ChanServ changed the topic of #dri-devel to: <ajax> nothing involved with X should ever be unable to find a bar
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<alyssa> jenatali: Microsoft is really underpaying you, huh?
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<DrNick> Windows secured the desktop with the introduction of Aero Glass
<jekstrand> alyssa: jenatali hasn't implemented wabbly windows or cube transitions yet. They're the two missing features. I'm sure he'll get his promotion after he's done that.
<jekstrand> Now we wait for the forum comments to start rolling in. I'm sure it'll be entertaining.
<jekstrand> Quick! Someone go start some good rumors. If I'm not rumored to be working on Broadcom WiFi drivers for Windows by tomorrow, I'll be dissapointed. (-:
<HdkR> I wish you luck on your Broadcom firmware blob endeavours. Dealing with the backplane shenanigans there isn't very fun :P
* kisak looks around
<kisak> very long commutes means the first mesa dev in space
<jekstrand> If someone gave me a ride to the International Space Station, I'd totally submit a patch from there. :)
<jekstrand> It'd probably have to be a crocus patch, though. They hardware they're running up there is pretty old last I knew.
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<alyssa> jekstrand: I'm down for a space crocus patch
<alyssa> though idk why you'd be working on crocus at the Broadcom wireless team (-:
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<jekstrand> Gotta do something in my free time.
<jekstrand> Not sure what time zone I'd use for the patch date, though.
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<HdkR> Spacestation uses UTC, so easy enough :P
<jekstrand> WFM
<DrNick> my rumor: custom video hardware for netflix game streaming
<jekstrand> That could be fun
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<alyssa> DrNick: as a netflix employee or as a valve initiative?
<jekstrand> Or Epic or EA... Valve's not the only one who'd want to get in on the streaming gig.
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<daniels> jekstrand: hope you enjoy your work on Metal and LLVM!
<jekstrand> Nah. GCC for GPUs all the way!
<DrNick> alyssa: netflix employee
<DrNick> its important to make your rumors just past the edge of plausibility
<DrNick> is netflix going to get into game streaming? maybe. are they going to make custom GPUs to do it? probably not.
<dcbaker> jekstrand: working on a new even lower level API at khronos because vulkan has become too bloated
<HdkR> Nice. It's even closer, you could call it Metal
<HdkR> Nobody has that name taken. In Khronos.
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<hikiko> hi, sorry for the naive question but what is amber? I tried to build mesa pulling the new changes in a really old branch and received this message: Problem encountered: Mesa's main branch no longer has any "classic" drivers, use the "amber" branch instead.
<hikiko> hmm it seems that i965/i915 etc have been removed but then what -Ddri-drivers option should I use to build iris?
<Kayden> -Dgallium-drivers=iris
<Kayden> 21.3.x is going to live on as "amber" which is the last branch still containing the classic drivers
<Kayden> -Ddri-drivers was only for classic
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<x512> Why not split Mesa into multiple repositories? mesa-base, gallium-drivers, dri-drivers etc.
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<hikiko> thanks Kayden!
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<hikiko> Kayden, can I ask you one more question since you are here... I've found a bug in a drm test and fixed it (in /tests/kms/kms-steal-crtc.c we pass a pointer to a fb where the planes are packed in a function but we should put each in an array). Is there any documentation on how to run kms/drm tests to check it before I send it?
<hikiko> I found the problem because I saw a warning about the size of the variable we pass in the function while building libdrm I didn't run any tests
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<mareko> I have an idea: one person from each company that hasn't hired jekstrand will say so, and then we'll see who remains
<bnieuwenhuizen> mareko: what if he decided for a newcomer in the MEsa space, like Imagination or ARM?
<mareko> then we'll know it's a company who's a newcomer
<daniels> I wonder what kind of odds you could get on SGI or Matrox or something
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<jenatali> Clearly Microsoft poached him so we can double our contributors
<bnieuwenhuizen> well he also said his employer promised him no WSI work, which immediately discounts a lot of the companies working on mesa regularly
<danvet> daniels, in true uk fashion, you're opening up a clearing house on this bet?
<daniels> danvet: I'll need you to open up an account to stash the cash
<danvet> ah we're going true uk betting, including laundering and tuning the odds :-P
<danvet> I wouldn't recommend .ch for this anymore, but I can connect you to friends in .li, I heard they're still open for this kind of business
<daniels> ah yes, don't we all have friends in Liechtenstinian banking
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<mareko> does anything on X use modifiers? or not yet?
<bnieuwenhuizen> IIRC if you use modesetting on some select kernel versions
<bnieuwenhuizen> otherwise only Xwayland
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<emersion> modesetting doesn't do modifiers by default, there's an option to force it
<emersion> but yeah, only Xwayland does modifiers
<mareko> can I run Steam and Wine on Wayland?
<mareko> with a wayland compositor, not X-based
<emersion> yes
<emersion> any X11 app should work via Xwayland
<emersion> note, some wayland compositors don't support modifiers
<emersion> mutter doesn't enable them by default iirc
<emersion> at least not on all configurations
<alyssa> emersion: Speaking of ... any advice for someone hypothetically switching from GNOME to sway?
<alyssa> Asking for a frien'
<alyssa> 🙃
<emersion> alyssa: my advice would be to read the wiki and ask questions on IRC. everything on GNOME works pretty much OOTB, but sway isn't a DE so you'll need to manually configure screen sharing, desktop UI elements, etc
<alyssa> Right... that's what's been keeping be to DE's in general tbh
<alyssa> *me
<emersion> sway has some defaults (for the bar, lockscreen, etc), but doesn't provide any wifi/bluetooth menu and so on
<alyssa> *nod*
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<steev> waybar > swaybar
* emersion uses swaybar :P
<dviola> emersion: what is that option to force modifiers with modesetting?
