marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<timetheory[m]>
What’s the current usability status of Asahi Linux?
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<marcan>
sven: OTOH it's rather unlikely that xarts will break with linux-apfs
<marcan>
it's a single purpose volume with like one file
<marcan>
doesn't get any simpler than that
<marcan>
so we can probably just ship it
<marcan>
I wouldn't tell people to run apfs as their rootfs, but we can probably do that much
<timetheory[m]>
Am I being ignored or is the matrix bridge broken?
<marcan>
timetheory[m]: I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for :)
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: I'll take that as being ignored ;)
<marcan>
I just released a detailed progress report mentioning what works and what doesn't the other day, does that help?
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: Hmm, I can't find it on the homepage or with a quick search, do you have a link handy by any chance?
<timetheory[m]>
When you state that "M1 Macs are actually usable as desktop Linux machines", does that mean that you'd actually recommend using Asahi as a daily driver or is it not stable enough yet?
<marcan>
it's not about stability, it's about features
<marcan>
I imagine most users would want e.g. audio to work
<timetheory[m]>
Whoops I missed that part
<timetheory[m]>
Though yeah the project has been coming along really quickly so I wish you guys best of luck
<timetheory[m]>
s/really/surprisingly/
<marcan>
I think we're doing a pretty good job at keeping things stable; I expect a bit of a longer tail there in graphics since that has a much larger bug surface, but otherwise things basically just work once they're implemented
<marcan>
more likely is that people will run into corner cases that aren't properly supported
<marcan>
so all that will take some time to sort out :)
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: Honestly that's kinda the reason I want to use Linux instead of macOS; macOS seems to break when you do weird stuff but Linux seems pretty stable even when you break it
<timetheory[m]>
What are your thoughts about this continuing to work on next-gen macs? I saw some thoughts on reddit the other day that Apple may change courses and not allow custom OSs on their second generation like Sony
<marcan>
highly unlikely to happen
<marcan>
reddit/HN/phoronix/etc are full of FUD
<marcan>
apple put together like a whole team of people to develop the boot policy system to make this happen
<marcan>
they aren't just going to throw it all away
<timetheory[m]>
Wonder why they didn't release any docs at all :|
<marcan>
because the "official" use case is running custom XNU buids
<marcan>
*builds
<marcan>
which the XNU lead manager at Apple did blog about ;)
<chadmed>
i would also think that apple trying to lock down the bootloader of ostensibly desktop-class devices would open up a regulatory can of worms for them. it would be an incredibly significant break from the last 30-odd years of computer tradition and i cant see regulatory bodies like the EU taking too kindly to such locking down
<chadmed>
especially considering the accelerating support for right to repair and device ownership among legislators and the like. maybe RMS will get his wish and tivoisation will eventually be outlawed
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<marcan>
FWIW, it's pretty clear that a lot of folks inside Apple are cheering for us
<marcan>
corporate is unlikely to make any official statements or guarantees, but they also have no reason to make things harder for us
<arahael1>
That's curious, and imho flies against the trends in Apple. However, that means it's very hopeful and promising that we might have a *fantastic* ARM-based laptop for us to use for linux. :)
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: I mean if they want to make Mac a closed system (like iOS, App Store revenues are huge) they absolutely would have a reason to make things harder
<marcan>
arahael1: it doesn't
<marcan>
people have a very twisted idea of large companies
<marcan>
I know that; I worked at Google for almost 3 years
<arahael1>
marcan: To be fair, my perspective is that as an iOS developer.
arahael1 is now known as Arahael
<marcan>
big companies aren't a homogeneous revenue-maximizing behemoth
<marcan>
they are made of people, and people have their own opinions and ideas
<Arahael>
I'm not disputing that. :)
<marcan>
you can have bad stuff come from the top, but there's only so many things management can concern themselves with, if nothing else
<chadmed>
feudal capitalism like people think exists in big tech isnt really a thing outside of east asia. sure, large corporations can be shitty and evil but most of this is enabled and even somewhat created by people _outside_ the company manifesting it. think of reddit's opinions on apple as nothing but a marketing factory. patently false as anyone who has spent any time with their more recent devices can tell you.
