ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<i509vcb>
Clarify what you mean by protocol fragmentation?
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<i509vcb>
It's one of the two:
<i509vcb>
1. Compositor specific protocols/many protocols having varying levels of support
<i509vcb>
2. the protocols have features thrown across many protocol definitions
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<ifreund>
hmm, it looks like creating multiple xdg-decoration objects for a single xdg-toplevel isn't forbidden
<ifreund>
is that correct?
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<davidre>
No
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<davidre>
see already_constructed error
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<ifreund>
ah, it's hidden
<ifreund>
thanks
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<pq>
argh
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<pq>
astlep4 doing join/quit flooding
<ifreund>
I didn't even realize due to weechat's filter
<ifreund>
I can imagine that's super annoying in some clients though
<pq>
I think stale color-management protocol !14 threads have been cleaned up now. :-)
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<pq>
swick[m], I'm happy we chose to use CICP, it seems to save a lot of work and offers vocabulary.
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<pq>
and dropping EDR dropped a lot of open questions from protocol, but those still need to be solved in compositor implementations anyway, which probably gives us a good idea of how to interface with EDR.
<JEEB>
yea these wordings were for ~20 years in the video specs
<JEEB>
but now they're in a separate common coding points thing
<JEEB>
also what in this context is EDR?
<JEEB>
IIRC what Apple called EDR is just floaty linear scRGB
<pq>
the Apple invention of Extended Dynamic Range
<JEEB>
yeh, MS also lets you set that, tested it with mpv back when, and I used that with non-HDR wide gamut stuff in libplacebo
<pq>
and specifically use "EDR value" as a luminance factor relative to SDR peak white luminance
<JEEB>
yea that is just a hint for you regarding how far you can go I think. SDR graphics white being 1.0
<JEEB>
basically apple then encoding that to whatever then gets passed over the wire
<pq>
well, it's the equivalent to HDR static metadata max luminance
<pq>
just with a different reference point
<JEEB>
yes, just given to the application
<pq>
and from app to the display system
<JEEB>
that you can go this high
<pq>
the concept is not difficult, but getting all the reference points right is confusing
<JEEB>
didn't notice that that bit, but makes sense. it keeps it simple for people used to SDR, and as such it can be handled in CICP
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<JEEB>
since you just set primaries to BT.709, linear transfer, your sample format is float16
<pq>
EDR has nothing to do with CICP
<JEEB>
I mean, the thing that goes over the compositor thing can be advertised by means of CICP :P
<JEEB>
the specific 1.0-based metadata does not of course
<JEEB>
but as such, scRGB can be handled just fine
<pq>
sure
<pq>
EDR also does not seem to consider the black point at all
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<pq>
scRGB can be implied thrugh CICP and a floating-point pixel format, but that's also useless without context of gamut and dynamic range. SDR range can be the unit range, but you also need to know the actual bounds for gamut and tone mapping.
<JEEB>
that I do agree with :)
<pq>
or, you need the assumption that the app already did the gamut and tone mapping into the monitor capabilities, so the compositor does not need to.
<JEEB>
yup
<pq>
that's what we are having a wee bit of problems still
<JEEB>
the idea just being that it seems to have been defined as a simple way to bolt HDR for projects already doing SDR graphics. since if you keep within the 0-1 range
<JEEB>
and then if you go over, that's then wider gamut/range
<pq>
right
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<pq>
HDR static metadata uses nits for the luminance values, but we also need to define what they are relative to, since you practically never display nit-for-nit.
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<JEEB>
they're relative to the reference mastering environment as far as I can tell. so if you are in a brighter state than that, it's OK to raise brightness
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<JEEB>
meanwhile apple went the other way
<JEEB>
they define "ambient environment brightness" metadata
<JEEB>
and then you look at your ambient environment and adjust either way
<JEEB>
iphone videos have this at 500 nits or so :D
<pq>
exactly, so how do we encode a reference mastering environment in the protocol? :-)
<JEEB>
*ambient viewing environment
<pq>
HLG also went the other way. Or should we way sideways?
