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<sven>
jannau: / axboe: so... uh.. can you guys try to set the nvme irq to IRQ_TYPE_EDGE_RISING and see if you can still reproduce the timeouts?
<sven>
(also seems to use randwrite+flush performance for me)
<kettenis>
use?
<sven>
erm..
<_jannau_>
I will tonight. do you mean s/use/improve/ ?
<sven>
*increase
<kettenis>
note that aic doesn't seem to have a way to configure level vs. edge
<sven>
i think those two take a different path in the core irq code though
<kettenis>
probably
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<axboe>
sven: was thinking last night, what prevents two writel() from running at the same time? I just cannot convince myself that the current situation is safe
<kettenis>
it should be possible to test whether the interrupt is really edge triggered or level triggered at the hardware level
<axboe>
running with that now, seems fine too (as expected)
<j`ey>
axboe: < sven> jannau: / axboe: so... uh.. can you guys try to set the nvme irq to IRQ_TYPE_EDGE_RISING and see if you can still reproduce the timeouts?
<axboe>
j`ey: I don't think this is an irq vs issue problem
<sven>
if i understand the memory model correctly (very big if) two stores to device memory from two separate cores will always issue both stores but their order isn't guaranteed
<j`ey>
axboe: just the messenger, sven wrote that while you were away
<axboe>
j`ey: gotcha
<maz>
sven: without other synchronisation, there is indeed no ordering.
<axboe>
but that should be fine, we don't need ordering here
<axboe>
as long as the writel is ordered with the memcpy, it doesn't matter if one issue ends up writing the tag before another
<maz>
writel has a DMB, so that part is safe.
<axboe>
sven: I can test the dtsi change
<axboe>
sven: s/IRQ_TYPE_LEVEL_HIGH/IRQ_TYPE_EDGE_RISING for nvme@393...?
<axboe>
sven: or do you want both
<sven>
just IRQ_TYPE_EDGE_RISING. also not totally convinced anymore at this point it will do anything different
<maz>
sven: well, it certainly has a very different behaviour at the interrupt controller level.
<axboe>
let's give it a shot...
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<axboe>
sven: huh that does seem to work, at least the usual "start all the things" combined with the full find and a randread iops test didn't cause any issues
<sven>
maz: ah, true. multi-tasking with $work right now and my brain doesn't seem to like that
<sven>
axboe: so i had some explanation why this might be the issue in the shower this morning but i can't put it together again right now :/
<kov>
Glanzmann, do you need that test with some specific environment/patch/config?
<Glanzmann>
kov: IIUC sven had the hope that it fixes our performance problems when running with a device tree that has: s/IRQ_TYPE_LEVEL_HIGH/IRQ_TYPE_EDGE_RISING/
<sven>
i think i just messed up there fwiw
<sven>
it seems to fix the random lockup but i don't think it improves flush/randwrite performance
<Glanzmann>
I see.
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<axboe>
Glanzmann: 56 iops indeed :)
<axboe>
that is miserable
<Glanzmann>
axboe: Thank you for testing. Worth a try. Almost as fast as my noname usb-2 stick.
<axboe>
Glanzmann: lol
<axboe>
looking at blktrace, some FWFW writes do indeed take forever
<axboe>
17-18ms
<_jannau_>
I will tonight. do you mean s/use/improve/ ?
<_jannau_>
err
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<axboe>
sven: still triggers hang with rising edge, just a bit harder to trigger
<axboe>
was poking at the slower flush
<sven>
yeah.. i've been reading some irq code and i haven't even found a different code path with the M1 interrupt controller yet
<sven>
so i'm just even more confused now :D
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<kettenis>
the hangs are seen with both AIC1 and AIC2 isn't it?
