ChanServ changed the topic of #freedesktop to: https://www.freedesktop.org infrastructure and online services || for questions about freedesktop.org projects, please see each project's contact || for discussions about specifications, please use https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xdg or xdg@lists.freedesktop.org
<jrayhawk>
I am asking what request your web browser is making that is returning the source.
<jrayhawk>
An account on the server was required to modify the htdigest file because freedesktop.org has a history of admins setting up public account registration and then disappearing and letting the domain pagerank crash as the wiki gets overloaded with malware and spam
<jrayhawk>
do we have social technology for incentivizing active moderation these days?
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<jrayhawk>
This really strikes me as a deeply inappropriate documentation system unless page history is viewable on console browsers.
<jrayhawk>
Nouveau has fewer issues with this since it does not have a legacy of finnicky old EXA setups to struggle with.
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<pq>
jrayhawk, the Nouveau wiki "edit" button certainly works for me. It goes exactly to the URL the "edit" button link says it's going to.
<pq>
and similarly the "page history" button goes to the git history of the page in question.
<pq>
the front page history seems to go back all they way to the conversion from Moin to Mdwm 9 years ago, authored by you if I'm not mistaken.
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<pq>
jrayhawk, as for the spam problem, being a git repository requires someone with Developer access to land changes, so review is built-in to the editing workflow now.
<pq>
jrayhawk, I don't think you can look at Gitlab with curl easily. Just use a browser of git.
<pq>
*or git
<pq>
I also don't think Gitlab works at all without Javascript.
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<jrayhawk>
The correct solution is to provide access to documentation, including historical documentation, in graphically-constrained environments, bandwidth-constrained environments, security-constrained environments, and strange platforms. This is done by making http references labelled "source" return something resembling source, and making usable history references that do the same.
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<jrayhawk>
Having the templates point to cgit again would work fine for this purpose, and we could provide further links within cgit to gitlab resources.
<eric_engestrom>
jrayhawk: fyi if you take that url and replace /blob/ with /raw/ you get the raw text instead of the html page containing the text
<jrayhawk>
Ah, then we can add another link to the ikiwiki template for that without real issue. It'd then just be history being a problem.
<daniels>
I don't think it's a sensible requirement for 3D-accelerating graphics projects to be usable in lynx
<jrayhawk>
This is about the whole of freedesktop.org.
<daniels>
right, but the desktop is mostly about ... desktops
<jrayhawk>
Yes, including helping people with broken desktops.
<daniels>
I don't think there are a huge body of people for whom being able to easily access wiki history from lynx would solve a problem
<daniels>
besides, as noted, the git repository is still available to clone
<jrayhawk>
Wiki history is not published with software releases, including pre-git releases on pre-git platforms; this is giving up on documenting legacy platforms in an extremely obnoxious way.
<daniels>
karolherbst: I'd definitely be in favour of moving everyone to something more consistent & accessible for sure. the big problem with moving www.fd.o over is that it is _massive_ because www.fd.o/Software/ tends to contains everyone's release tarballs, so we'd need to set up some kind of accessible storage/archive system. it's very doable but quite a bit of work.
<daniels>
karolherbst: if someone wants to pick it up then I'll happily help, but I've been trying to not be an admin for about 3 years now
<daniels>
(well ok, more like 15)
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<jrayhawk>
dbus would be an example of a freedesktop.org not-exclusively-desktop project that has wiki history going back to 2006 i.e. pre-git platforms
<jrayhawk>
there are plenty of similar such projects
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<tomeu>
daniels: bentiss: can any of you give me a token to re-register a runner (its name has changed)?
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<bentiss>
tomeu: are you already sorted out?
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<karolherbst>
jrayhawk: I honestly don't care about users doing terminal only stuff, sooo... just use a proper web browser
<karolherbst>
daniels: yeah.. at this point I was more wondering about "do we want to get rid of that ikiwiki cgi stuff"
<tomeu>
bentiss: not yet
<karolherbst>
"The correct solution is to provide access to ..., in graphically-constrained environments," why is that? that doens't sound like a solution to me
<karolherbst>
or the other restritions
<karolherbst>
if somebody wants to live in the IT security world of 2000, be my guest, just don't let anybody else suffer from it
<karolherbst>
also.. this is only about _editing_ the wiki. You can look at the wiki from any platform you want
<bentiss>
tomeu: sent you one in PM
<karolherbst>
and moving the wiki to gitlab instances doesn't change the fact that the actual rendered pages look the same as before (with minor internal changes)
<karolherbst>
So I honestly don't see the issue here...
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<karolherbst>
also.. what do you mean by "pre-git platforms"?!?
<daniels>
karolherbst: before ikiwiki, some wikis were on MoinMoin
<daniels>
which is why the nouveau wiki has one big 'add everything' commit, because the moin -> iki import didn't keep any history
<daniels>
so no change to the status quo ...
<karolherbst>
okay, sure, what does that have to do with wikis being on ikiwiki today
<karolherbst>
also.. I highly doubt anybody is interested in that kind of history
<karolherbst>
maybe I should have explained more in detail, that this is imply moving from cgit to gitlab and instead of doing ikiwiki CGI it uses gitlab CI to render pages... oh well...
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<daniels>
I don’t understand how using a text-based web browser to view git history is better than using a CLI git client to view git history
<jrayhawk>
Not every system that needs to use the wiki and its history is going to be practically able to do so.
