ChanServ changed the topic of #dri-devel to: <ajax> nothing involved with X should ever be unable to find a bar
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<alyssa>
jenatali: Microsoft is really underpaying you, huh?
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<DrNick>
Windows secured the desktop with the introduction of Aero Glass
<jekstrand>
alyssa: jenatali hasn't implemented wabbly windows or cube transitions yet. They're the two missing features. I'm sure he'll get his promotion after he's done that.
<jekstrand>
Now we wait for the forum comments to start rolling in. I'm sure it'll be entertaining.
<jekstrand>
Quick! Someone go start some good rumors. If I'm not rumored to be working on Broadcom WiFi drivers for Windows by tomorrow, I'll be dissapointed. (-:
<HdkR>
I wish you luck on your Broadcom firmware blob endeavours. Dealing with the backplane shenanigans there isn't very fun :P
* kisak
looks around
<kisak>
very long commutes means the first mesa dev in space
<jekstrand>
If someone gave me a ride to the International Space Station, I'd totally submit a patch from there. :)
<jekstrand>
It'd probably have to be a crocus patch, though. They hardware they're running up there is pretty old last I knew.
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<alyssa>
jekstrand: I'm down for a space crocus patch
<alyssa>
though idk why you'd be working on crocus at the Broadcom wireless team (-:
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<jekstrand>
Gotta do something in my free time.
<jekstrand>
Not sure what time zone I'd use for the patch date, though.
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<HdkR>
Spacestation uses UTC, so easy enough :P
<jekstrand>
WFM
<DrNick>
my rumor: custom video hardware for netflix game streaming
<jekstrand>
That could be fun
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<alyssa>
DrNick: as a netflix employee or as a valve initiative?
<jekstrand>
Or Epic or EA... Valve's not the only one who'd want to get in on the streaming gig.
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<daniels>
jekstrand: hope you enjoy your work on Metal and LLVM!
<jekstrand>
Nah. GCC for GPUs all the way!
<DrNick>
alyssa: netflix employee
<DrNick>
its important to make your rumors just past the edge of plausibility
<DrNick>
is netflix going to get into game streaming? maybe. are they going to make custom GPUs to do it? probably not.
<dcbaker>
jekstrand: working on a new even lower level API at khronos because vulkan has become too bloated
<HdkR>
Nice. It's even closer, you could call it Metal
<HdkR>
Nobody has that name taken. In Khronos.
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<hikiko>
hi, sorry for the naive question but what is amber? I tried to build mesa pulling the new changes in a really old branch and received this message: Problem encountered: Mesa's main branch no longer has any "classic" drivers, use the "amber" branch instead.
<hikiko>
hmm it seems that i965/i915 etc have been removed but then what -Ddri-drivers option should I use to build iris?
<Kayden>
-Dgallium-drivers=iris
<Kayden>
21.3.x is going to live on as "amber" which is the last branch still containing the classic drivers
<Kayden>
-Ddri-drivers was only for classic
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<x512>
Why not split Mesa into multiple repositories? mesa-base, gallium-drivers, dri-drivers etc.
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<hikiko>
thanks Kayden!
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<hikiko>
Kayden, can I ask you one more question since you are here... I've found a bug in a drm test and fixed it (in /tests/kms/kms-steal-crtc.c we pass a pointer to a fb where the planes are packed in a function but we should put each in an array). Is there any documentation on how to run kms/drm tests to check it before I send it?
<hikiko>
I found the problem because I saw a warning about the size of the variable we pass in the function while building libdrm I didn't run any tests
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<mareko>
I have an idea: one person from each company that hasn't hired jekstrand will say so, and then we'll see who remains
<bnieuwenhuizen>
mareko: what if he decided for a newcomer in the MEsa space, like Imagination or ARM?