<_jannau_>
yes and cpu frequency scaling makes them much more likely. to the point that nobody has noticed them without it
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<axboe>
sven: seems that grabbing the cq lock really is required, still see timeouts/hangs with just serializing the issue itself
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<sven>
it smells like we are racing something in the irq handler that makes us miss the next interrupt for the completion :/
<kettenis>
I thought the dummy read was necessary in the case writes are posted
<kettenis>
but on these machines mmio to non-PCIE devices is explicitly non-posted
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<axboe>
sven: curious on how much you looked at the slow FLUSH
<axboe>
did some checking here, and the only fast flushes I see are the ones where there has been no writes since the last flush
<axboe>
which is unsurprising
<axboe>
even if we only did a single write, and that write was FUA, the flush is still slow
<axboe>
16.5 -> 17.5 msec
<sven>
That’s already more than I figured out
<axboe>
sven: have you looked at osx timings? I seem to recall you said it just does fewer flushes, but are all flushes slow there too
<sven>
the same thing happens on the T2 Macs with pci.c fwiw
<axboe>
sven: heh ok, curious
<axboe>
so it could very well be that the device just sucks at flushes and we're screwed
<sven>
I only looked at the commands it issued, but I can see if I can also get get the flush timing
<axboe>
on the data I collected, nothing else seems useful apart from the fact that writes-since-flush is always != for a slow flush, and only fast if writes-since-flush == 0
<axboe>
and even if there are no writes, it's still a 20-25 usec request
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<axboe>
outside of missing some weird init and not having timings for osx, guess I'm just going to mark it 'write through' for now :/
<marcan>
axboe: I have a suspicion that macos doesn't issue flushes and instead relies on having the proper last-gasp hooks to guarantee it'll issue one (and it will complete) if power is lost, or maybe that's outright guaranteed by the controller itself?
<axboe>
marcan: was thinking that's probably the case on osx, and hence nobody ever cared about flush latencies
<marcan>
I should test if macos does anything funky on the mac mini when pulling the power
<marcan>
let's see
<sven>
macOS does issues flushes but with a much lower frequency compared to linux when running the same fio command
<axboe>
marcan: if it's guaranteed by the controller itself, it should just not advertise a volatile write cache
<sven>
and you can lose data if you just hard reset the machine before a flush
<marcan>
yeah but that normally wouldn't happen
<sven>
the firmware will also complain about an unclean shutdown if you don’t clear that control layer enable but before rebooting but I haven’t seen any data loss from that
<sven>
*controller enable
<sven>
I think openbsd takes that “just never issue flushes” approach though
<Glanzmann>
axboe: Could you explain how to mark a device as write-through? Does that mean if I issue a sync in Linux that no flush will happen. Because this would be helpful for the m1 notebook owners to improve performance.
<axboe>
I just do: `echo "write through" > /sys/block/nvme0n1/queue/write_cache"` for now...
<axboe>
Glanzmann: ^^
<axboe>
Glanzmann: and yes, that's what it means
<Glanzmann>
axboe: Thanks.
<axboe>
Glanzmann: it'll bump your test case from 56 iops to 14k or something like that :)
<axboe>
alternatively, some sort of time based hack might make sense
<axboe>
"only issue flush if X seconds has passed since last issue"
<axboe>
kinda nasty, but safer
<Glanzmann>
axboe: Perfect. I was hopeing for such a workaround.
<Glanzmann>
axboe: With your little tunening, I already notice when doing a 'apt install -y fio' that it is faster. A lot faster. ;-)
<axboe>
Glanzmann: yeah, I noticed that too, just flies through the install part
<sven>
it wouldn’t be the first nasty hack we need for these machines :(
<marcan>
< axboe> "only issue flush if X seconds has passed since last issue" <- isn't that what laptop_mode used to do back in the day?
<marcan>
haven't seen any last-gasp stuff from macos
<axboe>
marcan: no, that was on dirty data writeback
<axboe>
side bar, I actually wrote laptop_mode back in the day
<marcan>
ha
<marcan>
also yeah, now I remember it was that *plus* I had an LD_PRELOAD to stop firefox from issuing syncs all the time and breaking it
<marcan>
:)
<axboe>
oh yeah, LD_PRELOAD hack was popular
<axboe>
but for this one, probably a 5 second period for flush would be useful
<marcan>
even 1 second tbh
<marcan>
I wonder what macos does
<marcan>
I wouldn't put it past apple to do some similar hack
<axboe>
yeah, might be useful to just benchmark for typical workloads
<axboe>
let me hack it up
<sven>
I’ve tried looking for their flush logic but ugh compiled iokit c++ code
<marcan>
I need to get some sleep, but yeah
<marcan>
sven: maybe just looking at flush commands from the HV and seeing if there is some logical distribution?
