ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<Jbjoe>
Hi what’s the status of Asahi coming to FreeBSD ? Also has there been an update to internal mic working ?
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<nicolas17>
PaulFertser: I think Apple's DFU *does* use the standard USB DFU protocol
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<nicolas17>
but it's used to transfer a small ramdisk, which then takes over and uses Apple's custom recovery mode protocol
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<ByronJackson>
Anyone home?
<ByronJackson>
Will anyone mind if I ask a support question? I don't mean to be a bother but I've been trying to set up my machine for twelve hours.
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<ByronJackson>
The script alx.sh worked fine, except that I cannot figure out how to get rid of the reminant macos partition.
<PaulFertser>
ByronJackson: it's ok to ask, just wait now for someone to answer
<ByronJackson>
Thanks.
<PaulFertser>
ByronJackson: it's not exactly clear what and why you want to get rid of.
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<ByronJackson>
The alx.sh script only gave me the option of resizing the existing macos partition (or container, if that's the right jargon) and I cannot seem to get rid of it after the fact.
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<chaos_princess>
This is by design, deleting macos is technically possible, but is not supported for a bunch of reasons.
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<ByronJackson>
Technically possible? Do tell.
<chaos_princess>
no? It is a bad idea, and you will have to figure it out yourself if you really want to do it :P
<chaos_princess>
Deleting macos makes certain future maintenance tasks much harder.
<ByronJackson>
Like what?
<chaos_princess>
System firmware updates, and machine owner keys are shared with the macos install, so when we get native disk encryption/touch id, it would require you to reinstall fully.
<ByronJackson>
I'm just using the UEFI environment to load OpenBSD.
<ByronJackson>
I'm also fine without firmware updates.
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<chadmed>
the disk is just a gpt disk so if you really really really want to delete macos, just remove the gpt partition corresponding to that install's apfs container. you will not get any support from anyone if you do this though, and this does break a whole bunch of stuff
<ByronJackson>
Much obliged.
<chadmed>
also you are most certainly not fine without firmware updates. the apple fw abi is unstable and often times features in bsd/linux will be gated behind you having a specific firmware version
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<PaulFertser>
If only firmware was redistributable
<PaulFertser>
Probably if you have a friend who doesn't mind wasting SSD space on macOS the new blobs can be just copied over?
<jannau>
also do not ever delete the first or last apfs partition and keep the partition order linear
<jannau>
that's very likely not going to work for iboot loaded firmware
<PaulFertser>
Is it personalised per machine?
<jannau>
I'd expect it uses a version dependent key to sign the firmware or is at least otherwise version matched
<chaos_princess>
personalized, img4 files should contain the ECID key
<PaulFertser>
Slick
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<ByronJackson>
I'm not sure I understand why the firmware should change so often. The mac replaces my eleven-year-old desktop, which recived exactly one firmware update.
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<fl0_id>
ByronJackson afaik it changes usually at least once per major version update
<fl0_id>
if nothing else, to have a consistent firmware across supported devices afaik
<chadmed>
ByronJackson: it's a philosophical difference and also partly due to the demarcation between "firmware" and "operating system" being different on this platform
<chadmed>
there is no "bios
<chadmed>
or runtime services or whatever, the firmware on each coprocessor is tightly integrated with that device's function. a lot of our linux drivers are basically just writing a pointer to a firmware command structure to a mailbox and hitting a doorbell
<ByronJackson>
I guess? If the firmware works well enough in the first place then constant abi changes are just a nuisance.
<chadmed>
yeah but no point sooking about it. we dont control the platform, thats just how it is
<chadmed>
we have mechanisms to deal with this sanely but you have to keep macos around
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<chaos_princess>
if the way this platform does things looks confusing, it is because the mental model should not be "a pc with an arm cpu", but "an oversized iphone with macos and unlocked bootloader"
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<PaulFertser>
ByronJackson: on a desktop you also get firmware updates, e.g. for wifi adapters (quite often), for USB printers, for GPUs etc etc. It's just that apple hardware is special and you have plenty of additional CPUs on board that you need to talk to for doing useful things. If the current Asahi feature set covers all your usecase then you won't be forced to upgrade firmware most probably. But new
<PaulFertser>
features are likely to require firmware versions that would be current by the time those features are developed.
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<monthebiff>
is there any news/ rumblings on power efficiency/ battery life on the m1pro chips? I had the sad experience of wondering why my laptop wasn't turning on after someone unplugged it to move it :P
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<chaos_princess>
done when its done and not a second sooner :P
<monthebiff>
but thats such a tease though :P
<PaulFertser>
IBM PC mental model isn't much useful for any modern hardware, including amd64. The days of VESA VBE, APM and A20 gating are long gone, things are done very differently now. But you still depend on things outside the OS kernel even after passing control to it: ACPI tables for detecting on-board hardware and ACPI bytecode for runtime power-related actions on typical x86 platforms, and calls into
<PaulFertser>
TF-A via PSCI on common Arm-based systems.
