ChanServ changed the topic of #dri-devel to: <ajax> nothing involved with X should ever be unable to find a bar
<timestwo>
as for the commodity equipment i expect uart to still work out, the protocol is fairly simple, but there is some pretty big commune against me, i have looked into ports and something is rippling behind the nat, but even without this port hcdp is capable of signaling something, but it can be turned off i assume, since i was able to photograph the nand chip next to cpu, they had death metal code against my attempts in bitcoining
<timestwo>
it is a vulnerability of the amt hw
<timestwo>
its content protection code, but i only use open source, though i violate youtube so... whatever
<timestwo>
this comes from intel patents and things about project ultraviolet, this theory is also pretty simple
<timestwo>
the display leds amplify a ghost signal on networking that is hidden in fw
<timestwo>
it is possible to jam signals, of course it is illegal in most countries, i only tried against wifi , and was able to get into the boot logo, but some legal authorities also applied a pre-boot fingerprint technology, which can be beaten with spi programmer maybe with uart too, i have a last look at it, but that ghost signaling was adjusted to satellite direct comm and 3g which i am not interested to jam anymore
<timestwo>
death metal can do it over 3g and up masts too
<timestwo>
i was biochiped after i got marked very young, classified as some alien to be abused, i kept playing but felt weird, but i did so much training before that event of abuse, i actually know how to treat the ball in soccer , if that is what they meant, it is physical timing of the performance, you can aim to vertical heights by having the performance slightly adjusted in timing, you bring the shoulders bit infront in the middle of the
<timestwo>
swing back with the leg , so that ball takes a vertical height , but the performance requires strong neck and back and hand muscles to be held firm, so that there is no random deviation or error, then the passes go very accurate, in pool i have unorthodox style, the most lethal potting technique for my body is, you stretch the lower leg of the opposite of shot hand to front, so you can straing a bit the back tendonds, and hold the
<timestwo>
butt or hip pretty high, again neck is pulled back from the same side and kept strong, then you pull the shot hand hip which has a straight leg instead, and measure something like 30cm distance from it, to get a lethal swing and aim at the shot, they tried to injure me, but did not succeed yet, my tendons are near to recover and neck
<timestwo>
my main athletic career was in table tennis, where i played many tournaments, but i did others sports, i suppose i can do it to some degree yet, and no longer fight the impossible
alanc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
alanc has joined #dri-devel
<bl4ckb0ne>
timestwo: thats a chan about gpu development, you might be better off with a more relevant channel about embedded dev
<timestwo>
you know linux puts the uart interrupts for tx and rx on different IRQs so it can not work this way, to nop the pointer connecting load , it needs a microcontroller nrf way to do it, so on zephyr one would need to throw in an app_config.h with bunch of defines, and intrude into the hw with physical uart protocol NOPing the pointers connecting load, and jumping hence to it's code pointed
<zmike>
it's just spam, ignore and wait for someone to ban
<timestwo>
bl4ckb0ne: it's actually solved , you want the divine
<timestwo>
compiler
<timestwo>
and it will perform like a miracle, it's authored for LLVM
<timestwo>
gpu is just a more resources parallel units cpu
<timestwo>
all that algorithm works well on gpus too, even better, cause they have more parallel units
<bl4ckb0ne>
fairly sure ive seen that bloke spamming other channels
<timestwo>
failry sure, you neved authored a single sane line too
<timestwo>
unlike me, who is a big contributor to theories
<bl4ckb0ne>
fair point
timestwo has quit []
<penguin42>
thanks
<HdkR>
kode54: Nice. Sounds heavily untested
<kode54>
the uAPI declaration is nasty too
<kode54>
instead of actually having any pointer members anywhere, it just has u64 members and uses some intel_48b_address macro to fill them out
rasterman has quit [Quit: Gettin' stinky!]
