marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<chadmed>
sorry just got home from uni, have we expressed dismay at the lack of M1 Pro/Max mac minis yet?
<krbtgt>
prob for a spring or next year event
<steev>
nsklaus_ they'll probably just keep doing what they do
<mort_>
so I wouldn't be surprised at all if they introduce iMac Pro and Mac Mini Pro with the 2C-Die at least
<mort_>
"Mac Mini Pro" is a weird name
<_jannau_>
seems a little challenging thermal wise, especially with a smaller enclosure. did apple sell intel minis with more than 65W TDP? M1 Max has at least 50W TDP
<mini>
their graphs showed ~55W power draw for a 32-core GPU alone
<mort_>
what would they call their bigger M1 chips? They already have M1, M1 Pro, M1 Max; would they go to M1 Pro Max like the iPhones
<mort_>
apparently the 2018 mini had a max power consumption of 122W
<mort_>
so the last Intel min
<mini>
the 2018 mini didn't have great thermal performance though
<mort_>
mini*
<mini>
even the base 65W i3 version peaked a lot higher
<mort_>
all the previous minis back to the mid 2010 model were 85W max, with some earlier models at 110W
<mort_>
do I want to pay $300 more for 2 more P-cores
<mort_>
or $417 more for 2 more P-cores and 2 more GPU cores
<mort_>
these prices aren't super cheap
<j_ey>
what did you expect? :P
<mort_>
this, I suppose
<mort_>
for real tho, they do seem really price competitive in terms of both specs and overall quality compared to high-end PC laptops
<mort_>
I may have to wait for benchmarks
<mort_>
the size and shape of the notch is pretty strange considering the lack of face id isn't it
<mort_>
not that I really care about face id
<mini>
yeah, given the notch exists I was half expecting face id
<mort_>
I would maybe guess that they know they want face ID on the mac, but couldn't or didn't want it for this generation, but also don't want the story next time to be "oh this mac has a stupid big notch now, eww"
<mini>
if it means we can have more screen space and a better webcam I don't mind it though
<mort_>
kind of like how they took all the "this phone doesn't have a headphone jack, eww" hit with the iPhone 7 so that it wasn't the main story when the X launched
<_jannau_>
there are some sketchy geekbench scores for the M1 Max. sketchy since the single thread score identical to the M1
<mini>
would be nice for my work colleagues to look better on video calls ;)
<mort_>
_jannau_: how identical? We would expect it to be pretty similar right, if the M1 Pro and Max literally uses the same icestorm and firestorm cores from the M1
<mort_>
they didn't mention a new process node, not even the improved TSMC 5nm one
<tophevich[m]>
mini: and you think higher resolution (more details) helps with that :D :P xD
<mini>
tophevich[m]: I hope it's a better sensor ;)
<mort_>
top's joke is that maybe a worse sensor helps them look more presentable because you're not seeing any details :p
<mini>
I know I know ;)
<mort_>
ah, wasn't sure if it was a woosh moment or not
<mort_>
_jannau_: that seems to match up if neither the M1 Max nor the 13" is thermally constrained (which they probably wouldn't be in a single-core test, right?) and use the same firestorm P-cores
<mini>
curious if it's the same frequencies, and what frequency it sustains if you load all of the P cores
<_jannau_>
I would expect that faster memory and larger L2 and system cache would improve the single core results
<chadmed>
do we know if the cores got a frequency bump? im assuming not since its the same cores on tsmc N5
<mort_>
right, good point
<mort_>
I don't know how cache constrained geekbench is, could it be that the M1's caches are already big enough that the entire dataset just ends up in cache and it doesn't have to touch RAM?
<chadmed>
well geekbench does a ton of different tests
<chadmed>
so it depends on what specific test its running. some of them seem infeasibly large to reside entirely in cache
<mort_>
base frequency 24MHz seems very very low
<mini>
I suspect that's a measurement error :)
<mini>
isn't that the frequency that the pcores could go right down to at the lowest pstate?
<mort_>
sounds plausible
<chadmed>
the lowest pstate is 600mhz isnt it?
