marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
<bmrgz[m]>
Which device tree is recommended for j274? Using the dtb from AsahiLinux-PKGBUILD u-boot can't access the nvme drive but Linux can, and with a dtb from the u-boot build both u-boot and grub can access nvme but Linux cannot.
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<Glanzmann>
bmrgz[m]: I think the main problem is that uboot+grub does not deinitailize nvme, but linux needs nvme deinitialized, but OpenBSD needs it initialized. So noone knows if nvme can be deinitialized and sven has to think about if he wants to change the nvme driver on Linux to work also with a initialized nvme controller.
<bmrgz[m]>
The u-boot one doesn't work when I boot Linux directly with a payload either though.
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<Glanzmann>
bmrgz[m]: Yes, if I understood correctly, u-boot initialized nvme. Linux does not work with a pre-initialized NVMe, while OpenBSD requires it. That is the problem.
<marcan>
(this is why I keep saying this isn't ready for end-users; there is literally no source tree right now that will give you a proper self-contained boot with u-boot+grub)
<marcan>
the fix is simple but if you insist on trying right now, you really shouldn't expect things to work
<marcan>
we'll get to this soon
<mps>
aha, now I understand why I can't make m1n1+u-boot+grub to boot from nvme
marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | Not ready for end users / self contained install yet. Soon. | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
<Glanzmann>
But wifi first. Once we have wifi, we can do NVMe-o-TCP.
<Glanzmann>
c
<mps>
and fixing audio
<mps>
Glanzmann: does audio driver works on your machine
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<Glanzmann>
mps: Not really. I tried it once. I was able to let it make a noice. But it is currently not ready for pulseaudio (this is what I use). So at the moment I'm using a USB sound card.
<Glanzmann>
s/noice/noise/g
<mps>
hmm, on my machine it is not even registered, got these in dmesg out ' apple-pmgr-pwrstate 23b700000.power-management:power-controller@2c0: PS mca1: Failed to reach power state 0xf (now: 0x24f)'
<dottedmag>
mps: nvme-over-ultrasound? needs mic too then
<mps>
dottedmag: isn't 'mca' something in audio driver? or I was wrong
<dottedmag>
mps: I was referring to Glanzmann's joke about nvme-over-tcp
<mps>
ah, ok
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<marcan>
mps: what machine?
<mps>
marcan: mbp j293 model
<marcan>
haven't tested on that one yet, but that sounds like a pmgr tree issue
<mps>
message indicate something in pmgr
<marcan>
can you run tools/dump_pmgr.py on m1n1 and paste the output?
<marcan>
either way, the only thing that might work on that model is the headphones out, the speakers definitely aren't instantiated yet
<mps>
marcan: is it possible to dump this on machine directly?
<marcan>
no
<j`ey>
marcan: I forgot, did you get it working on the t6000 that you tried on?
<marcan>
(what did I say about targeting developers doing tethered boot... sigh.)
<mps>
ok, will try later then
<marcan>
j`ey: no, it has a new undocumented codec with no public equivalent
<j`ey>
oh no, there was no codec driver for this, I remember ^^
<marcan>
the thing is, debugging this kind of stuff is easy if you have a m1n1 setup and are familiar with booting that way and you can try kernels out
<marcan>
otherwise, it's just a waste of time, I'd rather test it myself when I get there and fix it then
<mps>
well, I don't have development/debug 'laboratory' setup and it is complicated to set all these in my work environment
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<mps>
not impossible though
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<marcan>
doing this at work?
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<mps>
yes
<mps>
(I'm on $day_job now)
<marcan>
hope your employer is okay with working on this :p
<mps>
heh
<mps>
(my employer is actually my son, but psssst :) )
<marcan>
heh
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<marcan>
HA
<marcan>
so apple broke kmutil in 12.1 for us, by requiring $something from the mach-o we don't know yet
<j`ey>
waddup?
<marcan>
but they *also* added a --raw option
<j`ey>
ooh
<marcan>
which along with --entry-point and --lowest-virtual-address, lets you load a raw blob, not a mach-o
<marcan>
... maybe we should switch to that
<j`ey>
but the Macho linkerscript was so cool!