<chaos_princess>
monthebiff: (the actual answer is that i haven't looked at it since the last time i gave an "update")
<monthebiff>
still a tease
<PaulFertser>
And of course those "CISC" CPUs like their microcode updates.
<chaos_princess>
right, but the qualcomm thing that WoA runs on is much closer to "standard x86 platform but arm" than arm macs
<chaos_princess>
they have uefi, they pretend that they have acpi and so on
<PaulFertser>
Arm requires ACPI for their server platforms now :/
<PaulFertser>
And I'm not sure it's just a great advantage.
<chaos_princess>
i do not remember what is in that spec, but "arm requires X" is kind of a meme, their platform requirements tend to be 80% exceptions by volume
<PaulFertser>
I guess for someone familiar with WiFi this analogy might work: where you're used to have SoftMAC-like solutions the Apple hardware offers you FullMAC, and they change the API to those "FullMAC" devices any moment they feel like because they control both sides of the API.
<chaos_princess>
PaulFertser: imo, while i do not like some engineering choices in acpi, it is still an insanely great advantage of x86 platform. being able to just flash a random iso and it mostly just working is great
<PaulFertser>
And Asahi devs do RE and implement APIs of the (typically) most recent stable version available so that it works on the widest range of devices possible (Apple provides newer firmware for older devices but not older firmware for newer devices).
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<fl0_id>
afaik the device trees used on many arm devices could also work very well, at least if they would come with docs and would contain all necessary info
<PaulFertser>
chaos_princess: only that talking about laptops you know how many custom acpi-specific (also wmi) code there is in Linux with probably a hundred of model-specific quirks. And how Linux pretends to be a certain windows version when interpreting the obscure bytecode, and then on some models or UEFI versions it needs to pretend being a different windows version etc etc. Pure filth.
<chaos_princess>
PaulFertser: oh, i know, but it is still way better than the situation on arm/riscv
<PaulFertser>
fl0_id: device trees do not provide those bytecode snippets. And that's a great thing to not have to use them.
<chaos_princess>
fl0_id: not the way device trees are used rn. device trees are tied to kernel version, so what you need is a "prototype device tree" that is provided by the bootloader, and gets transformed into "real device tree" that is used by the kernel. And acpi could be alright as a "proto device tree"
<chaos_princess>
PaulFertser: hot(?) take: bytecode snippet good. what shouldn't exist is smm calls
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<PaulFertser>
On typical Arm you have DT describing hardware, standard PSCI calls to handle power management. You just grab aarch64 image and boot it on any system, feels OK in my experience.
<chaos_princess>
PaulFertser: where is your dts coming from
<PaulFertser>
The schematics for the board.
<chaos_princess>
no, what loads it, kernel or platform firmware?
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<chaos_princess>
(both choices have downsides, and there are no other choices)
<PaulFertser>
Well, normally it should be the platform firmware but in fact usually Linux+BSD devs are much better than the vendor so you probably have to count on them keeping it sane and up-to-date and use what's on kernel.org rather than provided by the vendor.
<chaos_princess>
right, so kernel. And at this point you no longer have forward compatibility, as "random iso you found on a usb stick" will not have the dts for your shiny new arm server
<PaulFertser>
chaos_princess: bytecode is probably good because you can kind of RE it easier and do you own thing if needed.
<sven>
yeah, i prefer bytecode i could RE if i wanted to over some invisible mystery blob running in EL3 or whatever
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<PaulFertser>
DTs are forward-compatible. So the vendor releases a new shiny server, prepares DT which works with at least some Linux version actual at the time, ships this DT with platform firmware. Newer kernel shouldn't have a problem using this older DT. And when some important changes are needed a newer DT can be used instead.
<chaos_princess>
except the dts is not forward compatible apparently, as i had repeatedly found out :P
<PaulFertser>
I thought Rob and friends care a lot about not breaking compatibility where it matters.
<fl0_id>
chaos_princess mmh ok makes sense. thx for clarifying
<chaos_princess>
might be for kernel dts, but if it is provided by platform firmware, then who knows
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<PaulFertser>
Well, recently I had issues simply booting an x86 laptop (some asus expertbook). Debian 6.1 booted fine but lacked Xe driver for GPU. Debian 6.12 hanged hard after initing USB host interfaces, no panic no error no nothing, and I have no clue if SysRq worked because I couldn't find SysRq. Same about Debian 6.13. But somehow Fedora 6.12 booted just fine. With 6.1 the ax211 firmware was older and
<PaulFertser>
hanged the wifi right away so it wasn't usable at all. With Fedora 6.12 it was loading newer ax211 firmware and it worked but not the Bluetooth part (it just wasn't replying to driver). And on top of that the internal speakers didn't work at all while 3.5 mm socket did. Go figure.