<kode54>
maybe I'll look into it if they're not interested right now
<kode54>
I mean, i915 only compat's a single function
<kode54>
so maybe there's one I need to wrap properly
penguin42 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
co1umbarius has joined #dri-devel
columbarius has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<HdkR>
kode54: Pointers as u64 instead of pointers is recommended in uapi. With 32-bit just eating the zeroing of the upper bits.
<HdkR>
No idea what that macro will do though
<ishitatsuyuki>
yeah, using pointers is how you end up with ioctls requiring manual compat variant
<kode54>
the macro zeroes the upper 16 bits of a u64 by doing an up then downshift
<kode54>
I need to trace why it crashes
<kode54>
luckily it's crashing in userspace and not causing a kp
<airlied>
that sounds like a gpu addr vs a cpu ptr
epoll has joined #dri-devel
<kode54>
aha, yes
<kode54>
the API is full of u64_to_user_ptr calls
<kode54>
looks like I'll have to adapt this if I want it to work
<kode54>
or not?
eukara has joined #dri-devel
a-865 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.16 [SeaMonkey 2.53.16/20230320105641]]
a-865 has joined #dri-devel
<kode54>
this may just be something I need to fix in Mesa
<kode54>
since the uAPI is sound
<kode54>
uAPI entirely uses u64 for user pointers
<kode54>
the only fix the kernel needed was setting compat_ioctl to drm_compat_ioctl, because all the rest of the DRM functions have arch specific pointers in use that need fixing for several functions
<kode54>
whereas the Xe uAPI uses u64 for all user pointers
<kode54>
and requires the user space code to just deal with that
<kode54>
building a debug mesa to test this
bmodem has joined #dri-devel
<airlied>
most modern drivers should have all ioctls being compat from the start
<kode54>
I need to somehow build a mesa that lets me have symbols
<airlied>
--buildtype=debug should do that
Danct12 has joined #dri-devel
<kode54>
the debug files have no symbols
<kode54>
I am using buildtype=debug
<kode54>
oh, damn
<kode54>
how did that get there
<kode54>
--strip
<kode54>
it shouldn't even be using that option anyway, since pacman can strip and separate debugging symbols
<kode54>
okay, this is what's failing, in iris_bo_alloc
<kode54>
if (!bufmgr->kmd_backend->gem_vm_bind(bo))
<kode54>
goto err_vm_alloc;
<kode54>
which is causing it to try to vma_free while the bo is unlocked
<kode54>
okay, DRM_IOCTL_XE_VM_BIND is failing
<kode54>
oh how incredibly dumb, the error message printer doesn't include errno
<kode54>
that's another rebuild
Peuc has quit [Quit: Peuc]
<airlied>
just use strace to find the errno :-P
Peuc has joined #dri-devel
<kode54>
running it under strace makes strace crash
<kode54>
debug printf it is
smilessh has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
aravind has joined #dri-devel
heat_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<kode54>
oh good, dmesg has kernel printk's for this
<kode54>
XE_IOCTL_ERR(xe, !obj &&
<kode54>
VM_BIND_OP(op) == XE_VM_BIND_OP_MAP) ||
<kode54>
that's failing
heat has joined #dri-devel
<kode54>
so gem_handle is null
smiles_1111 has joined #dri-devel
aravind has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
aravind has joined #dri-devel
dcz has joined #dri-devel
kzd has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
dcz_ has joined #dri-devel
bgs has joined #dri-devel
dcz has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
djbw has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Company has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Company has joined #dri-devel
tzimmermann has joined #dri-devel
itoral has joined #dri-devel
jkrzyszt has joined #dri-devel
jkrzyszt has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
fab has joined #dri-devel
heat_ has joined #dri-devel
heat has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
heat_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
heat_ has joined #dri-devel
jkrzyszt has joined #dri-devel
<HdkR>
kode54: `DRM_IOCTL_XE_VM_BIND` was one of the ioctls where the struct was different between 32-bit and 64-bit
<HdkR>
If it hasn't been fixed in whatever kernel branch you're using
<HdkR>
`drm_xe_gem_create`, `drm_xe_vm_bind_op`, `drm_xe_exec`, `drm_xe_wait_user_fence`, and `drm_xe_vm_madvise` all were different.
i-garrison has quit []
i-garrison has joined #dri-devel
bgs has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<kode54>
how?