<i509vcb[m]>
marcan: It is definitely easy to assign some label of the fat cat but really all companies are made up of people who do have things they need to achieve in order to sustain themselves and their livelihoods
<i509vcb[m]>
This however does not justify bad decisions execs make to be fair.
<Arahael>
It's quite probable that the perspective you have from well, being part of this project, and being more involved with the _desktop_ OS is quite different to what I've seen as an iOS dev and dealing with the App Store.
<marcan>
i509vcb[m]: it does not, but what I'm saying is that you can't assume the company is one homogeneous mechanism and you can extrapolate its behavior from highly visible decisions
<marcan>
Arahael: I think they have a pretty strong line with the desktop OS
<chadmed>
i doubt tim cook is personally edge-case testing kmutil and going "hang on couldnt they use this to boot linux? stop this immediately!"
<marcan>
they want people to be safe so they are making it *annoying* to bypass things (e.g. unsigned code)
<Arahael>
marcan: That's good to hear. :)
<marcan>
but they aren't going to *lock it down* like iOS
<marcan>
that's why our installer will never quite be as friction-free as I'd like it to, but I understand the reasons why
<marcan>
and I'm okay with that
<Arahael>
That's interesting. Honestly, sometimes I wish they did, would make IT teams in corporate less likely to install antivirus cruft.
<timetheory[m]>
I’m primarily worried that they’re looking to make an App Store for macOS though
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: They already do.
<i509vcb[m]>
chadmed: to be fair there are people who have gotten linux to run on some very bizzare hardware
<marcan>
they have
<marcan>
also, consider the whole per-OS security state model of these machines
<timetheory[m]>
Sorry I meant App Store only
<marcan>
that is *amazing*; I doubt corporate came up with that, it was probably driven from engineering, but I have no idea
<marcan>
but it is a huge boon for users
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: Strictly speaking, iOS isn't app-store-only. You can distribute and deploy your iOS apps on a website and have people install them that way. (It just costs more)
<Arahael>
marcan: What do you mean by that, there? "the whole per-OS security state model".
<marcan>
macs are the only platform where you can have full freedom to run your own OS *and* the ability to run a locked down DRM system, with a simple reboot
<marcan>
the security state is per-OS
<timetheory[m]>
Arahael: How? PWAs on iOS are not exactly implemented in a good way
<marcan>
so you can have a full secure macOS install, capable of running iOS apps and watching Netflix in 4K
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: I'm not talking about PWA's.
<marcan>
and fully open Linux
<marcan>
and dual boot them
<marcan>
that doesn't exist anywhere else
<Arahael>
marcan: That's very cool!
<marcan>
all other platforms use some sort of global switch, e.g. Android with the OEM unlock
<chadmed>
i509vcb[m]: true but my point is more that i doubt corporate gives a damn about the technical minutiae of the device, especially if its stuff like this that engineering can sneak through as necessary for development. as marcan has said in the past, its not an accident that the macs behave the way they do.
<timetheory[m]>
Arahael: What are you talking about then?
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: Your regular boring old IPA's.
<chadmed>
its as if theres a trail of breadcrumbs left by the engineers for us to follow. im sure they themselves would love to have linux on these devices too
<timetheory[m]>
Arahael: You can’t run those though without hacks
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: Yes, you can. I do.
<timetheory[m]>
How? You either need to sign them via AltStore (which is kind of a hack) or have a jailbroken phone, right?
<marcan>
chadmed: they technically kind of do; Apple uses Linux for silicon validation
<timetheory[m]>
timetheory[m]: W/o a paid account you can only install 3 AltStore apps anyways
<marcan>
probably ugly corellium-style ports though, not upstreamable
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: Nope. You can also get an Enterprise developer account, with an Enterprise certificate and use enterprise distribution methods. It's generally intended for internal apps for the enterprise.
