ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi-dev to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General development | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi-dev
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<YichaoYu[m]> playing with the perf counter on a 13" air.
<YichaoYu[m]> is it expected that the counter only work on the E core?
<YichaoYu[m]> using numactl to pin the process to the P core cause it to not count anythng for both the cycles and instructions
<YichaoYu[m]> (and attempting to use the raw counter also seems to turn up all 0 on the P core)
<YichaoYu[m]> also somehow I must set `exclude_guest` or perf_event_open will return not supported
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<jannau> YichaoYu[m]: you have specify the performance core's counter explicitly with 'apple_firestorm_pmu/cycles/'
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: 'exclude_guest' is expected, we don't support guest profiling (or any sort of PMU virtualisation). and as jannau pointed out, you must explicitly select the PMUs you want to count on.
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<YichaoYu[m]> maz: the manpage for perf_event_open says that exclude_guest is x86 only
<YichaoYu[m]> and I had assumed that if I'm not running a vm anywhere, not specifying this option shouldn't make a difference?
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: the manpage is pretty much unmaintained (as is most of the documentation). Also, it is hard to find out whether you run a VM in a race-free way.
<YichaoYu[m]> I mean shouldn't the default be something like I don't care and so it should work?
<maz> it is also an ABI issue. Not specifying 'exclude_guest' implies that you can count guest events should you run one. however, we don't support it.
<YichaoYu[m]> k
<maz> no, the default should be something that reflects reality.,
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<YichaoYu[m]> and for specifying the event, instead of using PERF_TYPE_RAW or PERF_TYPE_HARDWARE, I should use the /sys/bus/event_source/devices/apple_{firestorm,icestorm}_pmu/type instead?
<YichaoYu[m]> what does it take for teaching the kernel how to count instructions and cycles across cores?
<YichaoYu[m]> (and re exclude_guest, it's just that almost none of the simple example code I've found mentioned that, which is kinda fair since it's new in 3.2. it's not until I straced perf that I gave it a try....)
<jannau> marcan: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/alarm-PKGBUILDs/tree/rust-page-sizes works well enough to rebuild itself on 16k (native asahi) and 4k (vm with 4k kernel)
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<jannau> YichaoYu[m]: the problem with counting cycles over different cpu core types is that you don't know what 1000 cycles mean
<jannau> 900 / 100 performance/efficiency core cycles is different than 100 / 900 performance/efficiency core cycles
<YichaoYu[m]> true, but it's unfortunate that the default `perf stat` is a bit useless, and also instructions count should at least work across cores...
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<YichaoYu[m]> (also I felt like between cpu frequency change and hitting different bottleneck in different part of the code I've already accepted that unless the code is fully warmed up the number might be difficult to interpret = = .....)
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<YichaoYu[m]> I found a few simple ones that are clearly related to memory access and branches but if someone have figured it out already I don't need to redo it...
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<jannau> YichaoYu[m]: there's /usr/share/kpep/a14.plist see https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2021-08-17#30153135; how to get something useful out of it
<YichaoYu[m]> trying to find the a14.plist and then realize that I'm under linux.....
<YichaoYu[m]> but before I go taking a deep look at any of these, do any of these count as sources that can be used to write a linux driver?
<YichaoYu[m]> also how was the current list in the kernel generate? is it known to be complete?
<YichaoYu[m]> oh I see someone mentioned rr there already. yeah I'm mostly interested in finding reliable counters so that rr can work
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: (catching up) counting cycles (or any other event) across CPU types makes no sense. it's like adding apples and oranges.
<maz> the driver supports all the possible events. you just need to convert that file into the JSON format that the perf tool uses, and you'll get all the events with a nice description.
<YichaoYu[m]> does it mean that I can pass in something that isn't in m1_pmu_events to perf_event_open?
<YichaoYu[m]> since just from counting lines, m1_pmu_events only have 31 listed but https://github.com/dougallj/applecpu/blob/main/timer-hacks/bench.py#L85 has about twice that
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: read again. the driver supports all 256 events. m1_pmu_events only describes events that have some special affinity.
<YichaoYu[m]> Ah yeah missed that…. I thought the unknow_xx is some twisted form of knowing….
<YichaoYu[m]> So what do we need to hook it up so that perf can understand them without referring to apple data?
<YichaoYu[m]> And does it mean that perf will never be able to print something that makes sense for cycle count?
<YichaoYu[m]> Even if the thread/process is pinned to one core?
<maz> you need to convert the magic (and copyrighted) apple file into something that perf can ingest *at build time*.