<kode54>
both the kernel and the mesa are using the same xe_drm.h
<kode54>
I'm using drm-xe-next from gitlab
<HdkR>
kode54: u64 members of structs have different alignments so you get holes when it does stuff like `u32 num_syncs; u64 range;`
<kode54>
oh, crap
<kode54>
is this already fixed in a branch somewhere?
danvet has joined #dri-devel
danvet has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
danvet has joined #dri-devel
<HdkR>
kode54: No idea. I've reported the issue, don't know if Intel peeps fixed it
<kode54>
where?
<kode54>
mailing list?
<HdkR>
here
<HdkR>
I don't do kernel development. No mailing list life for me
<kode54>
oh
<kode54>
I've made a patch against xe_drm.h
<kode54>
it inserts u16 and u32 padding members wherever there was non-64 bit alignment caused by interspersed u16 and u32 members
<kode54>
I also have a patch for the kernel that enables .compat_ioctl = drm_compat_ioctl, because that's needed for the generic DRM ioctls
<kode54>
the uAPI change needs to be patched against both the kernel and Mesa
<kode54>
I'll post them to the issue tracker
<kode54>
I see why people don't like to use managed git sites for forking the kernel
<kode54>
yeah, I've done a few minor kernel patches before
<kode54>
kind of a pain
<HdkR>
Indeed it is
thellstrom has joined #dri-devel
fab has quit [Quit: fab]
jfalempe has joined #dri-devel
frieder has joined #dri-devel
<kode54>
got it working
<kode54>
now pushing MRs for review
sghuge has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sghuge has joined #dri-devel
vliaskov has joined #dri-devel
heat has joined #dri-devel
heat_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<kode54>
so glad I have the patience to deal with crap like this
camus has quit []
camus has joined #dri-devel
ChaosPrincess has joined #dri-devel
fab has joined #dri-devel
thellstrom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<danvet>
melissawen, on the amd per-plane color management, personally I'm not fundamentally opposed to per-vendor at first if there's really no way to get this off the ground
<danvet>
but I do think we should try pretty hard first at something more agnostic
jaganteki has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<danvet>
plus I also think there's been plenty of interest for this in the past
<danvet>
vsyrjala, pq, emersion ^^ probably as starting point
<danvet>
pinchartl, ^^ not sure but iirc you looked at plane color props in the past too?
<danvet>
or wast that someone else
<danvet>
agd5f, ^^ (hwentland not around it seems)
<pinchartl>
danvet: not really. I think the rcar-du could do it, but we haven't looked at that
<danvet>
robclark, did cros look at per-plane color mgmt before then?
<danvet>
trying to make my brain work on Monday morning before coffee is ... hard
Guest11299 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
tursulin has joined #dri-devel
apinheiro has joined #dri-devel
heat has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
paulk has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0]
lynxeye has joined #dri-devel
greenjustin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dtmrzgl has quit []
dtmrzgl has joined #dri-devel
pcercuei has joined #dri-devel
rasterman has joined #dri-devel
kts has joined #dri-devel
kts has quit []
Dr_Who has joined #dri-devel
tobiasjakobi has joined #dri-devel
tobiasjakobi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thellstrom has joined #dri-devel
<dolphin>
sound-upstream seems to take forever in dim...
