ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<kennylevinsen>
any1: not peeping on buffer content, but seeing which buffers exist, their type, their size and what it's being used for
<jadahl>
kennylevinsen: no ascii art representation?
<emersion>
yeah, next step is definitely a libcaca display
<jadahl>
anything less would be dissapointing
<kennylevinsen>
be careful what you wish for :P
<jadahl>
with special unicode magic, it can be just as pixel perfect as fractional scaling
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<zzag>
jadahl: pff, ascii art is so yesterday; today, it's all about blockchains.. we demand blockchain support! don't worry about security, it's all cryptography so it's safe
<jadahl>
wp_bitcoin_wallet_v1?
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<emersion>
wp_nft_buffer_v1
<zzag>
I would argue that it needs to be "xdg" rather than "wp" because no person would be able to live without it
<emersion>
"wp" is stronger than "xdg"
<jadahl>
ext_bitcoin_wallet_v1 and wp_nft_buffer_v1 seems like a plan
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<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
On the topic of silly protocols, there could be wp_network_connect_v1, wp_dbus_v1, and wp_audio_v1
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<dottedmag>
wp_tcp_v1
<dottedmag>
To avoid a crazy maze of specialized protocols
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<vyivel>
wp_x11
<vyivel>
to simplify porting x11 programs to wayland, i suppose
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
I actually did propose tunneling X11 in Wayland at one point. It was to avoid some sort of race condition in XWayland.
<ofourdan>
iirc, it wasn't a race condition, it was about the fact that wayland compositors with Xwayland support are Xwayland clients, which itself is a Wayland client, so more about potential deadlocks
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
Sorry about that, my mistake
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
Sorry for wasting your time pq
<emersion>
it's possible to a degree
<emersion>
kind of a shame this is written in ML tbh
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
Why is it a shame?
<emersion>
i like boring stuff
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
OCaml isn’t exactly a new language; it’s been around since 1996.
<emersion>
OCaml screams "oh look at this fancy code construct"
<emersion>
but my bad, this is off-topic for this channel
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<pq>
It is an impressive body of work.
<pq>
It's based on guessing the X11 window types and states and mirroring those via xdg-shell, with quirks here and there to make the Wayland interchange legal.
<ofourdan>
thomas leonard of Rox fame?
<pq>
The post didn't really go into the details of window positioning, especially O-R positioning, which I would have assumed to be a pretty big problem.
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
pq: That would be my assumption too. I suspect it gets translated to a popup, but I am not certain.
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
ofourdan: I am not sure what Rox is, but I do know he is the creator of 0install, a contributor to MirageOS, and the discoverer of at least one vulnerability in Xen’s ARM port.
<ofourdan>
yeah, same person
<pq>
DemiMarieObenour[m], he mentioned using various heuristics in trying to detect what to do with each O-R window. I suppose it works surprisingly well for the apps he uses.
<kennylevinsen>
I imagine it is not dissimilar to what wine needs to do
<pq>
yup
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
kennylevinsen: Probably almost the same, except somewhat easier because most X11 applications use a toolkit.
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
Some of it probably turns into per-application hacks, but that is probably a minority.
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
And the payoff is worthwhile
<vyivel>
heh, had the same "rootlees x11 wm" idea a while ago, although x11->wayland DnD would still require compositor to play along
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
<pq> "the post mentions the same..." <- In Qubes OS, the current plan for DnD is to not support it at all.
<kennylevinsen>
Yeah that won't work for general compositors
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
It’s not that I don’t want to support it, but rather that I am not aware of a good way to support it properly, and only supporting it within a single VM just leads to confusion.
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<qyliss>
when I used Qubes OS for the first time, being able to drag and drop only within a single VM was actually the thing that made me understand the concept of Qubes OS, and the separation of VMs
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
That is interesting qyliss!
<qyliss>
(I understand why it would be confusing for other people though)
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
The problem with the current situation isn’t just that one can’t drag and drop between qubes, but that it is very easy to drop onto the wrong window. If dropping onto a window owned by a different VM gave a useful error, that would be okay. Right now, however, it will either do nothing or (worse) drop onto whatever window in the same VM happened to be there at the time, even if that window was hidden by a window from a
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
different VM! This is not only surprising, but also a legitimate security problem. I have dropped text from a chat window into a terminal more than once.
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
I actually reported that as a security vulnerability in gnome-terminal before I understood what was going on.
<qyliss>
oh wow, yes, that is surprising
<DemiMarieObenour[m]>
Basically, DnD only works if everyone agrees on what the topmost window at a given position is, and that is not the case in Qubes OS.
<qyliss>
in Wayland, only the compositor needs to know, right?
<qyliss>
(I'm coming at this from the virtio-wl/virtio-gpu perspective, like Thomas)
<swick>
do we know who wrote that part of the vulkan spec?
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<swick>
> If the swapchain is created with a present mode of VK_PRESENT_MODE_MAILBOX_KHR or VK_PRESENT_MODE_IMMEDIATE_KHR, then the corresponding wl_surface.attach, wl_surface.damage, and wl_surface.commit request must be issued by the implementation during the call to vkQueuePresentKHR and must not be issued by the implementation outside of vkQueuePresentKHR
<daniels>
swick: o/
<swick>
perfect :)
<swick>
why is this restricted to mailbox and immediate?
<daniels>
I'd have to ping the 2015 edition of daniels and ask him
<daniels>
it does certainly make no sense for that to be cut out from FIFO, because you're just handing yourself an absolute footgun
<daniels>
we were definitely hoping at the time that presentation-time would take off, but ... lul
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<swick>
in practice the WSI gives the same guarantee for FIFO and apps rely on it
<daniels>
IIRC the requirement was originally unqualified (i.e. for all present modes), but then later on there was a longer discussion about how FIFO was mandatory and not blocking was mandatory, so that was kind of cut out whilst we waited for the ecosystem to be fixed
<daniels>
(it was mostly jajones pushing for the FIFO usecases)
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<swick>
daniels: so, changing the spec to reflect reality would probably a good idea?
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<daniels>
yeah, I would suggest so, and then apps who don't want to block on FIFO can be a usecase for present timing
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<MrCooper>
FWIW, this means the WSI can't work around Wayland compositors missing display refresh cycles due to busy buffers
<MrCooper>
(at least not without vkQueuePresentKHR doing the moral equivalent of glFinish)
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<daniels>
yep
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<MrCooper>
kind of sad that after a couple of years of beating drums about this issue, I only know of gamescope having addressed it
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<emersion>
well, we really miss a mechanism to integrate "wait for fence" into poll
<emersion>
firing up a thread just for this is really not great
<MrCooper>
a dma-buf fd works fine
<MrCooper>
the real challenge is the implications for tracking output state vs Wayland protocol state
<emersion>
hm right poll works on dma-bufs but not fences
<emersion>
wasn't mutter doing some work for this?
<emersion>
we have wlroots patches for this as well
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<MrCooper>
emersion: I started working on it for mutter, but I haven't fully solved the challenge yet, and I won't get a chance to pick it up again for another six months at least
<emersion>
that's some long-term planning :P
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<MrCooper>
I need to focus on something else until the RHEL 8.7 release is done
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<MrCooper>
(others are free to pick this up in the meantime, of course)
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<MrCooper>
meanwhile, users just notice that games look less smooth with Wayland than Xorg :(
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