official .nl keyboard layout anyway
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<marcan>
:)
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