lynxeye has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
lynxeye has joined #dri-devel
penguin42 has joined #dri-devel
aravind has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
aravind has joined #dri-devel
aknautiy has quit [Quit: leaving]
Dr_Who has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
alatiera has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
aravind has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
aravind has joined #dri-devel
<mupuf>
dolphin: that;'s because the entire kernel.org infra is mostly-down
<kolera83>
https://forum.lvgl.io/t/stm32f7-disc-hard-fault-on-every-example/7497 , I think making a board micropython binary with mpy-cross, then call host's python mpremote.py blabla would indeed work, but somewhere i read that asl is nowdays equipped to all hardware not sure if that is true, but then it would make sense to compile to use that interpreter , i.e ask for acpi cpuid , and compile the code on the fly like the default is repl, but
<kolera83>
fairly little issue overall. Me i am yeah backing off from development , not sure if guys like penguin42 are like my doctor total veggies without taking meds which is outrageous, it's humiliation to me, that such carrots and i do not want to even insult carrots, are really actually terrorizing me.
stuarts has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
it really is such a shame on me.
Haaninjo has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
I mean put yourself into my shoes, i am forced to take meds to ruin my own life and health, you are already 25 years with med staff and alien scientists promoting entire tyranny against me, everywhere i go, guy thanks people for banning me, and it's only thing he does
<kolera83>
advertising and promoting abuse to a random person
<zmike>
moooooooooooooooooooods
<kolera83>
i mean look at this ape, what he does, not a single conversation again on my tail when i go have a vaccation, and its a god summer, i am done with code, man if you start all over again
<kolera83>
i pulled enough work, i want to get some freedom too
fab has quit [Quit: fab]
khfeng has joined #dri-devel
kzd has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
the state is the best we have ever had if to avoid such people and such promotion of terror against totally innocent people, who push hard with mentals to capture sanity for himself, i mena things are good, why you nasty?
<kolera83>
maybe you have troubles, but i do not want to see you in my territory harassing me again, or things go very bad i can tell, i warned several times
<kolera83>
if you have some trouble, than talk
<kolera83>
like a human
aravind has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
I graduated yeah already now, it took some doing, do not harass me, talking how functional people you are, you are pranks to me
<kolera83>
cheers.
kolera83 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<pinchartl>
several years ago I would have wondered if this was a bot. nowadays we seem to have reversed the turing test: you can differentiate some humans from machines by how incoherent the humans are
<bl4ckb0ne>
"i do not want to even insult carrots, they are actually terrorizing me"
aravind has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
aravind has joined #dri-devel
<tzimmermann>
ask any 3-yrs old about cooked vegetables. they will agree
fab has joined #dri-devel
<javierm>
cooked or raw
Duke`` has joined #dri-devel
<tzimmermann>
both, i guess :)
<javierm>
yeah :)
kolera83 has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
pinchartl: you are garbage stop chasing me and talking about me, do your porn with other garbage bags without single sane thought nor acheivement, you are thrash to me, you do not want to appear around me, i said one more time for estonian lampleg or jack or charl or any of your fuckers to stalk me, i kill them
<kolera83>
cause my father owns that hotel on the island
<kolera83>
and i have enough friends to kill them
<kolera83>
you are malfunctioning parrot to me, i do not care about your coherency
<kolera83>
get lost take your buggs bunnies away from my areas giving me lessons about gangsters or wankers
<kolera83>
we will promptly kill them off, cause i counted over 20 or more assaults at me
<kolera83>
i let others to know that such bad jokes stalk me
<kolera83>
and assaulted behind the back talking entire nonsense
<kolera83>
everyone is fine with the kill off , scum you are
<psykose>
take ur meds
<kolera83>
psykose: shut your mouth abortion leftover
<psykose>
i wish i was aborted
<kolera83>
get lost from my territory
<kolera83>
take your bugs bunny simon and shit with you
<kolera83>
i know, but harassing me is not allowed
<kolera83>
that is not my problem that you have unstable moods
<kolera83>
i sat 2years in mental insitution cause someone terrorised me, and blew up the domededov airport
<kolera83>
you know what shit i have been through or what?
<bl4ckb0ne>
are you the one bloke who's missing part of his skull/brain?
