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<Company>
Lynne: so, if you were to write a rendering library today that was meant to target as many backends as possible, what shader language would you go for?
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<Company>
I'm wondering about the best approach for GTK, before we actually start using shaders for much more than gl_FragColor = texture(tex, uv);
<Company>
and that's gonna happen this year most likely, with the HDR stuff and path rendering
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<HdkR>
Did 23.2 actually release? Wasn't paying attention and thought it was at the start of the month
<psykose>
nope
<HdkR>
I see
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<Lynne>
Company: glsl is here to stay and be extended
<Lynne>
glslang may be horrible, but who knows, maybe in the future someone will write a simple compiler that doesn't depend on glslang
<Lynne>
it's simpler than C, and you can write a simple C compiler in a thousand (very long) lines
<Lynne>
it doesn't even need to do any simplifications, optimizations, or register management
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<Company>
Lynne: but how do I get DirectX or Metal supported with it?
<Lynne>
ah, I didn't know that was a requirement
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<Lynne>
if the shaders are comparitively simple, I think you can get away without any extra deps by templating the common parts
<Lynne>
a = b + c; is valid in all 3 languages after all
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<Company>
Lynne: otoh HLSL is a nice language, too - and there are decent HLSL=>GLSL compilers, plus I can get SPIRV out of it
<Company>
which gives me Vulkan, GL and DirectX at least
<Company>
and then there's the gaming community which uses HLSL and has quite some open source tools available - though I didn't investigate them other than reading READMEs
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* alyssa
wonders why v3dv drm-shim isnt working
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<Lynne>
Company: sure, and libdxcompiler is a nicer library than glslang, I'm just of the opinion that if something isn't optimal, you make it optimal
<Lynne>
you don't get certain features in hlsl that you get in vulkanese glsl, like addresses, coop matrices and such, but to a gui toolkit, those are probably not of any interest
<Company>
I don't know - we're getting very close to state of the art with GTK4's rendering pipeline, because lots of other toolkits I used to take inspiration from are still stuck on the CPU
<Company>
and if we can invent a way to do layout and or styling on the GPU (which we want to do because it's slow and at least in theory it's parallelizable) then we're suddenly writing pretty complex code
<Company>
but how much of that is overlapping with ML stuff or audio/video I have no idea
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<Company>
the immediate concern is about the best way to do (reasonably old) GL, Vulkan, DX and Metal
<Company>
and neither GLSL nor HLSL nor SPIRV can do that and what people use is either a game engine's platform or some WebGL implementation like ANGLE
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<zmike>
sounds like you want workgraphs
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<Company>
"Announcing GPU Work Graphs in Vulkan®" - July 28, 2023
<Company>
that sounds very much like I can't look at many toolkits for inspiration
<Company>
but it's good to know that whatever DirectX comes up with has a Vulkan extension about a week later
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<Lynne>
I wish instead of pipelines they could've gone with shader objects
<Lynne>
for shader_enqueue
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<airlied>
yeah they dropped opencl because of so many low quality implmentations
<airlied>
maybe if i make some low quality cuda they might drop it
<glehmann>
Lynne: shader objects vs pipelines makes no difference for compute shaders
<HdkR>
airlied: Isn't that already HIP?
<airlied>
indeed
<airlied>
DavidHeidelberg[m]: did llama not work for you on tinygrad?
<airlied>
oh i just removed the array there i think
<airlied>
ah yes what the mr does
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<Lynne>
glehmann: yup, my point, there's no need for an extra indirection
<Lynne>
requiring users to create individual pipelines
<DavidHeidelberg[m]>
airlied: feel free to drop `Tested-by` :D
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<airlied>
DavidHeidelberg[m]: did you results from that benchmark?
<DavidHeidelberg[m]>
on my Intel XPS 9310: ;11.45 ms cpy, 6921.94 ms run, 94.26 ms build, 6827.63 ms realize, 0.04 ms CL, -0.00 loss, 421 tensors, 0.04 GB used, 0.00 GFLOPS;
<DavidHeidelberg[m]>
didn't ran on XT6800 yet
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<karolherbst>
airlied: any prototype on that function calling stuff for llvmpipe? once I've done wiht global prog vars there isn't much needed for general HIP/SyCL besides SVM (pain) and subgroups (should probably merge it)
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<airlied>
karolherbst: oh the branch I have it in is a bit of a hackfest branch, I might clean it up and pull just the fn work out
<airlied>
the hacky one is my llvmpipe-cl-funcs branch
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<JoshuaAshton>
Lynne: Shader objects or pipelines there is no extra indirection here.
<JoshuaAshton>
Shader objects != shader modules
<JoshuaAshton>
You have to make a shader object or a pipeline
<JoshuaAshton>
eso is a meme anyway
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