<marcan>
:)
<marcan>
plus I already assume all that for chainloading anyway, heh
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<marcan>
but I'm going to take this as a "use this, this will never break" message...
<marcan>
(and people said apple wouldn't help... I can't think of how this could possibly *not* be intended for us)
<dottedmag>
There ought to be "Merry Christmas, marcan" string in kmutil binary next to implementation of --raw
<marcan>
only problem is the mach-o isn't contiguous for us; the payload skips bss, so if we do it this way we'll have to add a huge chunk of bss padding which isn't great
<j`ey>
I think it's worth looking into what the boot properties thing is
<marcan>
yeah
<marcan>
if I were to use this, I'd just add some bootstrap code to move the payload over to skip bss, though that might slow things down a bit with large payloads
<marcan>
I wonder how the --raw option works though
<marcan>
will it just make a mach-o for us?
<marcan>
ok, I think the __info section is what we need
<sven>
Now if they’d also only unlock that DCP DART for my Christmas present:D
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<marcan>
well the raw thing works, though you need to pass the addresses in decimal for some inexplicable reason
<Glanzmann>
marcan: Can m1n1 not zero out bss segments by itself?
<j`ey>
it does, but the --raw option needs a binary actually filled with zeros
<Glanzmann>
Btw. NightRaven[tm] reported this issue yesterday because he was unable to bless m1n1.macho after upgrading macos.
<j`ey>
which would make it big for no reason
<Glanzmann>
j`ey: I see. Good that we have a NVMe to store it on.
<marcan>
there's a compression mode, so we can use that if we must
<marcan>
but I'm more tempted to just memmove the payload off of bss in the startup code
<Glanzmann>
I see.
<marcan>
ah, but then that'd clobber some stuff that gets placed after that... hmm
<marcan>
we have 4MB or so of BSS right now, which isn't great
<marcan>
but it's not terrible either, given the compression. might just roll with the padding.
<marcan>
it's mostly secondary_stacks; we can probably move that to dynamic allocation
<marcan>
which makes sense anyway given the variable CPU count
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<as400>
marcan: maybe Apple wants to support "foreign" operating systems by themselves ?
<marcan>
this is a developer tool
<j`ey>
if they did, they'd be using linux mainline :p
<as400>
they'd be using Asahi Linux :P
<as400>
and employ marcan
<j`ey>
no that'd be terrible, no more open source!
<chadmed>
imagine the phonebook of an NDA lmao
<chadmed>
theyre not even allowed to tell people from the same department what theyre working on, its amazing that anything even gets done at all at apple
<as400>
yeah - I've heard about that
<Glanzmann>
~.
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<marcan>
heh, interesting, it doesn't actually build a mach-o, instead it sticks the load addr and entrypoint into img4 tags
<marcan>
that means iBoot learned to boot raw images
<chadmed>
it would be interesting to know whether they did this for us or for microsoft
<chadmed>
having proper windows support via bootcamp or something would shift a lot more machines, but they cant even keep up with current demand. lead times on all the machines are 4+ weeks, and theyre out of stock at every apple store within 1000km of me
<as400>
Well, there is ARM Windows version, right ?
<j`ey>
as400: it wont work on m1 natively
<as400>
j`ey: MS has the manpower to make it viable option. Question is - do they want it ?
<as400>
Actually I stopped understanding big corpos long time ago. So I can't even answer this question for myself.
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<chadmed>
as400: theyd need NT drivers for all the hardware for it to actually boot and work properly. they could put this work in if they wanted to, and they really should since their own hw is crap and windows is going to be left behind if they hitch their cart exclusively to amd64
<chadmed>
that said, i can imagine them holding off on it out of pure spite. im sure they have working builds internally though
<as400>
They have this ARM based SQ-something SOC, right ? Is it also crap ?
<mini>
I've used one of their ARM surfaces, it's not a nice experience. it's sluggish.
