marcan changed the topic of #asahi-dev to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | Non-development talk: #asahi | General development | GitHub: | Wiki: | Logs:
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<sven> jannau: alright, will send out the fix later today then
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<sven> looks like it also works with my altmode code which is probably the worst possible situation since you get a few successive role switches without any i2c traffic inbetween
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<kettenis> marcan: time for another update to the cpufreq patch series?
<marcan> kettenis: Already on it
<marcan> doing a test build now :)
<marcan> jannau: do you have M2/misc DCP updates? I should probably spin some new kernels
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<_jannau_> marcan: includes fixes by lina for x11 vsync and m1/m2 brightness after dpms. on the m1 imac the fix is not complete. it restores the brightness ~3 minutes after poweroff
<_jannau_> i.e. it works if the screen is off for at least 3 minutes
<sven> that sounds like a fun bug
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<_jannau_> macos powers dcp off completely on the imac. I don't remember seeing that on mac mini or mbp 14"
<sven> doesn‘t it even keep dcpext alive when nothing’s connected?
<_jannau_> I haven't traced dcpext. this is just dcp with turn the display off after 1 minute but don't sleep
<marcan> _jannau_: fun. thanks!
<marcan> cpufreq v4 sent, wonder if it'll make it this week
<marcan> should be pretty much ready, if I get the acks and Vishar merges the driver per se I can push the DT stuff and send arnd one last pull for it
<marcan> I really should start putting stuff in a TODO list, I probably should've sent this last week
<marcan> _jannau_: do I need to merge both for m2?
<marcan> I mean are the independent branches?
<marcan> *they
<_jannau_> they are independent, the m2 branch has the panel dimensions in the dt which are only used by a commit in the fixes branch but they shouldn't cause problems
<marcan> cool, I'll merge them both. thanks!
<_jannau_> thanks
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<ChaosPrincess> marcan: if you are merging stuff, can you also cherry-pick this one?
<marcan> ChaosPrincess: oof, nice catch
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<eiln> hey yall
<eiln> feel pretty lost on what direction to head with the ane
<eiln> its neither a necessary component nor a standard one so i dont know what a final product would even look like
<eiln> i would like advice / guidance on development
<ChaosPrincess> isnt ane mostly for inference, not training?
<sven> might make sense to talk to alyssa or the drm people since it's possibly similar to gpu compute
<ChaosPrincess> maybe look at how the google tpus are hooked up on linux
<eiln> it's really just MAC hardware, so whatever it can be hooked to
<eiln> also some exynos stuff
<ChaosPrincess> i thought until somewhat recently, the approach for this kind of stuff was to just dump it in char/misc, an do all the fancy stuff in userspace.
<ChaosPrincess> but that made kernel folks unhappy
<sven> as i said, i'd talk to the drm folks and/or alyssa
<eiln> alright ty!
<sven> alyssa should be here or in #asahi-gpu sometimes
<povik> running opencl on ane when
<sven> I wonder if it's versatile enough for that :D
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<povik> jannau: alyssa: i wrote up what is per my understanding the boilerplate to add audio to DCP. take a look if curious
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<kettenis> marcan: thanks; hopefully v5 will stick
<marcan> I don't think alyssa is the right person for this; some other drm folks might have an opinion though
<marcan> eiln ^
<marcan> wasn't there a new subsystem in linux for ane type stuff?
<j`ey> a new 'accel' subsytem
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<sven> povik: I think the proper solution to that drvdata thing is to just create a new device from code. nvme does that as well for its nvme_crrl
<sven> *nvme_ctrl
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<povik> yeah, makes sense
<sven> in other thunderbolt and „sven is dumb“ news: part of the acio MMIO wasn’t „enabled“ because I literally got the address wrong in the device tree *sigh*
<sven> pciec still SErrors though, but maybe I need something connected before that comes up
<povik> i guess you double-checked the address there? :D
<sven> yup :D
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<ChaosPrincess> Wasnt there some people who tried to put asahi on checkrainable ipads?
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<alyssa> eiln (for when they're back)--
<alyssa> NPUs in mainline are in a bit of a weird spot right now
<alyssa> Stuff isn't too standardized yet, as you're seeing
<alyssa> I think I'd like to understand the capabilities of the ANE more before I could give any advice
<alyssa> Some NPUs (e.g. Vivante) are general purpose compute accelerators
<alyssa> the Vivante NPU is literally just a Vivante GPU with all the graphics support stripped out
<alyssa> hence is supported by the existing etnaviv GPU stack, supporting (only) OpenCL in userspace via mesa
<alyssa> IMHO that design doesn't make a lot of sense on SoCs that have competent CPUs and GPUs, either of which can run OpenCL excellently, why add NPU into the mix?