<Namidairo>
quite a few manufacturers are jerks about android oem unlock, even if it is provided
<brentr123[m]>
Gotta love fastboot oem unlock
<chadmed>
yeah you absolutely can sideload apps on ios as long as you have the certificate for it. company i used to work for used some ghoulish bespoke job ticket app that i had to install and maintain on my own device. awful stuff.
<brentr123[m]>
What a wonderful command that is
<timetheory[m]>
Arahael: Having to pay $300 a year extra on top of the phone doesn’t exactly count as open
<Arahael>
timetheory[m]: I don't think we were ever discussing being able to do so for free.
<marcan>
brentr123[m]: if only it didn't break SafetyNet :p
<Namidairo>
ranging from not having it at all, making you sign requests on a web page, imposing 2 week delays, degrading devices by wiping out calibration partitions (bye bye camera), etc.
<timetheory[m]>
That’s often an entire half of the phone’s price and it’s also not possible to distribute to end users
<chadmed>
i had an HTC 10. shame that HTC were such arseholes about unlocking it because it was truly a fantastic phone, best integrated DAC in a smartphone at that time. but even after unlocking it there were sections of the bootloader that were totally locked down. im guessing this was to protect some rootkit/firmware killswitch they had
<marcan>
Namidairo: that's another thing about the macs, they're unbrickable
<brentr123[m]>
marcan: Ever heard of magiskhide?
<brentr123[m]>
It bypasses safetynet
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: Why though?
<marcan>
brentr123[m]: there is no way to bypass safetynet on modern devices with TZ-tied signing that knows about unlock state
<brentr123[m]>
Also isn’t safetynet only flagged with root? Not with boot loader unlock
<marcan>
timetheory[m]: why what?
<marcan>
brentr123[m]: there are two levels
<Namidairo>
they flag certain ro. variables such as bootloader unlock now
<marcan>
root will get you full untrusted, oem unlock on modern devices will get you CTS fail
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: Forgot that IRC doesn’t show replies, was replying to the statement of Apple using Linux for silicon validation
<marcan>
my LineageOS Nexus 4a passes basicIntegrity but not CTS for this reason
<marcan>
which is good enough for some apps that use SafetyNet, but e.g. not Google Pay
<Namidairo>
they're slowly moving to attestation in trusted compute
<marcan>
timetheory[m]: because Linux is easy-ish to port and makes for a very good hardware test case
<marcan>
same reason corellium did their port...
<timetheory[m]>
Don’t they already have XNU though?
<marcan>
linux is easier to port than XNU and exercises things XNU does not
<marcan>
plus it's good to have two OSes to test with
<marcan>
I expect they especially use Linux for CPU silicon validation
<marcan>
so they probably don't have drivers for everything
<marcan>
but they will run a ton of CPU stress tests and such
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<marcan>
it's also a good test of ARM spec compat (*cough* and they already broke that with E2H=1 *cough*)
<timetheory[m]>
marcan: do they really care if it’s compatible with the spec though since it’s not like they’re officially intending for anyone to be writing bare metal code
<marcan>
they definitely care that it's compatible with the spec for userspace code
<timetheory[m]>
And stuff has to be ported to macOS anyways for user space
<marcan>
and ARM will get very angry if they do something horribly wrong for kernel mode
<marcan>
no, think: VMs
<marcan>
and there is lots of ARM64 userspace code you would *not* want to have to port to macOS
<marcan>
(e.g. sharing code with Android)
<chadmed>
well it is ostensibly a condition of their architecture license that any core design they bill as "arm" has to be compatible. dunno why they were allowed to break spec in this case but im guessing theyve likely been warned internally not to do it again.
<timetheory[m]>
chadmed: They haven’t really been advertising it as ARM though, they’ve been calling it Apple Silicon
<Arahael>
chadmed: And I don't think we know the specifics of their license, do we? They were technically one of the original founders, weren't they?
