ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
<smallville7123>
im just assuming the above would work
<i509vcb>
yes you could implement a compositor which presents to the system ui
<smallville7123>
nice
<i509vcb>
someone actually experimented with that and got smithay's test compositor, Anvil to work
<smallville7123>
:)
<smallville7123>
is signal.h used by libwayland itself or is it only used in tests/ ?
<smallville7123>
as posix signals doesn't exactly have a step-by-step guide on how to implement its api
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<smallville7123>
might abandon wayland for windows as it seems like, in windows, a nested window can be created using WS_CHILD when creating the window
<smallville7123>
[13:10] <i509vcb> someone actually experimented with that and got smithay's test compositor, Anvil to work
<smallville7123>
is the source available anywhere?
<smallville7123>
so, for windows, it seems like i can just use windows native window manager to implement a cross-process window-manager
<smallville7123>
and for linux and android, i will need to use wayland
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<smallville7123>
welp, sadly it is in rust
<smallville7123>
and python doesnt seem to have any stable cross-platform support
<smallville7123>
and python doesnt seem to have any stable cross-platform GUI support *
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<Soni>
can we have DOM?
<Soni>
just, bake DOM right into the protocol?
<Soni>
(well, DOM and styling really)
<Soni>
it'd be kinda awesome for screen reader support, both for daily use and screenshots (as in, screenshots that come with built-in screen reader support without the strict need for alt text)
<ManMower>
no
<Soni>
why not?
<daniels>
because at the point where the protocol contains 'the DOM', it contains the complete capability set of every client toolkit
<i509vcb>
There are some complicated questions around how it would be implemented or adopted.
<i509vcb>
How do you transport the DOM, it's too much data for the wire so you'd need a side channel
<i509vcb>
Servers would effectively need to implement a web view to actually work with the protocol
<i509vcb>
And on Linux your only reasonable choices would be WPEWebKit or fork Chromium
<i509vcb>
And then security implications could exist around pulling in an entire web browser framework
<daniels>
(as well as keeping up with that particular treadmill)
<Soni>
if every client's purpose is to render the fucking DOM then why do we need *Every Client* to have ITS OWN DOM RENDERER
<Soni>
sooo much RAM WASTED on DOM RENDERERS
<daniels>
because terminals and other native clients and games also exist?
<Soni>
i509vcb: it's not too much data for the wire, we've been doing it for decades. it's usually called HTML.
<daniels>
ChromiumOS does exist if you want a platform that is designed around displaying web content and nothing else
<i509vcb>
Wayland as a protocol kind of struggles when you give it huge strings over the wire
<Soni>
i509vcb: okay, so don't
<daniels>
(because it's not designed to transport massive strings, it's designed to display pixel content given to it by clients)
<ManMower>
if your goal is to save that ram, I guess the move would be to write a single DOM RENDERER that's better than all the others in all ways for every use case and make everyone use it. this isn't really a wayland problem though. :)
<Soni>
expose the DOM API, but no way to load a DOM
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<daniels>
Soni: you're describing a web browser
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<Soni>
daniels: no, there's no JS involved for it to be a browser
<Soni>
no JS, no navigation, no any of that stuff
<Soni>
just DOM and styling
<daniels>
you're describing a very large subset of a web browser
<i509vcb>
Even the most embeddable option I can think of, Servo is probably not good enough for production use
<Soni>
daniels: so yeet it out of the browser so we can have browsers that aren't a whole OS
<daniels>
either way, that's not what Wayland is - Wayland is designed to display graphical content given to it by clients, and give input events back to those clients. it's not a toolkit, it's not a web browser, etc. you can go design one of those systems, but that system isn't Wayland.
<Soni>
daniels: yes, so is the DOM
<Soni>
see, the DOM (with styles) is semantic graphical content
<Soni>
and it has events
<daniels>
you're making a semantic argument with no relevance to the discussion
<Soni>
so the client gives the DOM to the display server to render, and the display server gives the client DOM events
<daniels>
I understand the concept you're describing. I'm telling you that this concept is not Wayland. if you want to go make a project around that concept, then please do start one.
<Soni>
it should be in wayland so it can benefit from composition
<daniels>
that's your opinion, and not one shared by anyone else here
<Soni>
also, DOM has canvas, shove your OpenGL in there
<daniels>
Wayland also doesn't transport OpenGL
<Soni>
DOM is like the perfect display server protocol
<Soni>
except it isn't a protocol
<daniels>
sure, but it's not our display server protocol
<daniels>
and it won't be our display server protocol
<daniels>
please create a repository somewhere and start hacking on it
<daniels>
but Wayland is not going to be the (radically conceptually different) thing you're describing
<Soni>
every vendor is trying to kill the browser, meanwhile google is trying to be the browser
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<Soni>
if freedesktop had parts of a browser, it would change that
<daniels>
that isn't going to happen
<daniels>
but there are projects like Firefox and NetSurf and others that you could contribute to
<Soni>
that's the thing they're too big
<Soni>
breaking them apart enables more ppl to contribute
<Soni>
also it'd be nice to see cluster computing on the desktop
<Soni>
like let's say you wanna run discord. well, you have a cluster for a desktop, so you just run the discord process in one node, and the DOM in another.
<Soni>
they have their own RAM, their own CPU, and the discord isn't gonna lag the rest of your system
<emersion>
sorry, but this is off-topic
<Soni>
which is another reason wayland (or X11) should have DOM in the protocol
<daniels>
extremely
<emersion>
please find another channel to dicsuss this
<daniels>
^
<daniels>
probably something related to Plan9, since that sounds the most similar to the system you're describing