<marcan>
(in intervals9
<sven>
but it wouldn’t surprise me and would also fit that I only rarely saw flush commands in the HV
<sven>
yeah, just need to add some time stamp whenever the command was issued
<marcan>
at least for laptops this is a ~non issue, inherently, especially if we can make sure a flush gets issued on panic and other special cases like that
<marcan>
OTOH on the mac mini, if there is no last gasp signal, this means potential data loss
<marcan>
I need to look closer but I didn't see anything obvious going to nvme right now
<marcan>
that said, that thing keeps running for like >2 seconds after I pull the plug
<marcan>
so if there is no actual last gasp signal, that is one hack of a missed opportunity :p
<marcan>
who needs SSD backup caps when the entire system is low power and the PSU is built in? that's a free 2 second UPS.
<sven>
that’s quite a long time
<marcan>
turns out when your entire system sips power, that PSU main reservoir cap is pretty good...
<sven>
but then again.. it doesn’t even have the display drawing lots of power and the rest is very efficient
<marcan>
also note that this is in japan, which has the lowest AC voltage in the world, so worst possible case :)
<marcan>
anyway, I should get some sleep
<marcan>
I'll clean up kernel branches tomorrow, today I ended up spending most of the day on non-asahi stuff
<sven>
sounds good. We should figure out how to submit rtkit then.
<sven>
and hopefully once we figure out this weird missed irqs nvme as well
<marcan>
yup
<marcan>
did you look at the atomic stuff?
<marcan>
I kind of hate it but...
<sven>
yeah, I remember trying to implement it and then just leaving it for another day
<sven>
glad you took a shot at it ;)
<sven>
I’ll take a closer look tomorrow but it looked reasonable at first glance
<jannau>
I'll test dcp on top of spmi/work
<marcan>
I want to merge that if it's usable on all the machines these days too, so that will be useful
<jannau>
I haven't tested dcp on t600x yet
<marcan>
I imagine it won't work if nobody has tried it
<marcan>
at the very least the DCP DVA offset is different
<marcan>
that needs to go in the DT
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<jannau>
also the reserved regions changes are still very premature and require m1n1 changes
<jannau>
it might work if the region-id numbers in the adt are constant
<jannau>
for the premapped regions I'm still unsure whether to use regions from the carveout-memory-map or just scan the dart
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<alyssa>
marcan: oops? *sweat*
<alyssa>
most of the dcp driver code predates the t600x machines being released, don't sue me! :-p
<sven>
I think jannau volunteered to take over anyway :>
<axboe>
Glanzmann: let me know if you try the above and if there's any noticeable difference between that and using the write through hack
<sven>
:D
<axboe>
sven putting on a polite face ;)
<Glanzmann>
axboe: Will do so. ;-)
<sven>
I enjoy the occasional hack very much ;)
<axboe>
a 200x speedup at minimal risk warrants a hack ;)
<sven>
definitely!
<j`ey>
especially a non-invasive one
<axboe>
it really should be done at the nvme_ns level, or on the block side. but... would rather keep it local
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<Glanzmann>
axboe: About the 12k. Do you have an explanation why macos can do 18.9k and OpenBSD can do 31.2k? (OpenBSD don't do any flushes at all IIRC, but kettenis knows for sure).
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<axboe>
Glanzmann: not right now, no
<axboe>
even doing no flushes on linux will be about the same as 1 per second
<axboe>
so it's not the flushes at that point
<axboe>
might be differences in what O_SYNC provides?
<Glanzmann>
axboe: Maybe but there was also and end-fsync ...
<Glanzmann>
s/and/an/
<axboe>
Glanzmann: end_fsync is just an fsync() when all 1G have been written
<axboe>
so won't change much
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<Glanzmann>
Yep, but when doing I/O tests I sometimes notice that while the test is running throughput and iops are faster than when the fsync is commenced and than the results will be 1/3 or so less than what was shown during the workload.
