00:00 <kennylevinsen> as wayland does not allow this, you have to compromise: either make up associations and pretend certain things are popups/subsurfaces, or break all association and make stuff toplevels.

00:00 <kennylevinsen> https://gitlab.collabora.com/alf/wine/-/blob/wayland/dlls/winewayland.drv/window.c#L220 <- example of popup guesswork in the wine wayland working branch

00:01 <kennylevinsen> guessing if a window should be made into a popup, followed by guessing which window to associate it with...

00:02 <kennylevinsen> (note: Nothing wrong with this implementation - it's pretty much the only way to map the lax Windows-world into a strict Wayland-world, and it likely works just fine)

00:57 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> Can the same tricks be used to map X11 onto Wayland?

01:22 <fluix> that's what XWayland does I think

01:22 <fluix> although I don't know anything about the tricks involved/if any are used

01:47 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> XWayland uses special compositor support, which won’t be available in my use-case.

02:05 <soreau> if you're supporting x11 protocol clients in a wayland compositor, there must be special support because it's not native wayland protocol

02:05 <soreau> xwayland is the way forward on that front but you are free to reinvent it in a different way if you want

02:11 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> My use-case is supporting X11 protocol clients in a display server that is itself effectively a Wayland client (and has no XWayland access).

04:37 <soreau> in that case, your impl is OT here

08:55 <kennylevinsen> fluix: xwayland has special compositor integration to bypass certain strict behaviors

09:43 <kennylevinsen> DemiMarieObenour[m]: it might be possible and it would be interesting to avoid the need for xwm integration, but it would be a lot of work that I doubt anyone is signing up for, especially considering that it would likely be more fragile than the current, working impl

15:21 <wlb> wayland-protocols/main: Demi Marie Obenour * Use “software” instead of “user space” https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/commit/ce82f1662410 stable/presentation-time/presentation-time.xml

15:21 <wlb> wayland-protocols Merge request !121 merged \o/ (Use “software” instead of “user space” https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/121)

19:31 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> kennylevinsen: indeed it would, but override-redirect windows (the problematic ones) have been the cause of several Qubes Security Bulletins. Furthermore, the GUI daemon in the GUI qube should eventually drop its dependency on X11, while X11 applications outside of the GUI qube must continue to be supported. Given those constraints, I think this approach is the best possible.

19:36 <emersion> the compositor decides its policy for override-redirect windows

19:57 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> My policy will be “choose between `xdg_popup` and `xdg_toplevel` according to some heuristics”

20:01 <emersion> i suppose wl_subsurface too

20:02 <emersion> that's essentially what wine-wayland is doing

20:02 <emersion> it can work in most cases

20:02 <emersion> if you plan to build something which can be used outside of QubeOS, i think many people will be interested

21:15 <kennylevinsen> I certainly would be

21:19 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> Which ones would map to `wl_subsurface`?

21:20 <emersion> stuff you want to put *exactly* at some relative position, without having the compositor potentially re-psotion them

21:21 <kennylevinsen> If you opt out of all popup constraints that should give the same result, no?

21:22 <kennylevinsen> In that case I guess synchronization and/or compositor policy differences would be the main thing

21:22 <emersion> hm, yeah, indeed

21:22 <emersion> grabs too i suppose

21:23 <emersion> but not sure how you'd detect whether or not an X11 client wants to grab or not

21:24 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> Qubes OS at least doesn’t allow qubes to alter the cursor position in any way.

21:24 <emersion> grabs aren't about cursor position

21:24 <emersion> and that's good

21:25 <emersion> popup grabs are mostly about dismissing the popup when clicking outside of it

21:25 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> Can they slow down cursor motion?

21:25 <emersion> no

21:25 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> even the move/resize ones?

21:25 <emersion> move/resize is implemented in the compositor

21:25 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> I thought those could slow down the cursor if the client was slow to commit

21:29 <Levans> It would not slow down the cursor itself, but the window size may lag behind the cursor if the client is too slow to redraw

21:30 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> Nice! That will work fine in Qubes OS.

23:46 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> Does Wayland have a bytes type?

23:51 <DemiMarieObenour[m]> To answer my own question: it has arrays.