<mort_>
it's good though, right, that the M1 pro and max seem to just be differently arranged parts from the M1? Seems like it would make it easier to port asahi to it
<mort_>
the new display processor might be an issue I guess, idk
<mort_>
display controller? Whatever
<chadmed>
assuming they havent changed any of the peripheral hardware then yeah it shouldnt be too much trouble. new DCP is unfortunate, though necessary for people to take these machines seriously
<mort_>
one thing I was thinking about: you can have the built-in high-res screen, then like 4 5k screens, and a 4k screen
<mort_>
if you put all those horizontally, I wonder if X11's 16-bit coordinates will start to become an issue
<chadmed>
what better reason to migrate to wayland then?
<mort_>
I haven't used X11 on a laptop in forever, desktop still uses X11 because nvidia but I'm hoping that'll change now that there's an nvidia driver with GBM
<chadmed>
must be nice, im still on kepler :P
<mort_>
hmm, shouldn't nouveau work pretty well then?
<chadmed>
i refuse to invest any more money into the PC platform though. once i get myself an m1 pro/max mac mini im saying goodbye to this platform forever
<chadmed>
tried nouveau a couple of months ago, just caused hard locks :(
<mort_>
:/
<mini>
chadmed: I seem to remember a 'practically stopped' state from the streams where cpu scaling was being looked at
<mort_>
I've never had luck with nouveau but my GPU is pascal so I figured it would probably at the very least work with an older architecture
<chadmed>
i think the most recent arch nouveau works with properly is fermi
<mini>
afaik pascal is the first GPU to have major problems with nouveau because nvidia started signing firmware
<chadmed>
or maybe 600 series kepler, but i have a 780
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<mort_>
btw, do y'all have issues with macOS's window management? If I'm in Widow 1 from App A, then cmd+tab to App B, then cmd+tab back to App A, I often end up with Window 2 from App A rather than the window I was using
<mort_>
never ever had this issue with gnome
<mort_>
I sometimes even alt+tab to App B, then back to App A, and end up on a black desktop
<ar>
mort_: yeah, it drives me crazy on my work mbp16
<mort_>
:/
<mort_>
I've been using Linux exclusively for a long time, just recently got an m1 MBA from work, I expected macOS to at least have the graphical stuff nailed down
<mort_>
gah again I cmd+tabbed to get back to my virtual machine but instead it switched to another window from the virtual machine management app
<nsklaus_>
windows and screen management are bad on macos, i'm suffering it too. and theming desktop is not allowed by apple and since bigsur macos lost one of it's main point going for itself: it used to look somewhat good, but no more. i hate bigsur and monterey new look
<mort_>
yea they don't look great, they're kind of relegated to looking okay now
<nsklaus_>
i hope asahi v1 is not too far away, hopefully november now
<mort_>
you can apparently get a full desktop up and running now and use it as a daily driver
<mort_>
software rendered though, until the GPU stuff is sorted out
<phire>
I'm just planning to run linux in a vm until asahi is ready
<nsklaus_>
i need keyboard, sound and wifi
<mort_>
ah
<j_ey>
nsklaus_: wifi works, keyboard too, sound is being worked on
<nsklaus_>
i'm on a macbookpro
<mort_>
aren't there patches for (at least some) of that stuff?
<j_ey>
and for sound you can use the usb adapter workaround
<nsklaus_>
j_ey: yes, you're correct of course, i was about to say they're all being worked on and almost already there
<j_ey>
you have to cherry-pick most things anyway so theyre just more stuff to cherry-pick :P
<sven>
just expect things to break every now and then
<mort_>
but yea it'll be nice when everything Just Works
<mort_>
without cherry-picked patches
<sven>
it'll probably a little more time until you can just take an upstream kernel
<sven>
i think 5.17-rc1 is the earliest goal we can hope for if you only want to stick to torvald's tree
<nsklaus_>
i'll wait a bit more for things to stabilize a bit, i plan on using asahi when a v1 gets out, it will already be quite early
<j_ey>
sven: and that's march..
<sven>
yup
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<sven>
i hope we'll have something usable in linux-next later this year
<mort_>
how is the storage situation? I recall the T1 SSD controller being a huge issue some years ago
<sven>
but who knows
<nsklaus_>
i supposed a first 'public v1' would be available before march
<sven>
maybe yes. maybe no.
<mort_>
is the T1/T2/etc stuff worked out? Or is it less of a problem on the M1 than on the Intel chips somehow?