<axboe>
if you change sync=1 to sync=dsync, for example, I get ~50K IOPS
<axboe>
Glanzmann: end_fsync will make a potentially big difference if you're just doing regular buffered writes
<axboe>
as otherwise the job may just be dirtying page cache, and run very fast
<axboe>
but not touch disk
<Glanzmann>
I see. I saw that probably while benchmarking nfs volumes.
<Glanzmann>
axboe: I wasn't aware of O_DSYNC. But I get the idea.
<Glanzmann>
After reading up on it.
<axboe>
it's similar to fdatasync
<axboe>
data vs data + metadata
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<Glanzmann>
I see. Btw. with your patch I don't notice any additional latency. And my fio test comes also back with: 64K, how can that be? https://pbot.rmdir.de/Bizcz1sc3Vs3EZ1raP31kA
<axboe>
maybe your drive is faster than mine?
<Glanzmann>
axboe: I have a macbook air with worse specs than yours.
<axboe>
maybe rm test file and see if it reproduces
<Glanzmann>
Nope.
<Glanzmann>
That was the first fio run I ever did on this particular installation. before I did not benchmark because I already notices that the issue was gone due to how fast apt was installing packages.
<Glanzmann>
noticed*
<axboe>
I get ~12k first pass, ~50k subsequent pass
<axboe>
you can add --unlink=1, then fio will remove the test file(s) after the run
<axboe>
if it created them
<axboe>
yeah that looks inline with what I see
<Glanzmann>
I see, will do that in the future. I normally have scripts rming the files between runs ...
<tpw_rules>
axboe: does that 1 sec flush patch violate any barrier guarantees made by fsync?
<axboe>
tpw_rules: certainly
<axboe>
it's more of an eventually consistent model ;)
<tpw_rules>
bleh, i really don't like that. is it possible to fix?
<axboe>
tpw_rules: make flushes faster on the nvme hw...
<axboe>
in a laptop, it should be fine
<tpw_rules>
i mean in theory, barriers are orthogonal to syncs
<tpw_rules>
to flushes, rather
<axboe>
we don't do barriers in linux anymore
<jannau>
marcan, sven: dcp works with rtkit from spmi/work
<tpw_rules>
idk if you are in the other channel, but there i asked, who flushes more than 50 times/sec except apt and fio?
<axboe>
tpw_rules: probably pretty limited
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<tpw_rules>
ahh. well if someone is tallying i don't like that patch
<axboe>
totally fair, I did preface it with a hack alert
<Glanzmann>
tpw_rules: I notice when I install debian packages (which syncs after extracting every package) that it is dog slow without a measuring tool. That is how I noticed that we had the problem in the first place. Because the nvme felt like a spinning disk.
<axboe>
obviously the issue here is hw and that's where it ultimately should be fixed. I have worked with vendors before on stupid issues like that, but I have no clout at apple, so...
<tpw_rules>
what does "sync" mean? surely you are not extracting more than 50 packages per second?
<axboe>
if the patch were to go anywhere, it would just mean that the default should be 0 and hence retain standard behavior
<tpw_rules>
axboe: oh okay
<axboe>
tpw_rules: if you do fsync, then you can get 2 flushes per write sometimes (data + meta)
<sven>
we can always file a radar with apple and have it disappear and get no feedback for years! ;)
<axboe>
sven: perfect
<axboe>
;)
<axboe>
surely somewhere on this project must have some good apple internal contacts?
<tpw_rules>
axboe: so apt runs down and fsyncs every file it's written?
<axboe>
s/somewhere/someone
<axboe>
tpw_rules: haven't checked, but looking at difference in speed, seems very likely
<tpw_rules>
would just one sync() have just one or perhaps two penalties?