<jrayhawk>
Either due to age, security constraints, bandwidth constraints, or being an embedded/industrial system constraints.
<jrayhawk>
Freedesktop.org is unfortunately infrastructure for a lot more than desktops.
<jrayhawk>
No matter how much it might be in denial about it.
<daniels>
embedded and industrial systems have paid my bills for the last 14 years - I'm not even a bit in denial about it
<emersion>
you… read a FDO wiki… from an indistrial system?
<emersion>
industrial*
<daniels>
I just don't see the same demand you see from users who have such a need need to specifically access the past edit history of wiki pages from text-based web browsers, but aren't invested in it enough to clone the repository
<daniels>
increasing the accessibility of the content and pages themselves would be awesome - as would keeping the content up to date - but this is a solution to a non-existent problem caused by completely invented constraints tbh
<karolherbst>
jrayhawk: well.. there is no cgit if you move to gitlab
<karolherbst>
that's the whole point
<jrayhawk>
So it's not "just about the ikiwiki cgi", then
<karolherbst>
you can maintain and manage a cgit frontend though if you really need that, but that just sounds like a waste of time to me
<karolherbst>
jrayhawk: well.. the main point was to accept merge requests
<jrayhawk>
Which sounds great!
<karolherbst>
yeah, and for that we can just reuse our gitlab infra
<karolherbst>
one account for all the fdo git stuff
<karolherbst>
sounds like a good idea to me
<karolherbst>
soo.. no idea where cgit comes into play here
<karolherbst>
and why it's even needed
<karolherbst>
" Either due to age, security constraints, bandwidth constraints, or being an embedded/industrial system constraints." honestly, I call bs on that
<karolherbst>
if you work for something having these restrictions, I have one advise for you: run away
<karolherbst>
also.. this is for modifiying the wiki
<karolherbst>
not to view it
<karolherbst>
I honestly don't get any of your points
<karolherbst>
and it really looks like just findiing random reasons to block something like that
<jrayhawk>
I'm not talking about blocking it, literally I just want a cgit link.
<karolherbst>
there is no cgit
<karolherbst>
if you want one, you are free to maintain it yourself
<karolherbst>
no idea why we want to have two web git frontends in the first place
<karolherbst>
_why_ in the hell would one want to read the wiki _source_ on such a system
<jrayhawk>
So that people can read the commit history?
<karolherbst>
_why_ on such systems
<karolherbst>
just waint until you get your phone ready or something
<karolherbst>
I hoenstly don't get it
<karolherbst>
we are not living in 1980 where random people only have their text console for accesing random internet stuff
<karolherbst>
it's not even about the wiki
<karolherbst>
you talk about the source of that
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<jrayhawk>
Sometimes phones aren't available; I've had to debug routers in the boonies that are only connected via a point-to-point wireless link.
<karolherbst>
why do you need the wiki _source_ for that?
<jrayhawk>
Low-infrastructure nations have it worse.
<karolherbst>
can just read the wiki
<jrayhawk>
The history would be the more relevant thing, there.
<karolherbst>
how?!?\
<karolherbst>
and why?
<karolherbst>
if there is information in the wiki, we can add it
<karolherbst>
but what does the history have to do with anything here
<jrayhawk>
The other funny one I've worked in is hospital environments that restrict new software and restrict access to everything but software vendors websites for reading documentation.
<karolherbst>
sure, and why is the wiki not enough for that?
<jrayhawk>
What do you mean?
<karolherbst>
you make it sound like that it's a users use case to skim through the wiki history?!?
<karolherbst>
why not just look at the wiki?
<karolherbst>
I mean.. that's what the wiki is for, so you don't have to read the source to it...
<karolherbst>
or do I miss something here?
<daniels>
I've worked on medical systems as well, and those are 100% not debugged via a text-based browser used to access random websites in the field ...
<daniels>
they're debugged on the same systems they're built (i.e. normal laptops), and then fixes are deployed through the usual process, rather than misc on-device monkeying
<jrayhawk>
Well, sometimes those devices are routers.
<karolherbst>
how do you acces the router if that's the only device you got?!?
<jrayhawk>
Such as was the case with the boonies incident.
<jrayhawk>
With a keyboard and monitor?
<karolherbst>
okay fancy enterprise routers tehre
<karolherbst>
I guess there are laptops and other computers in the range :P
<karolherbst>
anyway... I am now tired of bikeshedding, have fun
<jrayhawk>
I'm sorry for sharing my life experiences after being accused of inventing problems (???)
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<jrayhawk>
So, does this mean we're getting rid of cgit, too? Is everything on annarchy and molly disappearing? Is there a plan for redirecting broken links into that system?
<daniels>
there's no planned timeline for EOLing cgit. no data is planned for destruction, as everything up until now has been painstakingly migrated. when we have decommissioned old systems such as Bugzilla, these have always involved redirects or functional archives that keep things working for users.
<emersion>
except phabricator, but no-one is allowed to talk about phabricator :P
<daniels>
yeah, I did try but the MySQL db got corrupted :\
<daniels>
when I tried to load it, mysqld just spat out FAILFAILFAILFAIL… in a loop until you stopped it
<daniels>
there is a copy somewhere, but given that 85% of the useful material in there was in one ticket that pq found a local copy of anyway, for something that was merged about 4 years ago … \_o_/
<daniels>
fully on board for never mentioning that cursed tool again tho