<nsklaus_>
when if it's what it's gonna be then, so be it.
<nsklaus_>
-when
<j_ey>
mort_: there's no T2
<nsklaus_>
err
<sven>
T2 nvme is already supported by the linux upstream kernel. that dumb rumor just refuses to die
<nsklaus_>
i meant: if it's gonna be march, then so be it, i'll wait
<mort_>
to be honest I haven't looked at macs since 2016 when they broke everything, so the "macs don't work at all with Linux due to T1" thing is from around then
<mort_>
only really interested in them again now with the M1 stuff
<mini>
for window management on macOS, I use expose a lot
<mini>
(the multi-fingered upward swipe on a touchpad, or F3)
<sven>
it's mainly become dumb news sites had stories like "Apple deliberately broke nvme on T2 macs due to security" while in reality the nvme driver just needed a few quirks
<sven>
i think once people who knew what they were doing actually looked into it it took a few weeks until the patch to fix it was upstream
<mort_>
interesting
<mini>
there was a wonderful comment about this - apple does stuff because it's easier/makes sense for *them* on mac. not because they're deliberately trying to break everyone
<sven>
yup
<mort_>
yeah that seems mostly true
<mini>
they simply don't *care* about linux
<mini>
it doesn't enter the thought process
<sven>
yeah, but that doesn't make for a great news story and also can't be used to justify why apple sucks :D
<j_ey>
im sure there are some linux lovers there ;)
<mini>
conspiracy theories are more interesting news, it's true :)
<mini>
I'm sure there are a bunch of individual engineers at apple who are loving watching this project
<nsklaus_>
adding the notch to macs was not great thinking imho
<chadmed>
plasma menu panel ;)
<nsklaus_>
chadmed: what do you mean by that ?
<chadmed>
kde plasma has a menu bar that does the same thing as macos's so your windows wont overlap the notch
<nsklaus_>
how the notch is not gonna be in the way with using a plasma panel ?
<sven>
just configure your window manager to always fill those pixels with black if you hate it that much *shrug*
<j_ey>
sven: or blue, or white or green or lilac!
<chadmed>
plus its 70px _above_ 16:10 so just force a 16:10 res and it wont fill up
<nsklaus_>
i bet users will hate it and apple is gonna try to force it on everyone. in best case scenario it will take a year or two for them to acknowledge and remove it
<sven>
just like they added the headphone port back after a year or two!
<j_ey>
and removed the touchbar!
<nsklaus_>
like for the butterfly keyboard, and the touchbar, and the removal of magsafe ..etc ..
<mini>
the headphone port never left macs, did it?
<dottedmag>
It's not adding a notch, it's adding more screen estate, left and right to the camera.
<sven>
seriously, the notch results in extra screen real estate
<sven>
i really don't get it
<dottedmag>
sven: high five!
<sven>
:-)
<mini>
but I bet most users won't care. I think notches on phones are largely something that only a very few people care about. and yeah, ^ this re it actually gives you *more* space, not less
<j_ey>
the only thing is that the notch seems kinda wide?
<dottedmag>
I can think of UX that might be useful: move the cursor behind the notch, click, camera app pops up
<brentr123[m]>
Asahi Linux acting like the notch won’t exist isn’t a big deal right?
<chadmed>
federighi said today that theyll allow windows to run natively. unlocked iboot coming?
<mini>
they've always said they'd allow windows to run natively, it just requires MS to do the work
<mini>
I don't see why it would require anything special boot-policy wise over what we already have and use for linux
<mini>
(booting linux on M1 is not an exploit after all, it is an explicit design choice by apple to allow unsigned OSes)
<sven>
yeah, it's the same thing that we use
<chadmed>
true, actually. i always assumed m1n1 "pretended" to be a proper mach kernel
<sven>
might just mean that it gets even more polished
<j_ey>
chadmed: well just a MachO file
<nsklaus_>
chadmed: would you have a link for that statement of federighi ?
<sven>
and it'll maybe shut up people who claims that "apple will just locked this all down in a year or two"
<sven>
-s
<j_ey>
sven: that would be the best outcome!