<sven>
there are some apple employees lurking in this channel but I think the issue with this problem is that it only happens under linux
<axboe>
sven: I thought osx just does way fewer flushes? surely the actual flush is just as slow there. but I guess the end result is the same
<sven>
axboe: yeah, if fio (or anything else in userland) was slow on macos we could probably get it fixed. but with the way it currently is I don't have high hopes
<axboe>
tpw_rules: hard to say, depends on what is dirty in the page cache
<axboe>
sven: makes sense
<axboe>
if this patch got cleaned up and changed to 0 by default, then it could be applicable. I'd run it ;)
<sven>
i'm in favor of that patch fwiw
<axboe>
ok
<axboe>
got a meeting in a few, but I'll spend a bit of time to make it solid (multi-ns, ns ref, etc)
<sven>
i'll still try to confirm if macos does the same thing but it certainly looks like it does
* Glanzmann
I'm also of in favor for the patch, but I begged for months for it.
<sven>
measuring flush time there is a bit tricky because by the time I can figure out the command is a flush there's already usb and python in the way but i'll see what i can do
<axboe>
sven: at these completions rates, even serial would likely show it ;)
<sven>
fair :D
<tpw_rules>
if the default is 0 and that means the behavior doesn't change by default so the user can decide if they want to be unsafe, then i think it would be a reasonable patch
<axboe>
that'd be the plan. it's safe now, just not by default, you'd have to load it with the option to set flush_interval to 0
<tpw_rules>
so why did linux ditch the concept of barriers?
<tpw_rules>
because nobody else in the stack cared?
<axboe>
barriers were originally done by myself and chris mason, back in ~2001 as suse was looking for an EMC contract
<axboe>
we thought it was pretty nifty, but it was too complicated and didn't really yield much of a benefit
<axboe>
so at some point later in time it was abandoned for the much simpler write-and-wait
<axboe>
one idea back then was to propagate barriers into ordered commands on the hw, like tasks on SCSI
<axboe>
but that never came to fruition
<axboe>
sadly we never really got useful hw support beyond "flush the cache", which is sad
<axboe>
sad to say I avoid most papers on anything related to OS stuff
<sven>
~15-30 msec on macos for flushes (with all the additional delays introduced due to usb and python)
<axboe>
looks on par then
<tpw_rules>
and macos just coalesces flushes?
<axboe>
I only see two ranges here: ~20 usec if no writes have happened since last flush, ~20 msec if even a FUA write has happened
<axboe>
eg slow and fast, nothing really in between
<sven>
the python+usb delay is already bigger than 20 usec afaict
<sven>
let's see if i can find a fast flush. but so far i've only seen the slow ones
<axboe>
fast ones are very rare on linux at least, we generally don't do that.
<axboe>
you might have the synthetically issue them on osx to test
<axboe>
and saying that without knowing what kind of passthrough support osx has
<tpw_rules>
basically that paper is about separating fsync into two functions: one that just preserves ordering and so doesn't have to flush the cache, and one that enforces durability and ordering. in most cases only the former can be used, so you get crash-safe guarantees without paying the significant flush cost
<axboe>
with the removal of barriers, there's zero notion of ordering in the linux IO stack
<axboe>
with multi-queue, it would be difficult too...
<sven>
ok, also found a ~20x write -> flush -> 1x write -> flush sequence where both flushs are slow as well
<axboe>
yeah that's what I see here too, doesn't matter if it's 1 or 1000 writes
<axboe>
takes the same amount of time
<sven>
yeah
<axboe>
only exception is zero writes
<sven>
so it looks like macos doesn't have any kind of magic to make them faster
<axboe>
so they just do fewer, fs specific
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<axboe>
checked the samsung drive in my other laptop, and it's about 6x faster for flushes
<sven>
and if only macos would now let me ssh to it again I could run fio with randwrite once more to see if there's a pattern for the issued flushes
<axboe>
I'd be curious if the flushes impact read latencies
<axboe>
I'll come up with a few test cases
<sven>
can't see any obvious pattern and it's getting late here. i'll take a closer look tomorrow
<Glanzmann>
sven: Have a good night sleep. I'm curious if you find something.
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<kettenis>
I can confirm that OpenBSD only does a disk cache flush when a filesystem is unmounted, when an explicit cache flush ioctl is issued or when the machine is suspended or powered down
<kettenis>
I think that is pretty much the traditional UNIX behaviour:
<kettenis>
if you pull the plug you pray that fsck can restore your filesystem to a consistent state and accept that you lose data
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