ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<pq>
bwidawsk, Weston's test suite is robust? In what way?
<emersion>
i find weston to be higher quality code in general when compared to other compositors
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<pq>
I'm just curious what people consider good in the test suite.
<DemiMarie>
emersion: does that include wlroots and sway?
<MrCooper>
emersion: yeah, not really seeing the point of that; the client cannot reuse the buffer before it has received all release events anyway, which corresponds to when it receives the old release event
<bwidawsk>
pq: What do you mean by "protocol interface" here?
<pq>
a literal protocol interface: requests and events
<pq>
e.g. there is currently zero coverage to anything related to xdg-shell
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<bwidawsk>
pq: hmm, that's unfortunate
<marler8997>
I'm trying to figure out why screen capture via X11 SHM doesn't seem to be working on XWayland. All the functions seem to work (no errors reported) but the SHM is never populated (always just zeros).
<marler8997>
I was seeing this in my app, but this StackOverflow answer has a small self-contained program that demonstrates the issue: https://stackoverflow.com/a/38319485/2561425
<ofourdan>
marler8997: when using Xwayland rootless, the root window has no storage. Try the same using Xwayland rootfull
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<bwidawsk>
pq: off the top of your head, what major pieces are missing that you'd like to see added?
<marler8997>
ofourdan thanks alot! I'll read a bit more but sounds like that might be the issue
<pq>
bwidawsk, all supported protocol extensions that are not yet tested. Everything DRM KMS like hotplug, link failures, and MST. Lots about input I guess.
<marler8997>
ofourdan is there a way to ask Xwayland what mode it is running in at runtime?
<i509VCB>
Part of why wayland is odd to test is that it's not just messages in messages out, but there are also semantics that need to be tested
<pq>
bwidawsk, I do think a shared test suite for testing protocol/extension behavior would be good, and then improve coverage with compositors' own test suites.
<pq>
WLCS has been talked about, but ISTR I'm still waiting for a MR to integrate that in Weston.
<ofourdan>
you could check whether Xwayland was started with "-rootless" - Xwayland is spawned by the Wayland compositor in rootless mode (for seamless integration of X11 windows with the rest of Wayland native apps)
<bwidawsk>
pq: so you don't share the sentiments of daniels wrt WLCS?
<marler8997>
ofourdan yeah I can see "--rootless" was given to the process. But what I'm thinking is if I want my app to capture the screen, it would need a way to detect whether the xserver it connected to is rootless or rootfull
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<marler8997>
It could be in a container, may not have access to the same proc namespace
<ofourdan>
bottom line is, for an app to capture the screen in Wayland, X11 is not the right approach :)
<marler8997>
right, but how do you detect that?
<pq>
bwidawsk, I would require all code added into Weston repository to be under the Weston license which is MIT.
<ofourdan>
something like xisxwayland can tell taht the X11 server is Xwayland, in which case, better off using some other mechanism to capture the screen
<pq>
bwidawsk, I also have never really looked at WLCS.
<i509VCB>
So a shared testing suite would need to be licensed flexibly enough or auxiliary to the main weston repo
<jadahl>
the license of the test suite being gpl or mit like doesn't seem relevant as long as the code that integrates it into weston has the same license as the rest of weston
<pq>
i509VCB, I'd think a shared test suite is by definition auxiliary to Weston.
<bwidawsk>
I see some similarity with IGT here actually
<i509VCB>
Okay maybe bad wording, a layer above Weston more likely
<i509VCB>
Vs in Weston integration
<bwidawsk>
I'm not sure I agree the license isn't relevant. While I personally don't consider WLCS to be hostile, since I don't really care, it's likely that once merged into Weston, that weston devs will want to modify or improve WLCS
<pq>
For a shared test suite to have power it needs per-compositor integration for things like faking input, capturing output, and likely also directly affecting or at least inspecting the window management.
<bwidawsk>
and that maybe doesn't become a posibility
<bwidawsk>
so my $.02 is, if the consensus of the weston community is that the wlcs licensing is hostile, it doesn't make much sense to merge support in thisi imaginary PR
<marler8997>
ofourdan what are the capture methods for wayland by the way? Pipewire?