<alyssa> On the other extreme you have NPUs that are fixed function neural network hardware
<alyssa> which is more sensible if you're going to have an ANE at all
<alyssa> It does not make sense to support that in Mesa
<alyssa> but we don't currently have a home for userspace drivers for hardware of that class (Mesa for GPUs, libcamera for camera processing, what for NPUs?)
<alyssa> I think the current state-of-the-art is adding a tensorflow backend for your hardware and yeeting
<alyssa> (Because there's not a standard API, ie a hypothetical Khronos OpenML, that this hardware would implement... In effect the tensorflow API would be that API in this case...)
<alyssa> Usually that's downstream char/misc devices in the kernel with custom vendor ioctls and a downstream fork of tflite or whatever ...
<alyssa> I think Habana Labs (only) are doing things "properly" with upstream/mainline approach now
<alyssa> and ruminations of an accel subsystem as mentioned above
<alyssa> so it's worth looking at what they're doing
<alyssa> as the closest prior art for "ANE done right"
<alyssa> ("ANE done wrong" would be the downstream vendor approach to get some cool pics for Twitter/Mastodon and never end up getting shipped...)
<alyssa> this isn't my 'area', I'm not the expert here
<alyssa> but every so often the ML folk pass by my virtual cubicle at work :-p
<sven> she said after giving amazing advise on what to do :D
<sven> *advice
<alyssa> sven: NPUs are just GPUs that suck at rasterization....
<sven> huh, i guess
<alyssa> I do want to understand the complexity of the ANE instruction set
<alyssa> Is this "we have a couple of registers for network weights and the rest is fixed"?
<alyssa> Is this "it can run C code"?
<alyssa> Something in the middle?
<sven> eiln wrote a bit in -gpu and -re
<alyssa> Habanalabs is using LLVM for their commpiler ... while I won't stop you from doing so, as a maintainer of a competing project I won't be able to help if you go that route ;-)
<sven> it sounded like a linear algebra accelerator for float16
<sven> so a bunch of simple math operations that you can chain together
<marcan> alyssa: eiln said it's basically a big MAC unit
<marcan> it doesn't have load/store
<kettenis> that's what most "machine learning" oriented instruction set extension seem to be
<marcan> just a giant pile of registers or something
<alyssa> right... so quite a bit simpler than Habana I suspect
<alyssa> not sure there'd be any value in using LLVM or NIR, they may just get in the way..
<alyssa> so yeah... nothing standardized at that point... do what's best in the kernel side (probably DRM driver), do your own thing in userspace (libane with your own cute little compiler?), plumb libane into tensorflow and pytorch or whatever? IDK
<alyssa> you're not the only one having these problems
<alyssa> lots of people are being paid big bucks to not solve these (-:
<marcan> alyssa: also I didn't know you had random ML knowledge to drop :p
<alyssa> marcan: go to sleep
<sven> :D
<alyssa> marcan: and I'm a GPU developer with a minor in math, of couse I have random ML knowledge to drop :p
<alyssa> (...strictly i need to graduate first, but I have enough credits for a minor...)
<marcan> lol
<marcan> fine, fine
<sven> all you need for ML is linear algebra 101 anyway :P
<sven> and maybe some high school calculus
<alyssa> thank you Dr. Peter
<marcan> it's not hard like CRCs!
<sven> lol
<marcan> also I implemented waifu2x in opencl at some point so I'm supposed to know about this?
<marcan> (not very well mind you)
<kettenis> I did a course on NN 30 years ago, does that count?
<povik> pfff, everybody knows ML was invited just a couple of years ago
<alyssa> povik: i see your attempt at nerdsniping dcp audio
<marcan> sven: dunno if I ever told you about that one? waifu2x was some mess based on one of those giant ML frameworks in lua or something
<marcan> "so how does this actually work?"
<sven> we talked about that one :D
<marcan> answer: 35 lines of numpy:
<alyssa> you've hair soft as feathery down
<marcan> (then the opencl version was my attempt at making it not suck)
<alyssa> soft eyes to look into
<alyssa> such trust and vigour for life
<alyssa> i am your pony waifu2x
<povik> alyssa: not yet! when the SIO part is ready will the temptation be at its peak
<alyssa> ("Dash, I want you to know even though you're a horse, I still love you.")
<marcan> povik: reminder that everyone's clamoring for speakers before dcp audio and I need visense for that :p
<marcan> (pretty please :> )
<povik> yes, that's a reminder in place
<alyssa> povik: you should get a minion
<alyssa> hell, i should get a minion
* marcan is happy shaving the userspace speakersafetyd yak and whatever it involves with alsa-ctl
<marcan> but I think you're in a better spot to get the visense streams up ;)
<marcan> I should get a minion... wait, are you all my minions?!