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<PaulFertser>
So probably same if not worse deal with the firmware versions, changing their APIs, different partially independent issues with wifi firmware, bluetooth firmware, soundcard firmware...
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<ByronJackson>
would bet so much money that apple uses the remaining partition as a staging area for datamining. 40GB is a huge amount of space to store the tooling and the information it extracts. the machine is plenty capable. it would be so easy. "choo choo, here comes another encrypted firmware update for... security". i'm gonna nuke it. thanks all! see ya later.
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<chaos_princess>
lol
<chaos_princess>
lmao, even
<sven>
that bet sounds like easy money for whoever takes it, lol
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<jannau>
not if you have to convince the betting partner that they have lost the bet
<sven>
true
<chaos_princess>
they sound like the kind of person to use a ddr3 thinkpad with coreboot and me_cleaner, and probably a hardware shitcoin wallet :P
<PaulFertser>
You meet the nicest people on a Honda^W^W OpenBSD forum ;)
<chadmed>
poes law
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<PaulFertser>
Now imagine I'm both ironic and serious at the same time, what would you call /that/ and what emoticon should I use? Because, seriously, coreboot is great, me_cleaner is great, I honestly would be happy to see more people using and contributing to it rather than giving money to apple for their shiny new toys. Do you really want all that DDR5 bandwidth because you "need" to run a text editor
<PaulFertser>
running on a JavaScript virtual machine in parallel to nested VMs (emulated WinAPI over emulated x86 over arm64 4k Linux over arm64 16k Linux over hypervisor), a bunch of docker containers (easy and reliable to deploy) and other containers (Flatpacks and appimages because why bother packaging properly)? Is that your dream technology world?..
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<chaos_princess>
if you do not like a text editor running on a javascript virtual machine, there are alternatives :P like a text editor running on a java virtual machine, or a text editor running on a lisp virtual machine.
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<PaulFertser>
At some point I was running a cellphone interface in that lisp virtual machine on ARMv4T with just 128 MiB SDRAM and also edited some Haskell code, it was all snappy enough. So not all of them are /that/ demanding.
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<Zeroine>
Can the system firmware that's installed by MacOS updates be downgraded or would a reset in the "Erase All Content & Settings" get it to downgrade? IIRC the "Erase All Content & Settings" also got you back to the MacOS you originally had and from what I understand the system firmware isn't ABI compatible so it should probably be reset to the old version as well, right?
<chaos_princess>
yes, it can, but only by dfu restore to an ipsw of the firmware version you want
<chaos_princess>
but that is for system firwmare, not the os-paired firmware
<Zeroine>
Ah I see, which one is the one that the WiFi firmware comes with, is that from the system or the OS firmware?
<chaos_princess>
os
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<Zeroine>
Nice, thanks
<chaos_princess>
all asahi installs except for extremely ancient ones are using 13.5 firmware (some ancient non-fedora installs may be using 12.3)
<chaos_princess>
wifi firmware is also a bit of a special case since it is not loaded by iboot but by the os, so in theory you can mix and match that one (but you shouldnt)
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<Zeroine>
Ah, btw how do you check the version of the OS and the system?
<Zeroine>
The OS firmware is just the same as the MacOS version?
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<chaos_princess>
os-paired - 13.5 unless you are doing things wrong, system - `cat /sys/firmware/devicetree/base/chosen/asahi,system-fw-version`, or whatever is the latest version of macos that was ever installed on this machine
<Zeroine>
Any way to check this on MacOS though?
<chaos_princess>
latest version of macos that was ever installed on this machine
<Zeroine>
Oh wait, nvm
<Zeroine>
yeah
<Zeroine>
Thanks a lot <3
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<Zeroine>
Looks like the "Erase All Content & Settings" didn't go back to an older MacOS version =/
<Zeroine>
I did a DFU once I guess that was what made me go back to an older version back then
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<fl0_id>
Zeroine which is what ppl told you above ^^
<fl0_id>
well for system firmware. but erase content and settings likely just nukes data partition, keeping system intact I would assume
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<Zeroine>
Yeah sorry I misunderstood
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<quaff>
lol I did something stupid. before rebooting after a kernel upgrade.. I uninstalled docker (didn't need it?) and I am not sure why but the initramfs didn't generate (according to grub) for the latest kernel I upgraded to. what's the best way to boot into a fedora live image or something to chroot and generate initramfs?
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<jannau>
quaff: do you still have oold kernels/initramfs'?