<marcan>
apple are definitely pushing things with impdef extensions not allowed by the spec, but as far as I know the only actual compat break so far is the E2H thing
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<chadmed>
timetheory[m]: youre thinking too small as well. its "fine" for desktop macos but apple has big plans for their silicon, namely HEDT and server (the latter being rumours but seems logical). if they want to be taken seriously in these spaces they cant be breaking arm spec
<marcan>
timetheory[m]: it's not about the branding; to be able to implement the ARM instruction set they need a license
<marcan>
this isn't like USB where the only thing that matters is the logo
<marcan>
but anyway, user/kernel mode both need to be compatible for VMs to work
<Arahael>
In any case, I'm excited for the future in computer hardware, oddly enough. I felt we had stagnated with the Intel monopoly of all this.
<marcan>
and they absolutely want to support running windows/linux in VMs
<chadmed>
also what marcan just said. billing something as "arm" isnt about the marketing, its about having the right to implement the instruction set. it is not openly licensed, and apple wouldve signed a massive massive contract to acquire their perpetual architecture license that says arm can revoke it if apple break the spec.
<marcan>
(note that the E2H break is about hypervisor mode, so it doesn't apply to VMs, which is why they work)
<timetheory[m]>
I still never understood why archs can be copyrighted
<marcan>
they can't
<chadmed>
this is similar to how SPARC is/used to be licensed. you couldnt legally produce a "SPARC" core unless it passed validation tests and conformed to the ISA as set out in the manual. if your core broke this spec the SPARC Consortium (basically just Oracle) would not validate your core
<marcan>
they can be patented though
<timetheory[m]>
ARM is patented?
<marcan>
all commercial ISAs are
<timetheory[m]>
Would that mean that 64 bit x86 is expiring in 2 years?
<marcan>
yes
<timetheory[m]>
Since according to Wikipedia it was introduced in 2003
<marcan>
the way this works is they keep adding extensions, so you can't release a modern x86 CPU since people expect things like AVX to work
<marcan>
but yes, you could clone the original opteron if you wanted to in a couple years
<marcan>
with SSE2
<marcan>
similarly, I'm pretty sure ARM can't stop you from releasing an ARM7 compatible CPU or something, though they might try
<chadmed>
watch them become patent trolls if the nvidia deal goes through :P
<marcan>
I sure hope that gets blocked
<Arahael>
What's that nvidea deal?
<chadmed>
likewise. thankfully that looks very likely. the UK isn't keen on it and nor is the EU
<marcan>
they're trying to buy ARM
<chadmed>
Arahael: nvidia is looking to buy Arm from SoftBank
<chadmed>
theyve reached an agreement to do so for ~$40bn US, but the UK, EU, US and Chinese governments are in the process of putting a stop to it
<Arahael>
A shame how nvidia has turned out. I remember more than 15 years ago I actually liked Nvidia.
<Namidairo>
meanwhile also implementing their gpu coprocessors in risc-v
<chadmed>
nvidia was never a good company and they never made particularly good products.
<chadmed>
leather jacket man is easily one of the most disingenous and awful people in the industry
<i509vcb[m]>
at least amd caught up in raster performance this gen, although good luck getting a gpu
<Arahael>
Well, 15 years ago I was a kid, really, but they seemed to have better drivers in those days.
<chadmed>
and just this week there have been grumblings from AIBs that theyre trying to resurrect the GeForce Partner Program to lock AIBs out of making good intel cards
<i509vcb[m]>
intel trying to enter the high end gpu space is definitely interesting to watch
<chadmed>
im interested only insofar as how much they will focus on improving their linux drivers and if their flooding of the market will shatter the gpu scalper bubble
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<phire>
You can actually get supprisingly far without AVX
<phire>
it's only in the last few years that a few games have started requiring it by default
<sorear>
phire: avx is disabled by fuse in Pentium-branded parts for market segmentation reasons -> software can't rely on it -> baseline ISA patents expiring soon ... huge own goal by itnel if i've understood it correctly
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<phire>
in our testing, a few games end up accentally depending on it
<phire>
but in general most applcations/games keep the SSE4 codepath around, if not an SSE2 codepath
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<marcan>
j_ey: in general caching is not bad, avoids reads
<marcan>
(which are slower since they stall)
<marcan>
though this fabric is nGnRnE so writes stall too, but not as badly since they have no deps
<j_ey>
marcan: yeah, but I need to bypass the cache when the register is an input
<marcan>
hopefully regmap can do that for you, otherwise it'd be quite broken
<j_ey>
I'm trying to figure out the best way of doing that, there doesn't seem to be a regmap_read_no_cache function.