<chadmed>
probably not. i didnt mean the actual underlying chips but more the finished product. the surface book is a crap imitation of the macbook and the arm surface tablet things are ghoulish
<chadmed>
it actually astounds me that with the incomprehensible financial power of ms, intel, amd, nvidia and all their PC OEM partners they _still_ cant produce anything that comes close to a macbook in terms of UX quality
<as400>
I've heard Qualcomm making bold claims about producing high-end pc soc lately.
<marcan>
chadmed: this is a developer tool. none of this would be used for a hypothetical official windows port.
<as400>
marcan: any idea why they added this ? Just as a devtool ?
<marcan>
kmutil has always been a developer tool
<chadmed>
i would expect them to be able to do it. its never been a matter of high performance arm chips being unviable, its just that no ones been keen on testing the market for them. apple were in a unique position to be able to do so by controlling the hardware and software. the PC ecosystem is too much of a hodgepodge for such disruptive changes to happen like the M1 introduction
<marcan>
it having --raw mode seems squarely aimed at us
<as400>
marcan: if you're right then it's kind of shocking
<marcan>
it really isn't
<marcan>
they also enabled self-signed binaries in recovery mode after launch
<chadmed>
the PC software ecosystem is in fact inexorably linked with the PC hardware platform, but because no one entity controls either its extremely difficult for anything to happen other than iterative changes because you would break 30 years of mostly unbroken backwards compatibility and paradigm
<marcan>
which is required for our installer to work
<marcan>
I don't know why people have this idea of Apple as the big evil behemoth we have to fight
<mini>
their WWDC announces pre-launch even said they were going to support booting custom kernels etc (they framed it as for security research etc, but...)
<marcan>
they opened up the platform, why wouldn't they have the tiniest bit of courtesy and add a couple features that cost them ~nothing on top and make our lives easier?
<chadmed>
as400: its not shocking. we've known for a while the engineers back of house want to see this succeed, and it doesnt actively get in the way of any plans the bean counters might have for normal users so they have no reason to block such feature enablement
<as400>
marcan: I don't think Apple is evil. I just thought that they are completely ignoring existence of such geeks.
<marcan>
management? maybe
<marcan>
the engineers working on stuff? no
<marcan>
they show up to my youtube streams sometimes
<marcan>
I'm sure some are in here :p
<chadmed>
what would be shocking is if the bean counters let engineering give us their internal documentation on AGX or something like that
<mps>
engineers are more open to communities than managers in any company
<mps>
s/any/many/
<as400>
Well if that's all true then - thank you Apple engineers :)
<mini>
plus, seeing the enthusiasm for the hardware they've worked on from a wider community can't hurt :)
<mps>
in 199x I had comunications with MS engineers, they were 'fine' people what I can't say for their managers
<as400>
mini: yes, absolutely. What about seeing bunch of Linux geeks on FSF event walking with macbooks in their hands :) That would be also satisfaction for them I guess.
<chadmed>
some of them could not document code to save their lives though. what little documentation exists in the NT5.3 branch is a mess of broken english and cryptic hungarian notation parameter names next to windows.h types
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<marcan>
I wonder if this broke kmutil for 11.x; for those iBoot wouldn't understand a non-macho, but you'd be using SFR kmutil
<marcan>
either way, I'm likely going to make 12.1 the minimum version soon enough, and this new feature is a good excuse to do that
<marcan>
... just need to do something about video on the Mac Mini
<marcan>
that should work with payloads; it includes all .bss, but I removed a lot of bloat
<marcan>
-rw-r--r-- 1 marcan marcan 753664 Dec 17 21:43 m1n1.bin
<marcan>
-rw-r--r-- 1 marcan marcan 589824 Dec 17 21:43 m1n1.macho
<marcan>
not that big a change
<FireFox317>
marcan, the m1n1.macho path just doesnt work at all in >=12.1?