<emersion>
just because Weston is MIT, doesn't mean the developers can't write any GPL code
<kennylevinsen>
If such test suite is meant to be shared, there is no reason to merge it into the Weston repo so license compatibility doesn't matter and contribution can still occur. But yeah, no CLAs please.
<kennylevinsen>
marler8997: compositor specific with most compositor a having pipewire integration through versions of xdg-desktop-portal
<bwidawsk>
emersion: nobody said can't, but I think there's an overall aversion
<bwidawsk>
the CLA was me reciting from memory, perhaps faulty
<marler8997>
kennylevinsen thanks for the succinct answer!
<emersion>
i don't have an aversion, quite the contrary, fwiw
<ofourdan>
marler8997: I think the recommended way is to use the desktop portal APIs, see the ScreenCast and RemoteDesktop APIs in https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/#idm28 - And these indeed use PipeWire
<daniels>
bwidawsk, pq, emersion: eh, it's not actively hostile per se since the CLA requirement got removed; my main objection to it is that it's GPLv3 which is quite problematic for a number of people who, for better or worse, make sure they don't have any of it anywhere near their build/dev chain, let alone shipping systems
<daniels>
if it was GPLv2 that would be a lot easier, but I'd be infinitely happier if it was MIT since we could more easily share code
<i509VCB>
I'm curious if anyone here has a demand for a client testing suite. Something akin to putting clients in scenarios to test for correct responses
<emersion>
daniels: oh so there was a CLA before? glad it's removed at least…
<bwidawsk>
For me professionally (ie. my employer) it does add extra hoops if it's GPL*
<daniels>
istr there was and now there is not
<bwidawsk>
Personally, I care little
<daniels>
(fwiw the wlcs developers have never been hostile, just as the mir developers aren't/weren't, just the licensing terms are uncomfortably asymmetrical wrt the rest of the ecosystem)
<emersion>
are you that scared of GPL?
<daniels>
no
<daniels>
my personal preference on licensing is GPLv2
<pq>
i509VCB, I think that is mostly built-in to the compositors already in the form of protocol errors defined by the extension specs.
<daniels>
but, I mean, the rest of the ecosystem around it - Weston, wlroots, Mesa, etc - are all MIT, and I do think there is benefit in that homogeneity
<emersion>
the kernel is GPL
<emersion>
make sure to yeet that from your dev machine!
<daniels>
sigh
<emersion>
if wlroots was started today, maybe it would've been GPL
<daniels>
that's not what I said. in fact, when I said 'my personal preference on licensing is GPLv2', that's the opposite of that
<emersion>
i was replying to "a number of people who, for better or worse, make sure they don't have any of it anywhere near their build/dev chain"
<daniels>
that's, very specifically, GPLv3
<emersion>
ah, what is the difference between v2 and v3?
<daniels>
quite a bit ... again on asymmetry, part of the issue with GPLv3 is that it's one-way wrt v2, so v3 projects are necessarily a little bit more of an island because of that
* bwidawsk
backs away slowly
<emersion>
right, but what makes it more hostile than v2?
<marler8997>
* richard stallman has entered the chat
<emersion>
why are you concerned about your dev env being polluted by v3 but not v2?
<daniels>
not my _personal_ development environment; my laptop contains modern gcc and bash and whatever, so that's already there
<marler8997>
I know tivoization is a big one for alot of people
<emersion>
ah, so you mean, CI for instance?
<i509VCB>
pq: Sure, but I've seen a compositor or two that ignores some key semantic checks. I recall kwin in the past actually being okay with an initial commit with a buffer for xdg shell (unsure of it has been fixed).
<i509VCB>
There's also the fact that one tool to test is nicer than opening your app in 15 compositors
<tleydxdy>
ree oftc kicked me again
<i509VCB>
And compositors can also have bugs
<daniels>
not quite ... the patent clause in v3 is written widely enough - with the goal of commoditising patents as much as possible which is pretty much objectively socially good - that there are a hell of a lot of companies, including some of my customers, who have strict no-GPLv3-anywhere conditions, because as soon as GPLv3 enters your build chain they have to start thinking _really_ hard about what that implies, and the legal costs end
<daniels>
up dwarfing almost anything else
<daniels>
(some of it probably avoid it for tivoisation reasons too, I'm sure)
<tleydxdy>
would simply using GPLv3 trigger any of that?