<j_ey>
I can (so far that I've found), either turn off caching for the entire map (so maybe need some locking), or using a callback function I can say if a register is volatile or not (and only say its volatile if its an input reg)
<j_ey>
(those are regcache_cache_bypass or the volatile_reg callback)
<alyssa>
steev: Mali GPUs can implement full opengl with varying amounts of hacks. Arm does not do so. Panfrost does a partial "as-is" OpenGL 3.1 implementation (not conformant but good enough for common linux software)
<marcan>
j_ey: if it doesn't implement caching on demand only then maybe it's not a good fit
<j_ey>
I will talk to the regmap maintainer, if I can't work it out soon
<marcan>
you can just reply to the review email with your findings
<j_ey>
(regmap maintainer works at the same place as me, so hopefully I can get help :P)
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<j_ey>
oh.. I just realised I can do a normal readl in the non-cache case, and dont use regmap for that one call
<alyssa>
j_ey: but then the cache will be stale?
<j_ey>
hm. I clearly need to read more about the regmap APIs!
<j_ey>
other GPIOs hw are different in that the registers are split differently. in apple's pinctrl a register has all its value in one place. other GPIO/pinctrl have registers like: GPIO_DATA where each bit corresponds to the output data of pin n
<j_ey>
so you can say GPIO_DATA is a 'volatile' register in regmap
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<marcan>
alyssa: but the cache doesn't care about the read bit
<marcan>
the cache is for writes
<marcan>
you don't *want* to update it when you read the pin
<marcan>
is that function supposed to return the written value for outputs?
<marcan>
or is it only used for inputs?
<marcan>
if it's supposed to work for outputs then I guess that makes sense
<j_ey>
uhh, good point
<j_ey>
I need to look into that too, I think it might be for both
<marcan>
yay, I think I fixed the i2c/hpm init fail in m1n1
<j_ey>
(at least corelliums keyboard code seems to call get() on an output reg, but that might just be wrong, will look at more examples)
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<steev>
alyssa: ah, crud, i was hoping for 3.3 like freedreno so i could use alacritty :)
<psykose>
if you want something similarly minimal you can try foot
<steev>
yeah, i'm using foot, i just prefer alacritty
<j_ey>
alyssa: can you test the new pinctrl patch (when its ready), before I send it out?
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<povik>
hm, the oftc webchat client disconnected me silently
<povik>
anyway, i pulled pmgr changes and bought a better flash drive for rootfs
<povik>
this is... pretty fast
<povik>
i am not running anything graphical
<povik>
bet the difference would be more stark if i did
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<povik>
although the primordial sound card disappeared, and i dont know why
<povik>
so so far i see this as net loss
<marcan>
povik: I2S probably depends on the SIO power domain, you'd better add that power-domain especially if you don't have console on UART (which would also keep it alive)
<povik>
already did
<povik>
this is something that has to do with linux more than with hardware
<marcan>
oh
<povik>
the sound card does not register with alsa
<marcan>
I see
<marcan>
just caused by the linux version then, probably?
<povik>
hm?
<povik>
i did change the base linux version if that's what you mean
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<alyssa>
marcan: Mm, ok.