<chadmed>
nsklaus_: yeah hang on im in a game of cs right now :D
<chadmed>
gimme a sec
<nsklaus_>
chadmed: last thing i knew was what mini said
<nsklaus_>
chadmed: sure, take your time, thanks
<mini>
there's a quote from one of the apple presenters from the M1 announce where they talked about allowing you to boot your own kernels etc anyway
<dottedmag>
Well, Widows would make it way harder for Apple to back up on the idea if they calculate they spend too much time on niche feature and decide to stop working on it (inevitably breaking).
<chadmed>
well itd be up to ms to write NT drivers for that i guess
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<chadmed>
ah nvm his quote was from 2020
<nsklaus_>
chadmed: that's probably the one i knew then, like mini said, apple allowing windows to be ported, but it's up to m$ to do it, and so far m$ haven't bothered. thanks for looking back for that info anyway
<mini>
I'm sure apple would *love* the marketing win of "a better ARM windows laptop than any Microsoft Surface"
<chadmed>
yeah thats my bad. i had misinterpreted what m1n1 was and just assumed it had to present itself as a valid mach kernel to pass iboot's checks
<chadmed>
as i have said many times before i am very very stupid
<marcan>
there are no "checks", there is just "apple designed the boot process a certain way and we have to fit into that"
<marcan>
m1n1 looks like a mach-o kernel the same way u-boot looks like a linux kernel (which is why m1n1 can boot it)
<marcan>
*xnu kernel
<marcan>
(mach-o is the format)
<nsklaus_>
marcan: please consider releasing a v1 before march :)
<marcan>
v1 of what?
<nsklaus_>
i call v1 a first public version of asahi
<marcan>
if you mean an end-user installable distro, sure, I certainly hope we do that this year
<marcan>
just need to keep ticking off boxes towards that goal
<nsklaus_>
i mean, a version that is less rough around the edges and more easily usable for more common linux users out there
<nsklaus_>
marcan: very good to hear :)
<chadmed>
i mean the installer as it stands makes it about as simple as any other arm board
<marcan>
well, once some driver corner cases are fixed we're basically there, as long as you accept lack of GPU/audio/USB3 (but audio is coming and USB3 is bound to pop to the top of my list if it doesn't sven's first)
<nsklaus_>
so far from what i can understand most of the work is already done, it just need to be consolidated together, and making sure installer preps everything (for example: wifi, firmwares, ..)
<nsklaus_>
gpu not being fully there is a bit harsh but i can bear with it, audio is a tough one though
<chadmed>
if youre just using it as a desktop its perfectly useable without the gp
<nsklaus_>
but i see it's all making very good progress
<nsklaus_>
chadmed: yes, that's why i said it's bearable, especialy since other reported it was fast
<nsklaus_>
i mean framebuffer being fast
<nsklaus_>
audio, wifi and keyboard are must have tough
<nsklaus_>
ah, trackpad too
<j_ey>
trackpad is the same driver as keyboard
<chadmed>
trackpad is just applespi
<chadmed>
^^^ what j_ey said
<nsklaus_>
j_ey: another good news then
<nsklaus_>
i can't wait for for it all to be consolidated together and installer to make sure it all install correctly
<jix>
btw, 10 years ago or so (my last data point on this) when using an apple trackpad under linux, it was really awful, a lot worse than good PC trackpads, while on mac os it was a lot better, so I assumed they did quite some processing on the raw data in software. Is that still the case?
<chadmed>
jix: my A1708 force touch trackpad is a dream to use with libinput
<chadmed>
multitouch gestures under gnome and plasma on wayland work fine too
<chadmed>
it astounds me that with all the unfathomable financial horsepower at the disposal of the PC industry, theres still not a suitable alternative to the macbooks. like, they just completeley surrender the "good-screen-good-trackpad-good-keyboard"
<jix>
glad to hear that... back then you couldn't even click without the cursor jumping away from what you wanted to click on
<chadmed>
market to apple
<chadmed>
it seems to me that you can sometimes get two of those three, but never all of them, in a PC laptop
<chadmed>
and even then you have to spend stupid amounts of money to get something barely as nice to use as a $1100 macbook air
<sven>
ah yes... usb 3 *sigh*
<sven>
that comes somewhere after nvme
<sven>
(unless marcan beats me to that)
<sven>
and then thunderbolt ofc which is going to be an even bigger mess
<JTL>
chadmed: I feel the commodity "boring x86 PC" industry has been on kind of a "race to the bottom" in terms of quality over the past 10 or so years...