<tleydxdy>
it's just a tool you use to develop whatever software right?
<daniels>
tleydxdy: not necessarily, but it triggers a lot of high-level lawyering to figure out exactly what the exposure _is_, and it's far more simple to just never touch it
<tleydxdy>
the test suite
<kennylevinsen>
Not too familiar with cases where companies avoid GPLv3 and not GPLv2, outside concerns around projects changing license (and Linux' infamous V3 aversion)...
<daniels>
so yeah, I'm not personally making a moral argument against GPLv3 or whatever. but pragmatically, as someone whose time is funded by a lot of these people, it's far harder for me to contribute to v3 projects
<emersion>
ok, thanks for explaining
<daniels>
the 'hostile' part is simply because I don't like the asymmetry where one project can freely take as much code as it likes from other projects, but the reverse isn't possible
<daniels>
others can completely disagree with me on that and be right as well, because it's a subjective judgement :)
<emersion>
just write the worse implementation possible and you're guaranteed that no other project is going to copy-paste it :^)
<daniels>
hahaha
<daniels>
the anti-reference? :P
<i509VCB>
Well I imagine part of it could be, well the lawyer has an X per hour rate and it was a real pain the last time we had to deal with Y, so avoid the problem entirely by rejecting Z license.
<daniels>
it's not that I don't want other people using my code - god knows significant chunks of weston have been copy & pasted into other projects, and that was part of the point - but I do like the status quo with a lot of the low-level gfx stack where we can freely share code between each others' projects and arrive at the best common thing
<i509VCB>
Of course this is speculation
<daniels>
e.g. I think wlr_addon is quite good and I've got a branch somewhere to just lift that into Weston with a regex
<tleydxdy>
emersion what was that c++ thing again, that they have to remove be cause every implementation copied the PoC that was really bad
<daniels>
i509VCB: part of it is the cost, and part of it is the time as well. lawyers don't move quickly
<tleydxdy>
try_allocate?
<i509VCB>
Yeah you can tell I am not a lawyer
<kennylevinsen>
most companies I work with avoid unfortunately avoid all versions of GPL altogether as if it was the devil incarnate as it's very expensive to reason about, and easier to just... Not do that.
<tleydxdy>
kennylevinsen in source form or just using a tool?
<tleydxdy>
do they also avoid the kernel or gcc?
<i509VCB>
Well using gcc to conpile code is different from, use libfoogpl3
<daniels>
kennylevinsen: I think LGPL has been a pretty successful halfway house between MIT and GPL for projects like GStreamer
<tleydxdy>
not wanting to deal with the source/library, sure. but it's totally not what is talked about here right?