<marcan>
the macho file needs some extra stuff we don't know about
<marcan>
but also I wouldn't be surprised if the new way of doing things broke the payload concatenation trick
<FireFox317>
ahhh, and the devs thought why dont we just add a simpler way to boot for the asahi ppl xd
<marcan>
it seems they parse the macho in kmutil now and iBoot just does something simpler
<Glanzmann>
marcan: Does the installer already install the most Macos version or do we have to use a traditional macos installation in order to test that? Does it support payloads on the binaries? Is it ready for junior developers?
<marcan>
but the payload thing always relied on abusing the format and having a section hang "off the end"
<marcan>
it also caused us to have a maximum payload size
<marcan>
the .bin path does not have that problem
<marcan>
and also wastes less RAM in principle
<marcan>
Glanzmann: 12.1 is not in the installer yet
<marcan>
I probably won't add it until I make video work
<marcan>
and then I probably will deprecate <12.1 :p
<j`ey>
marcan: oh nice, thats a lot less than 4mb :)
<j`ey>
and no need to memmove the payload
<marcan>
that wouldn't work anyway
<marcan>
since iBoot puts stuff after the payload
<j`ey>
oh
<Glanzmann>
marcan: Have you decided on how to move the firmware for wifi to linux?
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<marcan>
mostly, in my head
<Glanzmann>
marcan: Tell us already.
<marcan>
I'd rather just implement it :p
<Glanzmann>
Okay, than I run git pull every other hour.
<j`ey>
lol
<Glanzmann>
marcan: Go ahead, so that you don't get sidetracked with implementing the gpu kernel driver first
<j`ey>
marcan: the new .ld has _max_payload_size still
<marcan>
ah, actually, we still need that
<marcan>
since the heap starts after that
<marcan>
well, only in chainload mode
<marcan>
I should figure something out for that...
<j`ey>
cant it just start aftr _payload_end?
<j`ey>
oh no, I see
<j`ey>
the linker script doesn't know about the payloads, so it needs *some* value for _payload_end
<marcan>
j`ey: that was dead logic anyway, removed
<marcan>
only issue now is non- --xnu chainloads will always clobber the SEPFW and friends, but well, you should use --xnu for that anyway
<marcan>
so I just made --xnu the default, and that's that
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<imakestuff>
looks like there is some work left to go
<imakestuff>
oh okay
<j`ey>
but yes, some work left
<j`ey>
quite a lot left!
<imakestuff>
my intention is to use an M1 Mini as Ubuntu server... how long do you expect for Asahi to get there?
<j`ey>
it would be quite a long time before you can just take a ubuntu .iso and use it
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<imakestu_>
j`ey: what is possible to try out right now?
<j`ey>
imakestu_: well most things on the mini are in a roughly working order, but you have to build a kernel and rootfs yourself
<marcan>
and there is no acceptable standalone boot chain right now
<mini>
if you're not happy to go from what is basically on the wiki and work it out yourself, it's not really in a state where it's ready right now
<imakestu_>
aha looks like Wifi is the missing piece for it to be good for a server
<imakestu_>
i think
<marcan>
imakestu_: come back in a few weeks :p
<j`ey>
imakestu_: surely a server would use ethernet?
<imakestu_>
marcan: sure. went to your website... looks like the project side bar needs update ;)
<marcan>
eh, the whole website needs an update
<marcan>
maybe some day :p
<imakestu_>
j`ey: yeah.. i see on the page you shared me that it's there on the Mini
<imakestu_>
j`ey: 5.16
<j`ey>
imakestu_: yeah, eth works
<imakestu_>
marcan: what i found works for me is just do one thing now that will take you 10 mins and add as you go... "one day" is a mirage
<marcan>
things blocking a release that's "usable enough" on the mini right now would be: cpufreq, wifi, the u-boot nvme stuff, installer work, and doing something about the iBoot framebuffer on 12.1
<imakestu_>
thanks
<ChaosPrincess>
whats up with iboot framebuffer on 12.1?
<marcan>
they broke it on the mac mini
<j`ey>
ask apple :P
<marcan>
ever since 12.0
<ChaosPrincess>
welp
<imakestu_>
BTW i live in a place where power is not reliable and was planning to get M1 Mini to use as server? shall i expect reasonable performance in a VM?