<maz> perf prints things that make sense to me, just as it does on any asymmetric system.
<maz> if you pin the thread to a single core and use the PMU that matches that core, you'll get sensible results. if you don't, well...
<YichaoYu[m]> I mean, if I do to want to use it, and for the purpose of putting those info into the kernel driver, does it need to be re’d?
<YichaoYu[m]> But perf print not counting for cycles if the process runs on the p core
<maz> you don't put *ANYTHING* in the kernel driver at all. you put the information in the userspace tool.
<YichaoYu[m]> Even for perf_type_hardware?
<maz> again: if you describe the event pertaining to the P core, perf will use the P core event.
<YichaoYu[m]> yeah I know that, but there are also generic hardware event
<YichaoYu[m]> if I don't want to use raw events
<maz> you don't need to use raw events if you describe things to the userspace tool. perf will convert things for you, just like with any other CPUs on this side of the universe.
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<YichaoYu[m]> as in `numactl --physcpubind=4 perf stat sleep 1` prints cycles + instructions unsupported
<YichaoYu[m]> but why shouldn't one put it in the kernel so that perf_type-hardware can be supported?
<maz> you don't specify a PMU, you get a random result. end of story.
<maz> because this is kernel bloat that we don't need.
<maz> userspace is the right place for this, just like any other PMU.
<maz> we can have that conversation on the list if you want.
<YichaoYu[m]> so you are saying PERF_TYPE_HARDWARE is useless?
<maz> mostly, yes.
<YichaoYu[m]> I've never heard of that argument before
<YichaoYu[m]> but that also means
<maz> mostly because there is no way you can map the events that current CPU implements onto what the in-kernel perf consider as "canonical" events.
<YichaoYu[m]> if I want to cound instructions
<YichaoYu[m]> and I don't want to pin
<YichaoYu[m]> there's no way to do that without wasting counters
<YichaoYu[m]> I'm not saying all of them should be mapped, only the ones that do have a cannonical counterpart
<maz> good luck mapping those. even better luck finding an accurate architectural description that spans x86 (which the canonical events originate from) and any arm64 CPU.
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<YichaoYu[m]> Why do I need luck to get the instructions count working?
<maz> because you stubbornly refuse to pass the command line argument that would make it work.
<YichaoYu[m]> Are you taking about getting perf to work with current kernel or finding information so it it can be put into the kernel?
<maz> again: the kernel side is *done*.
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<YichaoYu[m]> Well, I asked several questions and your answer to all of them has been that, even though some of them aren't only about kernel....... (full message at https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/SceEeaNNujVEkPZciOwZHrBL)
<YichaoYu[m]> I'm also talking from the perspective of directly calling `perf_event_open`
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<YichaoYu[m]> are you saying that even if I only care about clearly core-independent events like branch count or instruction count, I would have to do processor detection and figure out what kind of events I need?
<YichaoYu[m]> (also I'm at work now so I may not reply promptly....)
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: so am I. this really is the wrong forum for discussion, so please post on the list and Cc me and the other ARM perf maintainers.\
<YichaoYu[m]> I assume at least the last question (which was what I asked initially) belongs to here. Is any of these info upstremable?
<YichaoYu[m]> (I can try mailing list but so far I have very bad experience reporting any issues there)
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: no, this really is a generic question about asymmetric systems, specially about ARM big-little systems (which the M1 is an instance of).
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<YichaoYu[m]> no that's a generic question about copyright
<YichaoYu[m]> for that last question I'm asking if the json, or whatever other format, you use to make perf understand all the counters, can that go directly into perf/kernel source
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<maz> YichaoYu[m]: I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to give any advise on whether taking this information and dumping it in the perf tool is legal or not. personally, I'm not touching ot.
<maz> it*
<maz> you're welcome to do it at your own risk.
<YichaoYu[m]> Sure that’s fine. I assume doing complete blind testing should be fine and so I was asking if it worth doing it.
<maz> it would definitely be useful to have that information in the userspace tool. but if you are doing blind testing, please make your tests publicly available.
<YichaoYu[m]> marcan: I assume you know better (than I do)
<YichaoYu[m]> Yes that’s for sure
<YichaoYu[m]> I’m just running some loops and summarizing the results to take educated guesses.
<YichaoYu[m]> (And I was only doing that on the once in that list but I guess I should do all 256 of them )
<YichaoYu[m]> I’m not particularly interested in submitting any code for review (kernel or otherwise) but just playing with it to collect info. I do want to make type_hardware work though so I guess I can send an email to the kernel list….
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