<povik> uh oh
<marcan> I hope not, that sounds scary
<marcan> too much responsibility
<alyssa> marcan: i don't think we're minions no
<alyssa> you should get a minion though
<alyssa> sven: and i complain way too much to be good minions >:)
<sven> true
<marcan> alyssa: also I hear lina is fixing mesa code now, are you sure you don't already have a minion?
<sven> we also don’t get paid enough to be good minions!
<alyssa> marcan: lina's a protegee
<alyssa> not a minion
<marcan> fair enough
<alyssa> povik: you should also consider getting a protegee
<povik> i will get one once VISENSE's ready
<marcan> :D
<povik> that leaves sven without one
<sven> :<
<alyssa> povik: can't you minion do visense
<povik> they're busy nerdsniping you... err, they're busy
<marcan> so here's an idea: sven can be povik's minion, povik can be alyssa's minion, and alyssa can be sven's minion!
<povik> (or jannau of course, that's a viable target too)
<alyssa> minions are great for doing the stuff you were supposed to do yourself months ago
<alyssa> povik: pretty sure sven is already jannau's minion
<marcan> alyssa: wait come to think of it isn't jannau your minion?
<sven> lol
<alyssa> 19:22 <@alyssa> minions are great for doing the stuff you were supposed to do yourself months ago
<povik> at this point i'm confused and need a graph before we start discussing minions further
<alyssa> marcan: hmm by that defintiion yes
<alyssa> fun fact: all the RK3399 chromebooks are named after Despicable Me characters
<marcan> we're already in non-DAG territory, this isn't going to end well
<alyssa> this laptop is "Kevin", the baseboard is "Gru"
<marcan> ha
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<jn> chromebook codenames are fun
<alyssa> truly
<alyssa> idk what "asurada" references
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* mps owns Kevin-Gru :)
<alyssa> mps: still my favourite laptop
<mps> alyssa: yes, easy to carry around
<mps> less than 1Kg and small dimensions
<alyssa> so good
<alyssa> and it runs one of my graphicsdrivers! ;-p
<alyssa> yknow before you could just get a macbook for that :-p
<mps> alyssa: yes, I use your GPU driver on it. never told thank you and now I have chance: thank you for good work
<alyssa> aww
<alyssa> you're very welcome :-)
<mps> (though we argued one on #panfrost but I hope this is forgotten ;) )
<mps> s/one/once/
<alyssa> if it didn't result in a ban, we good :-p
<mps> ah, so no ban is good. there were no ban
<alyssa> :-D
<alyssa> I was talking to dougall about ^ yesterday, how in some ways panfrost has been wildly successful, and as a result is wildly 'boring'
<alyssa> Its success means that it's become infrastructure, you know, how often do you think about the people maintaining your USB drivers? or NVMe?
<alyssa> when they break and you go to the bug tracker/mailing list/yell into the twitter void, sure
<alyssa> other than that? \shrug/
<mps> I was early user when it had bugs so it was not borring :)
<alyssa> ahahaha yes well :)
<alyssa> dougall: observed that success for Asahi means becoming boring in precisely the same way
<mps> well, asahi becoming somewhat boring for me now
<alyssa> in 5 years or so, some 13yo kid is going to install Fedora on his hand-me-down M1 MacBook Air and everything will just work and she'll never know we existed :-)
<mps> now is full year I'm using m1 as daily driver, started with usb wifi and usb sound
<alyssa> :-D
<alyssa> 1yr + 3 months for me
<alyssa> lol, I started using M1 at work before any graphics were alive, just using a TTY to compile stuff and run vim
<mps> if I don't need firefox I could still be on tty
<mps> oh, btw, gpu driver on m1pro works very good with wayland/sway
<alyssa> Excellent ^^
<Tramtrist> good news mps
<mps> Tramtrist: xorg works also but not so fine as wayland
<Tramtrist> i onlky use swaywm now ;)
<alyssa> i like gnome
<alyssa> on the mac anyway
<alyssa> sway on the chromebooks
<Tramtrist> im holding out on getting the gpu enhancement running until its in edge at the earliest
<alyssa> Tramtrist: thank you
<Tramtrist> Im assuming youll let folks know when we can help in testing
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<alyssa> Yep!
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<alyssa> lina and I have a mostly-unwritten todo list of release blockers
<kettenis> alyssa: are the UAPI ioctls taking shape?
<kettenis> there are a few subtle differences between Linux and *BSD in ioctl handling and it would be good if we can avoid those
<kettenis> the most important one is that an ioctl that fails (returns an error) can not copy out its argument struct to userland
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<alyssa> lina: ^^
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