<pinchartl>
bl4ckb0ne: the best strategy is to not engage. /ignore is your friend
<bl4ckb0ne>
yeah, just being curious there
<bl4ckb0ne>
ive seen this kind of rants in multiple chans and i wonder if its the same person behind
<kolera83>
yet i do not stalk people, i do not act improperly , take your gangster shit out of my territory
<kolera83>
and sluts needing for gangsters along with you
<kolera83>
i've been forced to clear too many murders and in that shit for long
heat has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
i do not stop being nice, cause i am a nice and sane person, cause some slut requests people to be gangsters and bad boys
<kolera83>
find another tank driver i say, i know what those mud brainless crews are doing anyways
<kolera83>
you are not accountable humans, when you open your mouth it's clear that you should not be talking to my dad, cause he might be smaller, but his brain is hell of a more capable one
<kolera83>
and hence you lose there too for sure, and you lose period, do not drag me into this
<kolera83>
me i put no limits to your porn outside of my areas at all, bang your retarded slut how much you want, me i signed not up with her, retarded human
clem_ has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
all my friends despise your words, and terror
<kolera83>
you are not ok people
markco has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
And my therapist is not a doctor, she is a scammer, she looks like a pigonoid, and makes never any sense, she wants to munch chicken, and but does not want to do any work
<kolera83>
like what do you expect from such person, miracles?
<kolera83>
they do not happen
<kolera83>
i just hoped that you can find some enjoyment from programming and theories and science
<kolera83>
which would calm you down or give some satisfaction
<kolera83>
obviously you do not feel like it, and only keep thinking your porn is really my problem
<kolera83>
or your sexual issues with pretty retarded women indeed
<kolera83>
me i get calmer when i see, science being the topest during my lifeline
<kolera83>
it's at the highest peak
<kolera83>
3d metal printers, bioprinters, such chips, all science figured out
<kolera83>
but this is not enough for you , i do not know what you search from the world
<kolera83>
only to despise and disguise and complain and ban and actions like conflicts
<kolera83>
i do not understand such behavior, but everyone says it is my fault
<kolera83>
but i disagree, i do not want to understand such people
<kolera83>
and that record as linux was broken too, linux used to be pain in the ass
<kolera83>
but now it's not, everything is skyrocketed package management are accurate
<kolera83>
such lovely experience
<kolera83>
it's that i do not care if vulkan is not too modern api to me
MajorBiscuit has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<kolera83>
overall everything has been made available, and people think different
<kolera83>
my work was to offer alternative to those who need
<kolera83>
it was my duty
<kolera83>
i do not say that h265 is so bad either
<kolera83>
same wise mono and digilentengine and all 3d engines, it's not bad work you know
<kolera83>
what i considered my work was, everyone who want to get more modernized ways
<kolera83>
that this option would be available without me interference
<kolera83>
cause you hate me as i see!
<kolera83>
i am graduated in that terms i do not have those tasks anymore
Zopolis4_ has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
i need to switch to new work, cause those things are done perfectly
<kolera83>
Or do you at all understand what divine actually does in it's mstring implementation?
lanodan has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<kolera83>
i am deeply happy that czechs did that job, exactly the same as the best solution is
<kolera83>
i had exactly the same algorithm
<kolera83>
ANd i know, it is the very best, and so do they
lanodan has joined #dri-devel
<kolera83>
stop being such a dicks, i will exactly explain what they do instead...
<kolera83>
it's completely amazing compiler, just one hundred percent exactly like i visioned
<kolera83>
uart is very simple protocol
<kolera83>
but divine is indeed paradise wizdom
kolera83 has quit []
anarsoul has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
tursulin has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<gfxstrand>
Does anyone know what bit of spec text requires that flag be applied at vec4 granularity
<gfxstrand>
i.e., why I can't have a flat vec2 and a non-flat vec2 sharing the same slot?
<gfxstrand>
The Intel compiler assumes this but I can't find spec text
<gfxstrand>
Intel hardware seems to assume this as well
<gfxstrand>
Kayden, maybe?