<mareko>
then we'll know it's a company who's a newcomer
<daniels>
I wonder what kind of odds you could get on SGI or Matrox or something
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<jenatali>
Clearly Microsoft poached him so we can double our contributors
<bnieuwenhuizen>
well he also said his employer promised him no WSI work, which immediately discounts a lot of the companies working on mesa regularly
<danvet>
daniels, in true uk fashion, you're opening up a clearing house on this bet?
<daniels>
danvet: I'll need you to open up an account to stash the cash
<danvet>
ah we're going true uk betting, including laundering and tuning the odds :-P
<danvet>
I wouldn't recommend .ch for this anymore, but I can connect you to friends in .li, I heard they're still open for this kind of business
<daniels>
ah yes, don't we all have friends in Liechtenstinian banking
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<mareko>
does anything on X use modifiers? or not yet?
<bnieuwenhuizen>
IIRC if you use modesetting on some select kernel versions
<bnieuwenhuizen>
otherwise only Xwayland
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<emersion>
modesetting doesn't do modifiers by default, there's an option to force it
<emersion>
but yeah, only Xwayland does modifiers
<mareko>
can I run Steam and Wine on Wayland?
<mareko>
with a wayland compositor, not X-based
<emersion>
yes
<emersion>
any X11 app should work via Xwayland
<emersion>
note, some wayland compositors don't support modifiers
<emersion>
mutter doesn't enable them by default iirc
<emersion>
at least not on all configurations
<alyssa>
emersion: Speaking of ... any advice for someone hypothetically switching from GNOME to sway?
<alyssa>
Asking for a frien'
<alyssa>
🙃
<emersion>
alyssa: my advice would be to read the wiki and ask questions on IRC. everything on GNOME works pretty much OOTB, but sway isn't a DE so you'll need to manually configure screen sharing, desktop UI elements, etc
<alyssa>
Right... that's what's been keeping be to DE's in general tbh
<alyssa>
*me
<emersion>
sway has some defaults (for the bar, lockscreen, etc), but doesn't provide any wifi/bluetooth menu and so on
<alyssa>
*nod*
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<steev>
waybar > swaybar
* emersion
uses swaybar :P
<dviola>
emersion: what is that option to force modifiers with modesetting?
<emersion>
no idea
<emersion>
note, it breaks stuff on intel
<emersion>
as in you get black screens in some situations
<steev>
though my c630 looks pretty much identical, and i just have per host includes for the different sway setup (wish i could do that with waybar too)
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<airlied>
x512[m]: splitting repos would introduce apis and abis we dont want
<jadahl>
dviola: poke at org.gnome.mutter via gsettings and dconf, you'll find a 'experimental-features' where you can add it. but yes, it needs to be turned off again in some situations on intel (multi head bandwidth related)
<dviola>
jadahl: thanks, I'm curious if it can be used/enabled outside of mutter/gnome (for example, in window managers such as i3/openbox), I wonder if this issue will be fixed by it: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/4369
<dviola>
probably requires some kind of compositor, no?
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<airlied>
agd5f: /home/airlied/devel/kernel/dim/src/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu/amdgpu_vkms.c: In function ‘amdgpu_vkms_sw_fini’:
<airlied>
/home/airlied/devel/kernel/dim/src/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu/amdgpu_vkms.c:524:34: error: ‘struct amdgpu_vkms_output’ has no member named ‘vblank_hrtimer’524 | if (adev->amdgpu_vkms_output[i].vblank_hrtimer.function)
<airlied>
is there some missing prereq I need in drm-next?
<jadahl>
dviola: in wayland, the window manager and compositor tends to be the same process. outside of gnome there are e.g. kde's kwin, sway, weston, and more
<dviola>
jadahl: right
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<x512>
jadahl: so if it crash, everything is lost. In X11 window manager can crash and restart without problems.
<x512>
Wayland architecture is less reliable then X11.
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<emersion>
i'd say less moving parts means more reliable :P
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<DrNick>
I'd say a 30 year project is more reliable than a 5 year old project
<DrNick>
even if the design is fundamentally flawed
<emersion>
it depends
<emersion>
the 5 year old project has significantly less lines of code for one
<emersion>
but oh well
<DrNick>
some of those lines are a javascript interpreter
<emersion>
oh, libwayland doesn't embed a JS interpreter last time i checked
<Company>
didn't X come with its own dll loader?