<chadmed>
yeah it makes me quite sad tbh, especially with zombie brands like thinkpad which once had a mighty reputation
<chadmed>
i still have an old T30e in a drawer somewhere...
<JTL>
Glad we can agree on that
<jix>
so, new MBA aren't expected until some time next year right? haven't quite kept up with the rumours, want to buy a new laptop before december, and can't really justify getting an MBP for what I'd use it for
<sven>
i think so. and fwiw, i'm almost happy with the mba i have right now
<JTL>
chadmed: re libinput, similar results with my 2015 15" MBP as well
<sven>
the only thing that's a bit annoying is that it only supports a single external screen
<jix>
wouldn't be my daily driver anyway, just something for on the go
<sven>
perfectly fine for that
<sven>
i'll very likely keep using it for something on the go once the new mac minis come out
<jix>
until they release something with 128GB ram or more (+ that I can afford) I'll keep using my ryzen desktop
<chadmed>
im really waiting for an m1 max mini but i might just get myself an m1 air for uni if i do well this sem
<sven>
i just want something like 2x m1 max with 32gb ram and i'll be very happy
<sven>
(though my bank account might not be :D)
<chadmed>
sven: my problem right now too xD
<sven>
i could buy one of these mbps right now but it would be a pretty dumb financial decision to pat that much for a machine i'll stop using half a year from now :D
<sven>
*pay
<jix>
now only remaining question, do I order the MBA right now, or is there any reason for the price to go slightly down the next ~4 weeks or so ^^
<chadmed>
when have apple ever reduced prices :P
<jix>
no idea, haven't looked at apple products for over 10 years and back then I usually bought stuff right after it was announced
<JTL>
black fridays?
<JTL>
:P
<JTL>
(things might be a bit haywire these days because of supply chains though)
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<opticron>
jix, have you looked at used ones? not sure where you are, but swappa has several configurations available
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<nsklaus_>
personaly i don't care much about usb3 and thunderbolt, the only thing i plug on my laptop is an external drive from time to time. i would be quite happy with functional linux having just framebuffer, audio, wifi keyboard and all the base stuffs, nvme.. etc.. gpu, usb3, thunderbolt, bluetooth, touchbar, etc could come in their own time, in subsequent updates later on..
<nsklaus_>
but that's just me
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<Retr0id>
I'm reading the September progress report, and at various points a distinction is made between "platform" devices and pcie devices. How do platform devices work exactly? Are they like, directly mapped into physical memory?
<opticron>
that's what I gather
<_jannau_>
memory mapped io in the case of SoC, not expected to overlap with the physical mamory
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<Retr0id>
thanks
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<mort_>
hmm, how does Linux traditionally deal with variable refresh rate? It usually just tries to render as fast as possible and only goes below the max rate if it can't keep up, right?
<mort_>
Does the ProMotion stuff complicate that?
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<marcan>
that just depends on the app
<marcan>
compositors render when they need to
<marcan>
apps with vsync will try to render as fast as they can present
<marcan>
apps without vsync are basically dumb
<j_ey>
dumb bad?
<marcan>
I mean yeah, especially on a laptop, that's just wasting battery
<marcan>
I don't know how things work with truly variable refresh rate, if it's really arbitrary within limits (and not just "subset of 120Hz")
<marcan>
but driver-wise I wouldn't expect things to be too weird, userspace just presents whenever it wants within the minimums, I guess?
<marcan>
I imagine compositors will largely just deal with that
<marcan>
just things that try to lock to the screen refresh or do some time-related processing might get confused
<marcan>
VRR is already a thing anyway, e.g. on AMD
<j_ey>
marcan: uh, ive literally watched hours of videos of you streaming, and now i look at it again its obviously not blue
<marcan>
lol
* j_ey
files that under 'weird brain things'
<marcan>
tbf I do use an HDMI capture card along the way, so colors will be slightly mangled vs the real thing... but I did spend a bunch of time minimizing that
<marcan>
j_ey: OTOH, my wallpaper is blue, though it rarely shows on the streams :)