<quaff>
is the gentoo asahi livecd the best case for this?
<quaff>
jannau: not sure, I can't boot in
<quaff>
I would suspect I don't tho, cause the upgrade removed the old kernel
<jannau>
press esc directly after "booting: nvme0" to access the grub menu
<jannau>
there should be the 3 most recent kernels still present
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<quaff>
jannau: do you know what the command is to check once i'm in that grub menu?
<quaff>
I can't remember what the HD device name/path is and ls is asking for a specific interface
<jannau>
quaff: there should be a menu with 3 options
<jannau>
press esc only once
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<quaff>
I don't think it gets to grub. sorry. it stays at the u-boot part. "Hit any key to stop autoboot: X"
<quaff>
when it tries to boot grub, it says "error <initramfs_path> not found"
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<quaff>
then it goes to a screen that says "KERNEL PANIC! VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)"
<jannau>
press esc after the timeout has expired and "Booting: nvme 0" appears. you have to be quick
<jannau>
if it doesn't work we could recover via u-boot
<quaff>
ohhhhhh gotcha. I see it. booting into the previous kernel now 🙏
<quaff>
thank you jannau ❤️
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<quaff>
ahhh evdi driver was breaking the kernel upgrade. uninstalled it and re-installed the latest kernel upgrade. everything is working again 🫡 thanks again jannau!
<PaulFertser>
quaff: what's your impression so far about evdi?
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<quaff>
PaulFertser: it allowed me to have an external monitor so it was awesome lol but I don't play games or need anything where the lag (it's minor but noticeable) bothered me much. Now that I'm not daily driving the macbook, I can get away with removing it. It was finnicky in the sense that upgrades could break it (which it has a few times now).
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<quaff>
I'd have love to keep daily driving it, even with evdi. but my new job needs a laptop with 32GB+ RAM 😅 and my macbook only has 16GB. So had to switch to a different laptop for my daily driver.
<quaff>
evdi added about 2GB of ram usage too. so that was hard on the memory management.
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<PaulFertser>
quaff: so the lag wasn't annoying for regular tasks? Did you probably have sound stuttering while external display was updating?
<PaulFertser>
quaff: I'm a bit curious what kind of job requires 32+ GiB RAM if you can share a glimpse into that.
<quaff>
no issues with sound. it wasn't annoying. I got used to it after a day or so. it's noticeable though, don't get me wrong lol but I code and browser the web mostly, wasn't too much I did that needed the 0 lag a usb-c monitor would provide
<quaff>
PaulFertser: I'm a full stack web dev, and local development I do require having a lot of services in docker running. my new machine is like a jet engine when I'm working on the heavier parts of the application 😂
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<PaulFertser>
quaff: just wow. This web thing really got out of control :)
<PaulFertser>
Thank you for sharing evdi experience. Some people complained here about issues, good to know is probably no longer the case and a sane option when latency on external display doesn't matter that much.
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<quaff>
it is. the react app portion (of course it's react) is a bit nuts. but evdi has allowed me to code on a monitor instead of my 13" screen. so it was nice. just depends on your use case
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<quaff>
PaulFertser: for sure. glad to share 🙏
<PaulFertser>
But react runs on browser side, so on every web site user machine.
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<chaos_princess>
it is a competitive advantage, your website is the only thing the user will run :P
<quaff>
there's a server side component too (nextjs) so as a dev, you get both lol
<PaulFertser>
I'm not sure if I should be happy about being involved in a backend development using C++ rather than JS or not :)
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<quaff>
haha I would rather with rust, but alas, I'm still too newb to get hired for a rust application 😂
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<leio>
there's #asahi-offtopic for such chat btw (I might participate there, not here)
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<fl0_id>
PaulFertser depending on what you mean by "webdev" that is easy. I once worked on deployment of a stack that involved openstack and docker. and that had several services, and several vms for each scenario of a cyber range. I had to test it in the cloud. but some of it would have been much nicer if I could have tested locally. That is one reason why I got a lot of ram
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<quaff>
leio: I was thinking the conversation has gone that route 🥲🙏
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<drasterix>
Hi all , I'm Santi from spain running wonderfull asahi-ubuntu distro in a flame new apple M1
<drasterix>
hi , there is somebody there ?
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<drasterix>
I've been running ubuntu linux on a Macbook air for 11 years now
<drasterix>
I've had to change battery couple of times , but it was the most perfect portable soft-hard combination ever ...
<fl0_id>
drasterix there are ppl here. but replies can take time. if you have a question, just ask. and then wait
<drasterix>
now I need some more CPU/GPU/Mem so I moved to the M1 ...sorry for disturbing I'll be patient
<drasterix>
Thanks fl0_id
<drasterix>
well I'm having some problems with APT since couple of weeks ago ...