<emersion> no idea
<emersion> note, it breaks stuff on intel
<emersion> as in you get black screens in some situations
<dviola> ok, thanks
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<steev> though my c630 looks pretty much identical, and i just have per host includes for the different sway setup (wish i could do that with waybar too)
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<airlied> x512[m]: splitting repos would introduce apis and abis we dont want
<jadahl> dviola: poke at org.gnome.mutter via gsettings and dconf, you'll find a 'experimental-features' where you can add it. but yes, it needs to be turned off again in some situations on intel (multi head bandwidth related)
<dviola> jadahl: thanks, I'm curious if it can be used/enabled outside of mutter/gnome (for example, in window managers such as i3/openbox), I wonder if this issue will be fixed by it:
<dviola> probably requires some kind of compositor, no?
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<airlied> agd5f: /home/airlied/devel/kernel/dim/src/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu/amdgpu_vkms.c: In function ‘amdgpu_vkms_sw_fini’:
<airlied> /home/airlied/devel/kernel/dim/src/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu/amdgpu_vkms.c:524:34: error: ‘struct amdgpu_vkms_output’ has no member named ‘vblank_hrtimer’524 | if (adev->amdgpu_vkms_output[i].vblank_hrtimer.function)
<airlied> is there some missing prereq I need in drm-next?
<jadahl> dviola: in wayland, the window manager and compositor tends to be the same process. outside of gnome there are e.g. kde's kwin, sway, weston, and more
<dviola> jadahl: right
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<x512> jadahl: so if it crash, everything is lost. In X11 window manager can crash and restart without problems.
<x512> Wayland architecture is less reliable then X11.
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<emersion> i'd say less moving parts means more reliable :P
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<DrNick> I'd say a 30 year project is more reliable than a 5 year old project
<DrNick> even if the design is fundamentally flawed
<emersion> it depends
<emersion> the 5 year old project has significantly less lines of code for one
<emersion> but oh well
<DrNick> some of those lines are a javascript interpreter
<emersion> oh, libwayland doesn't embed a JS interpreter last time i checked
<Company> didn't X come with its own dll loader?
<DrNick> we don't speak of that
<DrNick> it was removed, let the past stay dead
<libv> 35ys, and soon 13ys
<imirkin> emersion: probably in reference to gnome-shell? i know it uses css, dunno about js.
<libv> definitely not 5.
<emersion> imirkin: yeah it uses JS for a lot of its shell logic, and that JS code is running in the compositor
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<imirkin> i definitely like the idea (and practice) in X that the WM is a completely separate actor from the clients. so if the WM crashes (or you need to restart it for whatever reason) the clients are largely unaware
<emersion> what if Xorg crashes?
<imirkin> emersion: then you're sunk :)
<imirkin> but hopefully you're using a DDX which is very simple and has been battle-tested against such things
<emersion> some wayland compositors have the WM part in a separate client
<imirkin> (i.e. libGL is out if you want that sort of thing)
<emersion> example: river
<emersion> but that doesn't really buy you a lot of reliability in any case
<emersion> a wayland compositor with all the complicated logic in helper clients is a reliable design
<imirkin> i don't necessarily take any issue with wayland protocol-level design
<imirkin> (not sufficiently familiar with it to make an informed opinion either way)
<imirkin> i take issue with the over-reliance on libGL to be rock-stable
<imirkin> i take this issue with proponents of xf86-video-modesetting, and any wayland compositors
<bnieuwenhuizen> anecdotally I've never had Xserver crash outside of full GPU hang cases. Making no guesses as to why though
<emersion> it's been a few years my wayland compositor built from the latest tip has crashed on me
<imirkin> yeah, i'm not necessarily commenting on the compositors themselves, but rather their reliance on libGL
<emersion> yeah, i agree libGL isn't a small and rock-stable dependency
<bnieuwenhuizen> IMO having a strategy to recover seamlessly from crashes just seems like a good idea though pretty much no matter how you think about avoiding crashes
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<HdkR> Whoa. X had its own dynamic loader? Wacky
<imirkin> HdkR: presumably necessitated by supporting an ungodly number of different platforms?
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<x512> Original UNIX had no dynamic library support? Or binary drivers support was required?
<HdkR> Shouldn't each ungodly platform have had its own? Kind of surprising if one doesn't
<HdkR> The past sounds like a bad time :P
<imirkin> HdkR: well, probably did, but perhaps was too different? dunno. this is decades before my time ;)
<airlied> HdkR: the loader also provided a platform ABI for binary drivers to rely on
<HdkR> ah
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<DrNick> <X512> "Original UNIX had no dynamic..." <- it was to allow hardware vendors to supply one binary blob that worked on multiple unixes
<DrNick> during the era when the kernel wasn't involved in graphics at all
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<Company> bnieuwenhuizen: I think recovering from crashes is impossible to get right
<Company> for the generic case, maybe, but you need to recover the state that the client expects the connection to be in
<Company> imirkin: I think the bigger problem with gnome-shell is that the panel runs in the same process as the compositor, not so much the window manager
<imirkin> Company: ok, but that's just an unforced error :)
<Company> imirkin: and the panel does everything from a11y to bluetooth to notifications to calendar to network manager
<Company> depends
<imirkin> what does it depend on?
<Company> gnome-shell has the overview and that includes the app windows
<imirkin> set up a protocol to receive the necessary info
<Company> and it started out as an X WM
<Company> and compositing manager
<Company> so while it's an unfortunate situation as a Wayland compositor, it was probably the right choice back when it was made
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<Company> also, I'm the biggest fan of the shell guys splitting out the panel into its own process
<Company> because it'd make my goal of rewriting it in GTK much easier
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