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<j`ey>
I dont understand the question really
<j`ey>
you mean a Linux VM under macOS?
<imakestu_>
yeah
<imakestu_>
i have backend stuff best served via linux
<j`ey>
yes you can get good perf in a VM
<imakestu_>
and like the power efficiency of the M1
<imakestu_>
not sure if I should get Intel Mini or Arm
<ChaosPrincess>
i still havent managed to find a good enough solution for vms on arm macs that is not the integrated vm of docker desktop
<sven>
marcan: fwiw, the current nvme driver in asahi can kernel
<sven>
ugh
<sven>
^can kernel panic if a command fails or times out
<j`ey>
ChaosPrincess: qemu?
<mini>
the intel mini is a dead end at this point, you should only buy it if you absolutely need intel
<imakestu_>
ChaosPrincess: how do you use the VM of docker desktop?
<SamAdams[m]>
I'm experiencing an issue with m1n1. I'm on Mac OS 12.1 and ran kmutil with m1n1.bin. Does this mean that I just need to install the Linux kernel? I want to install fedora rawhide with the latest 5.16 kernel. When I reboot it keeps on coming up with this message.
<SamAdams[m]>
Sorry, I'm 19 years old and am very interested in this project.
<j`ey>
SamAdams[m]: there was just a recent change, in the last few hours to m1n1 for 12.1, make sure you're on the very latets
<SamAdams[m]>
Yep, I just cloned the GitHub repo (1 hour ago).
<j`ey>
SamAdams[m]: and you're using kmutil with the --raw flag, as the m1n1 README states?
<SamAdams[m]>
Yes.
<tpw_rules>
j`ey: so which one you need to use depends on the stub OS version?
<j`ey>
tpw_rules: yes
<tpw_rules>
out of curiosity, has 12.1 improved the hdmi support on the mini any or is it still dead
<j`ey>
still seems dead
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<SamAdams[m]>
Oh, I have Mac OS 12.1 recoveryOS and 11.6.1 Mac OS. So, I should upgrade my Mac OS to 12.1 and try again?
<SamAdams[m]>
I think I'm going to restart and reinstall Mac OS 12.1 and create the stub partitions.
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<marcan>
SamAdams[m]: there is no usable end-user install mechanism right now. unless you're a kernel developer you're better off waiting
<marcan>
and yes, if your recoveryOS is 12.1 and the partition you are installing to is 11.x, this is exactly the kind of failure I would expect to happen.
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<SamAdams[m]>
Interesting, so I restored using DFU to 11.6 and the recoveryOS was the older version compatible with the macho. I ran the software upgrade to 11.6.2 and it upgraded the recoveryOS to the latest version. So, if you upgrade your Mac at all, you will have to use the m1n1.bin file and be on 12.1 or higher.
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<tpw_rules>
that's a little worrying
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<sven>
the installer will take care of all those details
<sven>
and given that it’ll probably take a few more weeks at least we can just require >12.1
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<martinstewart_>
hello was just wondering if somebody would like to help me install linux on my m1 mac mini for tinkering sake
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<j`ey>
martinstewart_: its not user friendly, unless you have prior kernel building / related experience
<j`ey>
best to wait a bit longer, until theres a proper installer/bootloader
<martinstewart_>
how not user friendly are we talking we talking mkaefile stuff or is it full on kernel conpileing cus i have done abit of makefile with stuff llike boxx64 conpileing on a utm instance on my mac mini
<zimsneexh>
Is it still possible to load a .macho in the Hypervisor with the recent changes?
<j`ey>
kernel compiling, getting a rootfs
<j`ey>
zimsneexh: yeah
<martinstewart_>
hmm maby ill wait
<NightRaven[m]>
j`ey: Maybe a video tutorial for how to do it
<zimsneexh>
j`ey: oh, okay, that's good.