<pq>
*say
<JEEB>
and now the static image people are defining their own way of presenting HLG ;)
<JEEB>
but yea, it seems like people except for apple (or maybe even apple for non-metadata'd content) just expect things to be according to the reference mastering environment. and then if that ambient viewing environment metadata is available, they utilize that as the content base
<JEEB>
the ambient viewing environment metadata block comes straight out of H.274, which yes is one-off from H.273 xD
<JEEB>
pq: I think you have noticed by now that due to various headroom reasons I'm quite lazy to actually register to various places :)
<JEEB>
while I'm quite available @ IRC which is low-effort
<pq>
it's not low-effort for me :-p
<JEEB>
:)
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<pq>
gosh, the title of H.274 is so... descriptive
<pq>
and only 110 pages, but I guess it's more than just viewing environment
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<JEEB>
yea
<JEEB>
it contains all of the metadata blocks that have been found useful in H.264+
<JEEB>
and for whatever reason it also then contains
<JEEB>
> Parsing process for k-th order Exp-Golomb codes
<pq>
I was just thinking "all the parameters we could ever think of"
<JEEB>
and yea, if you have a seat at JVET/ISO/etc then as long as your proposal is not too insane it will probably get included
<JEEB>
I saw them adding stuff like neural network post-processing
<pq>
oh poor video codec devs
<JEEB>
yes, and esp. open source ones like me. who need to hyena draft document archives to figure out things
<JEEB>
or gop-stop students who might have PDFs
<pq>
The decision to have compositors advertise the CICP they accept was blatantly correct.
<JEEB>
yea
<pq>
swick[m], scene-referred HLG and PQ are coming. No, we should not support them. :-P
<JEEB>
:DD
<swick[m]>
uhm...
<swick[m]>
HLG is scene-referred already?
<JEEB>
yea
<JEEB>
which is why you utilize the BT.2100 currently with it
<JEEB>
*BT.2100 OOTF
<JEEB>
swick[m]: he is referring to the zip I linked which contains a doc which raises a question whether the static image folks' new way of presenting it on screen will affect CICP
<JEEB>
since they are defining it as part of a new spec
<swick[m]>
oh boy
<pq>
a different kind of scene-referred, one without the display OOTF or the reference OOTF.
<pq>
a.k.a scene-referred harder HLG
<pq>
a.k.a useless to us since not made for display
<pq>
oh, also the provision to use reference display metadata with the "regular" HLG
<pq>
I *knew* it! HLG did seem to be missing pieces related to color gamut mapping.
<pq>
so two new HLG variants and one new PQ variant, whee
<JEEB>
yea, will see if it ends up as new CICP values or the same
<JEEB>
kinda like the two new YCgCo reversible things
<pq>
I think the weekend is looking pretty attractive.
<JEEB>
indeed :)
<JEEB>
too bad I do multimedia as a hobby so for me the less boring stuff starts now (I need to get HDR/ICC profile stuff etc passed into FFmpeg encoders)
<pq>
If I ever end up with the original HLG guys in the same conference call again, I should ask what they thing of these new things.
<JEEB>
:)
<swick[m]>
we learned a lot since then
<swick[m]>
still think that someone should add CICPs for reference viewing environment and reference display characteristics
<JEEB>
that's in the H.273+1 spec :)
<JEEB>
ahh, right. enums for teh standard values. gotcha
<swick[m]>
jup
<JEEB>
for the record I don't even recall where the definition even is
<JEEB>
ITU 2408, maybe?
<swick[m]>
for what exactly?
<JEEB>
reference viewing environment
<JEEB>
I just know it's probably something very dark
<JEEB>
thus in general you only have to adjust upwards if you know that your viewing environment is bright
<swick[m]>
well, the point here is that there are different recommendations for the reference viewing environment
<swick[m]>
if there was a single definition that all content uses we wouldn't have a problem
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<swick[m]>
reading ITU-T H.274 is exactly what I wanted to do today :(
<pq>
still beats rpm packaging? :-)
<swick[m]>
SMPTE ST 2084 for example just specifies everything iirc
<swick[m]>
heh, maybe, not sure yet
<swick[m]>
mh, SMPTE ST 2084 lists 3 common reference viewing environments
<swick[m]>
this is going to be fun
<JEEB>
and I think that is partially why Apple (?) came up with the h.274 ambient viewing environment metadata that I implemented in FFmpeg. because iphone videos are generally captured in a manner to also be viewed in such an environment. (so instead of making them less bright and then just boosting, they instead save that it is meant to be viewed at 500+ nits)
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<useless>
hi all. i'm fighting with the infmous disappearing mouse pointer trick. i'm out of ideas. it vanishes if i cross a window that would alter the pointer and it never comes back. seems limited to wlroots as weston does not have the bug
<ifreund>
useless: it's more likely an issue with your wlroots-based compositor than wlroots itself
<ifreund>
perhaps you should ask them for support?
<useless>
ok, but i've tried several with the same results
<useless>
wlroots seems to be the common thread
<ifreund>
do you have some xcursor theme installed?
<useless>
i do now, it was part of my troubleshooting
<ifreund>
and have you somehow told your compositor to use it?
<useless>
i've told everything (i think) to use Adwaita
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<kennylevinsen>
Is it a specific window? So you use scaling?
<kennylevinsen>
*do
<useless>
no, its all windows with all toolkits...except alacritty
<useless>
also, i'm using nvidia-drivers
<useless>
alacritty shows no issues but dmesg shows that it is segfaulting...a lot.
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<useless>
i was able to capture this as the cursor vanished: