ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<fnstudio>
hello, i've been considering the option of transitioning to wayland; any recommended tutorial?
<fnstudio>
any particular reason why i may not want to switch? i know for instance that some window managers won't work with wayland (eg i3 and exwm)
<fnstudio>
anything else that you think i should watch out for?
<pq>
fnstudio, are you an end user, or are you developing a DE or WM?
<fnstudio>
pq, a humble end user (but with a relatively minimalist and customised environment, been running i3 for quite some time)
<jadahl>
fnstudio: if you're a i3 user then you probably want to check out sway
<pq>
fnstudio, it is better think about this as transitioning to another (minimalist) DE or almost-DE than transitioning to Wayland. The "DE" you pick just happens to be built with Wayland or not. The "DE" also defines what works and how. The X11 vs. Wayland is less important.
<fnstudio>
oh, this is interesting, thanks pq and jadahl - yes i'm aware of the lack of wayland support under i3 and that i should be looking into something else, e.g. sway
<fnstudio>
while it bothers me that i wouldn't be precluded from using exwm, i'm struggling with the complexity of startx/xinitrc and i was wondering if the start-up scripts were any cleaner under wayland?
<pq>
I say this, because with X11 especially minimalist people are accustomed to building their own custom environment around Xorg piece by custom piece. That won't work with Wayland per se, but it might work with a specific Wayland compositor like sway.
<fnstudio>
*i would be precluded
<pq>
start-up scripts (if any) are a feature of the Wayland compositor or DE you pick, and not a feature of Wayland.
<fnstudio>
pq: right, but from a xorg user's perspective, although xorg is not xinit and let alone startx, it is in a way... as startx ends up being my interface for launching xorg
<pq>
this is the recurring theme for *almost* any feature or issue you encounter :-)
<fnstudio>
i'm not sure if this relates to wayland in any way
<pq>
it doesn't, it's all about what specific DE/compositor you pick
<fnstudio>
ok, first of all thanks for helping, let me try and reword my question to see if i can advance my wayland understanding
<fnstudio>
what do you think i should be installing to have a minimalist wayland-based graphical environment? say, wayland plus sway?
<pq>
Wayland is not a program one could run. Wayland is a language that programs use to talk to each other, and some vague system-architectural design pattern.
<fnstudio>
ah
<fnstudio>
i see...
<fnstudio>
ok, but there must be a server running that speaks that protocol?
<pq>
yes, and that server is provided by each "DE". We call it "a Wayland compositor". Sway is one.
<pq>
some DE project have their completely own compositor, and some share compositors, and some share parts of a compositor as a library.
<fnstudio>
oh... i see... so in that sense sway is not a i3 replacement, it's more than that, it's a xorg-plus-i3 replacement, in a sense
<pq>
exactly!
<fnstudio>
cool, got it, excellent, thanks
<pq>
A Wayland compositor is a display server. A Wayland compositor also tends to integrate a window manager.
<fnstudio>
so technically, i should now join #sway and continue my exploration there... in a sense
<pq>
yes
<fnstudio>
cool, now i think i see what you were saying at the very beginning a few mins ago
<pq>
awesome :-)
<fnstudio>
before i move to sway, is there a large number of wayland tiling DEs, or sway is probably what i want to look at?
<jadahl>
fnstudio: if you're looking for something that behaves like i3, then sway
<fnstudio>
cool, brilliant, thanks
<jadahl>
but there are other tiling wms too
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<fnstudio>
i might be wrong but i also understand that the wayland architecture is generally considered more secure than x11's?
<fnstudio>
or is the difference mostly theorethical and not really a concern for end users?
<clever>
fnstudio: one "security" feature, is that you cant do screen-capture for the entire desktop, but that kinda makes screen sharing far more painful i find
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<qyliss>
The difference is theoretical unless you're using some other sandboxing mechanism like Flatpak
<fnstudio>
clever: oh interesting, good to know - yeah i might be able to accept that trade off in favour of security, but yeah good to know
<qyliss>
Because if you're not using a sandboxing mechanism, it doesn't matter what X11/Wayland do, applications can just ptrace each other
<fnstudio>
qyliss: hm right... or apparmor, i guess?
<clever>
qyliss: except for the ptrace-yama flag, where an app can only ptrace its children
<jadahl>
fnstudio: one can say that Wayland makes it possible to create a "secure" desktop environment, but compositors can, if they choose, allow "insecure" activities like unnoticed keylogging, screen capturing etc if they so choose
<fnstudio>
jadahl: yep, got it, it makes sense, brilliant
<jadahl>
the difference is that the feauters that are deemed insecure are not a built in corner stone as it is on X11
<jadahl>
*features
<fnstudio>
totally, makes sense
<fnstudio>
very helpful
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<fnstudio>
oh well, this is pretty impressive... without further ado i installed sway (not even as root, as a user), then i left this xorg session open and went to another TTY and launched sway from there
<fnstudio>
it... started!
<fnstudio>
and it magically picked up my i3 config and everything seems to be working seamlessly
<fnstudio>
i'm pretty stoked!
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<pq>
It's really nice to hear positive comments for a change. All thanks to sway developers. :-)
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