<j`ey>
NightRaven[m]: imo video makes no sense right now
<sven>
^-- that
<NightRaven[m]>
Hmm ok
<sven>
right now installing only makes sense for people who also want to contribute to kernel development essentially
<zimsneexh>
Agreed, It's not intended for end users at the moment, a video wouldn't be of much use
<martinstewart_>
im bored but im not that bored (bored enoguht to go insane over linux)
<j`ey>
I feel bad, cos obviously people are excited to try it out.. but it's not there and will just end up wasting peoples time
<zimsneexh>
It's quite impressive for how usable it is given there's no hardware GPU acceleration
<NightRaven[m]>
j`ey: I can see what you mean it's true
<martinstewart_>
thats the problem i got my mac mini because of this project knowing one day i could install linux on it
<j`ey>
zimsneexh: it works well.. just not easily :P
<martinstewart_>
if it was as simple as getting m1n1 installed useing anouther pc to load the pre built kernel config and distro rootfs install all the patches and have a happy linux box id be verry happy but sadly the linux enthusiest (me isnt really ready for it yet)
<martinstewart_>
cant be dealing with massive config files and hours of conpileing although i would only have to do it once due to me never turning my mac off unless it needs updates
<zimsneexh>
martinstewart_: if you're comfortable with configuring a kernel you can probably do it
<zimsneexh>
probably also doesn't take much longer than a few minutes to build
<martinstewart_>
am i correct in saying kernel config gui is exactly the same as the tasksel gui atleast from what i have seen
<martinstewart_>
navgation wise that is
<zimsneexh>
Not sure if tasksel is ncurses too, but I'm pretty sure?
<j`ey>
menuconfig is, yes
<mps>
martinstewart_: make menuconfig or make nconfig
<martinstewart_>
that could work
<martinstewart_>
i do have a spare 64gb usb drive laying around if thats of any use
<mps>
now I remember time when there was 'make xconfig'
<zimsneexh>
martinstewart_: would work as a rootfs, although usb drives are quite slow for that
<zimsneexh>
mps: still exists now i'm pretty sure
<mps>
zimsneexh: ssd on usb is not so bad though not as nvme ofc
<martinstewart_>
dose the internel ssd work yet?for putting the rootfs on
<mps>
martinstewart_: yes
<martinstewart_>
hnnn
<martinstewart_>
do i dare try it
<zimsneexh>
mps: It's quite okay but relatively slow even on fast Samsung SSDs thanks to USB2
<mps>
zimsneexh: yes, but good for testing
<martinstewart_>
cant be worse than installing cus i have a little more or less than 2 hours till i go to bed and i have nothing else to do
<j`ey>
its likely to take longer than 2h
<zimsneexh>
martinstewart_: There's a handy guide from Glanzmann that describes the process quite well, if you want to give it a shot
<martinstewart_>
9:24pm i have till 11
<mps>
zimsneexh: oh right, xconfig and gconfig are still there (I had impression they are removed long ago)
<martinstewart_>
if you think i have enough time go ahead send it over if not ill be on tomroww but earlier
<martinstewart_>
i do like to challange myself
<martinstewart_>
only one problem will m1n1 interface through windows since my only linux device has a dieing hard drive
<martinstewart_>
hmmmm wsl? that might work
<zimsneexh>
Maybe. No idea about wsl
<martinstewart_>
i do have anouther device but its one given to me by my educator and they said i can keep it aslong as i dont put linux on it (as soon as i leave im putting linux on it by the way)
<martinstewart_>
i could live boot it but then i risk breaking my windows install
<martinstewart_>
i think im going to have to leave this till tomorrow sadly but hopefully i can get something working
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<amarioguy>
hey is this working? can you all see this message? sorry new to irc so i'm not entirely sure how this works lmao
<kilrain[m]>
I can see it, but I'm not in IRC 😀
<amarioguy>
ah cool
<Method>
Can also see it, and am also not in irc
<sorear>
it’s working on the IRC side
<sorear>
you can also look at the “Logs:” link in the channel topic
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<matthewayers[m]>
Alright, I’m committing the rest of my evening to getting an Asahi dev environment up on my local machine.