<DrNick>
we don't speak of that
<DrNick>
it was removed, let the past stay dead
<libv>
35ys, and soon 13ys
<imirkin>
emersion: probably in reference to gnome-shell? i know it uses css, dunno about js.
<libv>
definitely not 5.
<emersion>
imirkin: yeah it uses JS for a lot of its shell logic, and that JS code is running in the compositor
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<imirkin>
i definitely like the idea (and practice) in X that the WM is a completely separate actor from the clients. so if the WM crashes (or you need to restart it for whatever reason) the clients are largely unaware
<emersion>
what if Xorg crashes?
<imirkin>
emersion: then you're sunk :)
<imirkin>
but hopefully you're using a DDX which is very simple and has been battle-tested against such things
<emersion>
some wayland compositors have the WM part in a separate client
<imirkin>
(i.e. libGL is out if you want that sort of thing)
<emersion>
example: river
<emersion>
but that doesn't really buy you a lot of reliability in any case
<emersion>
a wayland compositor with all the complicated logic in helper clients is a reliable design
<imirkin>
i don't necessarily take any issue with wayland protocol-level design
<imirkin>
(not sufficiently familiar with it to make an informed opinion either way)
<imirkin>
i take issue with the over-reliance on libGL to be rock-stable
<imirkin>
i take this issue with proponents of xf86-video-modesetting, and any wayland compositors
<bnieuwenhuizen>
anecdotally I've never had Xserver crash outside of full GPU hang cases. Making no guesses as to why though
<emersion>
it's been a few years my wayland compositor built from the latest tip has crashed on me
<imirkin>
yeah, i'm not necessarily commenting on the compositors themselves, but rather their reliance on libGL
<emersion>
yeah, i agree libGL isn't a small and rock-stable dependency
<bnieuwenhuizen>
IMO having a strategy to recover seamlessly from crashes just seems like a good idea though pretty much no matter how you think about avoiding crashes
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<HdkR>
Whoa. X had its own dynamic loader? Wacky
<imirkin>
HdkR: presumably necessitated by supporting an ungodly number of different platforms?
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<x512>
Original UNIX had no dynamic library support? Or binary drivers support was required?
<HdkR>
Shouldn't each ungodly platform have had its own? Kind of surprising if one doesn't
<HdkR>
The past sounds like a bad time :P
<imirkin>
HdkR: well, probably did, but perhaps was too different? dunno. this is decades before my time ;)
<airlied>
HdkR: the loader also provided a platform ABI for binary drivers to rely on
<HdkR>
ah
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<DrNick>
<X512> "Original UNIX had no dynamic..." <- it was to allow hardware vendors to supply one binary blob that worked on multiple unixes
<DrNick>
during the era when the kernel wasn't involved in graphics at all
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<Company>
bnieuwenhuizen: I think recovering from crashes is impossible to get right
<Company>
for the generic case, maybe, but you need to recover the state that the client expects the connection to be in
<Company>
imirkin: I think the bigger problem with gnome-shell is that the panel runs in the same process as the compositor, not so much the window manager
<imirkin>
Company: ok, but that's just an unforced error :)
<Company>
imirkin: and the panel does everything from a11y to bluetooth to notifications to calendar to network manager
<Company>
depends
<imirkin>
what does it depend on?
<Company>
gnome-shell has the overview and that includes the app windows
<imirkin>
set up a protocol to receive the necessary info
<Company>
and it started out as an X WM
<Company>
and compositing manager
<Company>
so while it's an unfortunate situation as a Wayland compositor, it was probably the right choice back when it was made
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<Company>
also, I'm the biggest fan of the shell guys splitting out the panel into its own process
<Company>
because it'd make my goal of rewriting it in GTK much easier