<danylo>
gfxstrand: I think "Component aliasing" covers this
frieder has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<danylo>
glsl spec has "Further, when location aliasing, the aliases sharing the location must have the same underlying numerical type and bit width and the same auxiliary storage and interpolation qualification."
<gfxstrand>
danylo: Yup. Found it! Thanks.
anarsoul has joined #dri-devel
bmodem has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
lanodan_ has joined #dri-devel
lanodan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
aravind has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<kisak>
bl4ckb0ne: even if you're curious, the problem is that any reaction completing the communication loop is incentive to continue this unchecked behavior.
<kisak>
I've had my wrists slapped for the same curiousity.
Jeremy_Rand_Talos_ has joined #dri-devel
<soreau>
now they're on #radeon
JohnnyonFlame has joined #dri-devel
<penguin42>
they're doing their part in making AIs look smarter than humanity
tzimmermann has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Jeremy_Rand_Talos has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
dviola has joined #dri-devel
<ccr>
I suspect it's the same person who plagued this and many other FLOSS channels back in Freenode. all the signs point to it, e.g. vague/possible Estonian origin, using VPNs or TOR exit nodes for new hosts/accounts etc.
<bl4ckb0ne>
yuo, thats what i thought
<bl4ckb0ne>
might not be linked to the one i thought about in #alpine-devel
mattrope has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
lanodan has joined #dri-devel
jkrzyszt has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
lanodan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
lanodan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
lanodan has joined #dri-devel
mattrope has joined #dri-devel
gouchi has joined #dri-devel
MajorBiscuit has joined #dri-devel
heat_ has joined #dri-devel
heat has quit [Read error: No route to host]
iive has joined #dri-devel
MajorBiscuit has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
agd5f_ has joined #dri-devel
agd5f has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
agd5f has joined #dri-devel
agd5f_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jhli has joined #dri-devel
<kchibisov>
Is there some way to have printf or debug values in glsl shaders with mesa? I know that Vulkan has extensions for that.
<kchibisov>
Using software rendering and patching mesa is also fine.
* penguin42
tends just to add an extra array parameter to the shader
<kchibisov>
I want to debug something I'm computing in shader.
<anholt>
kchibisov: renderdoc is what I see people use for that. Or, in llvm, there's lp_debug_dump_value if you want to instrument the backend compiler.
<anholt>
llvmpipe/lavapipe, I mean
<jenatali>
What's the current upper bound target for CI jobs? I'm increasing coverage for dzn but want to make sure I stay well under that limit since the Windows runner speeds seem to fluctuate so much
<kchibisov>
anholt: is the LLVM stuff documented somewhere, I have more experience with it than with renderdoc?
<anholt>
That function name is the information, you just call it afaik.
<Kayden>
there's nir_lower_printf in rusticl, clover, and microsoft clc, and some GLSL extensions for it IIRC, someone could possibly wire it up
<kchibisov>
I know that there's a GL_EXT_debug_printf.
smiles_1111 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<tjaalton>
why is git.fd.o so slow? gives ~11 KiB/s here
<daniels>
tjaalton: some kind of weird network issue - machine is unloaded and NFS is fine because a local clone of mesa succeeds in milliseconds
<tjaalton>
ah ok
<tjaalton>
well, I'll let it fetch overnight ;)
digetx is now known as Guest12055
digetx has joined #dri-devel
Guest12055 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
orbea has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
chipxxx has joined #dri-devel
Kayden has quit [Quit: -> JF]
djbw has joined #dri-devel
heat has joined #dri-devel
heat_ has quit [Read error: No route to host]
JohnnyonFlame has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
JohnnyonFlame has joined #dri-devel
<jenatali>
At what point do I get to remove "-experimental" from dzn's meson enable flag?
* zmike
shakes magic 8 ball
<zmike>
ask again later
* kisak
recommends when passing baseline conformance