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<alyssa>
steev: The only big feature missing for GL3.3 is geometry shaders which are unlikely to ever be supported... I don't /think/ alacritty uses them
<alyssa>
In theory you could set env var `PAN_MESA_DEBUG=gl3` and get GL3.3 that'll crash if you try to use geometry shaders or whatever
<alyssa>
In practice that'll work for alacritty but break some other things so don't tell me if you do it, only do it on an app-specific basis (there is never a good reason to put PAN_MESA_DEBUG in a system-wide environment), and don't complain if it breaks ;-)
<alyssa>
j_ey: Not this weekend (it's Thanksgiving), maybe Tuesday
<j_ey>
alyssa: ok! have a fun thxgiving
<j_ey>
there's one bit in particular that I currently can't test
<dottedmag>
alyssa: Does macos also skip this bit of OpenGL in their macos->metal translation layer?
<dottedmag>
*opengl->metal
<alyssa>
🤷
<alyssa>
j_ey: which bit?
<j_ey>
well all the PCIe stuff I dont have, but I meant there's one particular change that I would like to try
<alyssa>
ah, sure
<alyssa>
technically you should have wifi on airs with lots of patches, and that would exercise pcie, but..
<j_ey>
exactly :D
<sven>
ethernet should just work as well
<sven>
oh wait
<sven>
nevermind
<sven>
j_ey: i can test ethernet and usb a if you give me a patch tomorrow
<j_ey>
sven: ty
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<steev>
alyssa: nope, i'm posting on twitter that you said to always set PAN_MESA_DEBUG=gl3
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<steev>
alyssa: seriously though, thanks. i had to do that with freedreno (or a similar) before we got full 3.3, but you're right, alacritty doesn't, it just claims to need it
<psykose>
there's a patch near the bottom that lets you drop the debug var.. but it's gonna be the same
<psykose>
indeed the features that alacritty needs past 3.1 are supported in panfrost
<kettenis>
a terminal emulator that requires, OpenGL, seriously?
<kettenis>
I suppose if all you have is a hammer...
<psykose>
opengl makes more sense in a terminal than the entire rest of the terminal stack
<i509vcb[m]>
Not sure if alacritty needing 3.3+ is a making of alacrity or glium
<psykose>
alacritty
<steev>
there used to be a fork that had gles2 and gles3, but sadly, that person deleted their github, and the archive stuff doesn't build correctly
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<alyssa>
steev: enjoy your overengineered terminal gpu stack :)
<steev>
:D
<steev>
but it's written in rust so it's okay :P
<psykose>
overengineered feels like the wrong word
<phire>
Well, 2d acceleration hardware doesn't exist anymore. If you want a fast terminal, you need to use 3d acceleration
<psykose>
i can't say i notice any speed difference whatsoever between foot and alacritty
<psykose>
but it's certainly one way to get there
<steev>
my big thing is, i already have an alacritty config i use everywhere else, i don't feel like customizing foot like that
<kettenis>
a modern CPU is plenty fast to render the contents of your terminal
<kettenis>
the only thing you really need to do the GPU for is compositing
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<psykose>
you say this but you have not felt the touch of windows terminal
<steev>
or havent used some arm processors
<phire>
The increased preformance of alacritty/kityy is noticable when scrolling in vim
<phire>
And can actually increase the execution speed of programs that dump a lot of output to stdout
<phire>
Though, IMO the vim (and other editors) scrolling speed should be solved by creating modern escape codes that tell the terminal to move whole blocks of the screen.
<klange>
In everything. ^[[S and ^[[T are literally the escape sequences for moving whole blocks of the screen and that's how vim and everything else scrolls.
<alyssa>
speaking of PonyOS for M1 when
<klange>
I have an RPi4 finally arriving today which will get the basics of aarch64 support going, so "eventually and not as a joke".
<alyssa>
😁
<alyssa>
how about sortix, is that still kicking?
<klange>
sortie is quite actively working on sortix, lots of exciting stuff happening there
<alyssa>
nice :-)
<klange>
(also ^[[L and ^[[M are for inserting and deleting lines, which may also be how it works, depending on terminfo)