<i509VCB>
Weston being freely usable does help, we have referenced Weston at least a few times to find tune some parts of grabs in smithay
<tleydxdy>
it's a thing that test your thing, it's a dev tool just like any other
<tleydxdy>
besides even if you link or modified the source, as long as you don't redistribute it's fine anyway
<i509VCB>
Well the legalist in some people may say: well you looked at what wlcs tests for and that's GPL, so I'm a bit concerned about you referencing it for semantics
<kennylevinsen>
Tools on developer machines, rarely a problem, anything shipped in any form is a huge probkem
<bwidawsk>
yes, I won't look at cosmic, for example because it's GPL and I don't want to have to ask a lawyer
<bwidawsk>
WLCS is different because it wouldn't ship, but, it's somewhat easier if you make what you develop with and what you ship, the same
<daniels>
^
<bwidawsk>
well known tools like gcc have already had the lawyering done for them
<bwidawsk>
OTOH, if WLCS is best equipped to just slipstream in as the defacto solution here, then it might be worth it *shrug*
<i509VCB>
And if you are truly concerned about gcc, clang is always an option
<tleydxdy>
I don't see how there would ever be a need to ship a compliance testsuite with the compositor, you just say you are compliant or not compliant
<tleydxdy>
unit test? sure, compliance test is by definition an outside perspective
<bwidawsk>
tleydxdy: it starts to get tricky if you ship an SDKish thing to a customer
<tleydxdy>
why
<bwidawsk>
There's viral liability if you give something with GPL code to another part
<bwidawsk>
party
<tleydxdy>
just tell them to get it themself
<tleydxdy>
if you are that allergic
<kennylevinsen>
daniels: yeah LGPL is pretty good, otherwise MIT, BSD sometimes Apache if patent grants are not too touchy a subject
<bwidawsk>
tleydxdy: this has nothing to do with me, this is entirely a business and legal decision
<bwidawsk>
ie. it may not be based in fact or reality
<tleydxdy>
my point is at no point would this GPL thing cause any trouble, just don't ship it is always an option
<jadahl>
kennylevinsen: LPGLv3 is probably just as touchy for the companies that are afraid of GPLv3
<daniels>
yep
<tleydxdy>
and realistically I don't see any reason to ship it
<jadahl>
but then if the test suite is (l)gplv3, then don't ship it in any sdk meant for those companies?
<jadahl>
it's not like they'll go and install the CI
<jadahl>
it'd be really interesting to see what happened if linux was originally gplv2+ and then changed to gplv3+ :P
<tleydxdy>
as for SDK shipping it probably causes more trouble, since compliance test could be updated when things are found
<tleydxdy>
but the SDK probably not
<daniels>
tleydxdy: modern supply chains make that difficult. if you take automotive as an example, we as a consultancy work with (to whatever level) a 'tier-1' mega-supplier who does a lot of the physical & software engineering for the car platform. they then ship that to the 'OEM' (the manufacturer you know) who makes their own changes and customisations. the OEM then ships that platform further downstream to ISVs who build apps etc
<tleydxdy>
* but the SDK probably won't update with that
<daniels>
and I'm eliding some steps here ...
<jadahl>
tleydxdy: if the sdk is incompatible with gpl3 then it'd be as good as it is now, as in without any cross compositor compliance test suite
<daniels>
so 'just don't ship it' is pretty difficult when not only do you have to ship it, but it has to be shipped down through several further layers, all of whom will have lawyers looking at it and saying 'wait, this requires _what_?'
<daniels>
(again, I'm not saying this is the optimal setup which would exist in a perfect world. but it is the reality we live in, and what funds most open-source consultancies)
<tleydxdy>
daniels again, you just need to say whatever you ship is "compliant"
<tleydxdy>
no need to ship the testsuite
<daniels>
tleydxdy: both the tier-1 and OEM are going to make their own customisations
<daniels>
is it compliant after those? who knows!
<tleydxdy>
yeah, and they could break compliance anyway
<daniels>
they could. having the test suite allows them to know whether or not they have. rather than saying 'ah yeah well, some company a few rungs above in the supply chain told us a few months ago that the base was compliant so that's good enough'
<tleydxdy>
realistically only the last layer need to test for compliance
<daniels>
not really
<tleydxdy>
compliance is like a sticker right? you put it on the box after someone did some test on your stuff
<tleydxdy>
so why would you do it when it's not needed?
<i509VCB>
With a compositor, the test compositor may be compliant, but your own may need to do something differently and therefore something that the underlying library relies on consumers to validate
<tleydxdy>
say company A buys software from company B, they ask "are you compliant?" so company B go and get a comliance sticker
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<tleydxdy>
at not point would company B actually need to ship this compliance test
<tleydxdy>
same for company C that buys from A
<tleydxdy>
A will and have to get a compliance sticker themself
<tleydxdy>
at not point does shipping the code help any of this
<bwidawsk>
Part of the problem here is that we engineers often don't get to answer these questions.
<i509VCB>
Also what about niche protocols. The test suite can't have every protocol. It doesn't make a lot of sense to add support for the foo_obelisk_v45 protocol in wlcs. So we can't really argue compliance everywhere but common protocols
<daniels>
tleydxdy: that's a massive oversimplification of how this actually works in reality
<tleydxdy>
daniels so at which point would shipping the code help?
<daniels>
at every point in the supply chain in which it's repackaged, modified, shipped on a different base OS, etc, and that's not a single-digit number of points
* daniels
shrugs
<bwidawsk>
daniels: for my purposes, lets say GPL is non-optimal. What's the proposed alternative to WLCS? Do something just like it with a different license, or do something in existing weston test?
<tleydxdy>
does shipping the code at those point ensure you shipped is compliant or not? no
<daniels>
the world you're describing sounds reasonable, but it's extremely different to the one I'm talking about
<jadahl>
but whats the worst thing (if weston integrates with wlcs) that can happen? you run more tests, but only upstream?
<daniels>
tleydxdy: yes
<daniels>
bwidawsk: I would like to have something just like it with a different license, because there's a lot of value in making sure that the various implementations have consistent behaviour
* daniels
side-eyes fractional scaling
<daniels>
jadahl: well, that and if I'm working on zwp_global_coordinates_v1 for a client, it may not be something that I'm able to write wlcs tests for, so I'd end up putting more effort into another, parallel, test suite
<jadahl>
daniels: right, you'd only end up with tests for weston, but that doesn't stop wlcs doing its thing does it?
<jadahl>
i understand it's not ideal from your point of view, but does it have to be a nack?
<daniels>
jadahl: it's not a nack at all!
<daniels>
I don't have the power to tell anyone to do or not do anything, or ban the entire concept of wlcs
<daniels>
I'm just trying to explain the practical limitations that we (& most of the other consultancies) have on working with it
<daniels>
and why my ideal-world preference would be 'wlcs, but MIT'
<jadahl>
yea, i fully understand that, but i also (from a purely personal perspective) am very annoyed by the allergy towards *gpl3
<bwidawsk>
What's the one sentence explanation I can pass up as to why not just improve weston test, and, implement the weston test protocol - for my compositor?
<jadahl>
maybe you can convince them to relicenes under gplv2+ and it'll be just as nasty as linux
<daniels>
jadahl: that would work for me, but it would be sad if we developed some really nice & helpful patterns inside wlcs which we then couldn't reuse in weston/wlroots/mesa/...
<jadahl>
it's almost as... mit.. is the license being the problem here, spreading every where :P
<daniels>
on the balance of things, I'd personally be happiest if everything was GPLv2/LGPLv2.1, but they aren't
<bwidawsk>
Sorry to repeat my question, but I'm still not sure I understand the answer fully...
<bwidawsk>
What's the one sentence explanation I can pass up as to why not just improve weston test, and, implement the weston test protocol - for my compositor? And I'll expand it to, any compositor
<daniels>
the one-sentence answer is 'because wlcs exists and does that thing', but then there are those reasons why it's not widely adopted ...
<daniels>
I'd be fully on board with making the existing weston test suite into that thing
<bwidawsk>
daniels: is there anything it can do functionally that you couldn't do with weston test + new protocol?
<bwidawsk>
My understanding is fully on the 3 paragraphs in their README
<bwidawsk>
"Instead, wlcs relies on compositors providing an integration module, providing wlcs with API hooks to start a compositor, connect a client, move a window, and so on."
<jadahl>
daniels: i don't think the problem is making some test suite "that thing" when test covarege is the problem
<jadahl>
then again, i'm not sure how much wlcs tests atm
<bwidawsk>
my gross misunderstanding is it's black-box vs. white-box testing
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<daniels>
jadahl: it's always the way. writing test frameworks is mostly a diversion from writing tests
<daniels>
bwidawsk: I don't know of anything within wlcs itself (rather than the tests it has) that functionally couldn't be done within weston's tests
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<marler8997>
at HP we avoided GPLv3 like the plague but accepted GPLv2
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<RAOF>
re: wlcs & GPL: would switching the compositor-integration headers to MIT make a meaningful difference in people's feelings?
<RAOF>
Because I can ask about that, and it would probably be an easier sell than asking to make the whole thing MIT.