ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<pq>
that should stop the join/leave spamming of that user
<bl4ckb0ne>
thanks
<pq>
emersion, how should I have Meson find pnp.ids file in libdisplay-info?
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<pq>
can't really think of any good way
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<emersion>
pq, pkg-config when available?
<emersion>
do you want build-time or runtime?
<pq>
build-time
<pq>
and fallback when .pc file not installed
<emersion>
yeah, sadly, meson doesn't have a nice way to do this
<emersion>
we could get_option('datadir'), but this would return the option for the target machine
<pq>
right, I'll just hard-code an absolute path as the fallback
<emersion>
we cannot use get_option('prefix'), because that is usually "/usr/local"
<emersion>
yeah, that sounds like the most sane thing to do...
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<SardemFF7>
if you need the build-time value you can use dependency(native:true) maybe ?
<pq>
I need to handle the case when .pc file does not exist.
<pq>
since the .pc file is very new in the depended on project.
<pq>
it's hwdata, all we need is one file from it as-is: pnp.ids
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<riteo>
hiiiiiii!
<riteo>
I'm still that godot person with that popup issue
<kennylevinsen>
riteo: other's might need a bit more context than that :P
<riteo>
yeah I was writing it but I got interrupted by someone, sorry
<riteo>
one sec
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<riteo>
ok, so, to refresh the whole story: I always had issues with popups that gave weird errors or even segfaulted the compositor sometimes. Eventually I found out that it was due to the way xdg_popups work, which is by stacking themselves to an xdg_toplevel and by allowing only to be deleted in top-to-bottom order.
<riteo>
This is way too different from what godot expects/needs, which is pretty much an xdg_popup in a tree structure instead of a stack.
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<riteo>
I wonder, why are xdg_popups only stacked? I tried using subsurfaces to implement what godot calls "borderless windows" (small relatively-positionable windows) but they aren't made for that and the sway implementation really likes to show that
<riteo>
and talking about it I got a confirmation from kennylevinsen
<kennylevinsen>
If a popup's parent goes away (popups do not need to be children of toplevels, but can themselves be children of popups), then the popup must too, but I did not expect the order of sibling popups to matter.
<kennylevinsen>
That is definitely worth a bit of dicussion
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<riteo>
actually, popups not only can be children of popups, but from a careful reading it looks to me that popups can only be stacked one to the other, eg. parenting a popup to another it goes all the way down to the toplevel and stacks it
<riteo>
wait I'll fish the thing that really makes me thing that it works this way
<riteo>
> A newly created xdg_popup will be stacked on top of all previously created xdg_popup surfaces associated with the same xdg_toplevel.
<riteo>
this, this is way too limiting for what godot has to do (alongside the order-of-deletion thing)
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<kennylevinsen>
Do you have an example of where out of order popup stuff is needed?
<riteo>
it's kinda complicated
<riteo>
the godot editor is actually a godot game and as such most stuff you see can be replicated with components exposed to the user
<riteo>
as such, context menus and all of that stuff is implemented with what godot calls "borderless windows", pretty much what subsurfaces would be if they could be used for windows
<riteo>
now that stuff is placed in a tree and as such it has to be able to be manipulated in all sorts of ways a window tree should be able to be manipulated
<riteo>
(like, for example, reparenting a whole subtree to another window and deleting said window)
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<kennylevinsen>
I meant e.g. screenshots so people xod wrap their head around the things that would be popups and how the stack becomes an issue :P
<riteo>
oh
<kennylevinsen>
It can sometimes help to visualize stuff
<kennylevinsen>
It could be that popup is needs adjustment to fit a usecase that people agree should work, or that the use falls outside what popup was meant to do
<kennylevinsen>
After all, popup is not a low-level borderless window, it's a popup. Not all patterns that worked under X is supposed to work under Wayland. But having everybody be on the same page about the problem would be a good start.
<riteo>
yeah I get that
<riteo>
the thing is though that all examples I have at hand are just context menus and tooltips
<riteo>
but the user can make what they want with the borderless window node
<riteo>
I'll try placing some nodes, but I'm not sure how much it'd help
<kennylevinsen>
Didn't you have something that broke when you tried with xdg_popup due to the stack? Or was that also just a single context menu stack that was just destroyed in the "wrong" order as it was torn down?
<riteo>
in that case it was that
<riteo>
but I can't just ask godot to delete it cleanly, as every other use case with that node wouldn't be satisfied
<kennylevinsen>
No but backing a node with different implementations based on need is not unreasonable. I think wine Wayland picks based on a heuristic for example (although for something like Godot one could also expand with hints or new nodes with clearer behavior).
<kennylevinsen>
Or if all use-cases are popups, handling it correctly in the "backend" and making the disappeared Godot nodes inert when they are destroyed could also work
<riteo>
I mean, I could make some very complicated heuristic backend, but that'd take quite a while and at that point for the time being i'd just fallback to the single-window mode
<riteo>
which has its own little embedded window system
<kennylevinsen>
Without knowing much about Godot, I can't say if it's reasonable to make assumptions about node usage, if it's reasonable to ask for additional hinting to make it easier, or if fallback to single window is preferable
<riteo>
I can try to help
<riteo>
additional hinting could be done but godot supports *a lot* of different platforms so just adding hints for wayland would be kinda hard, administatively
<kennylevinsen>
But single window is definitely preferable to misuses of subsurface or popups if they don't fit the bill at all. Saves you (and end-users) a lot of headache.
<riteo>
I'm leaning on this too
<riteo>
tbh I already was going to switch to single-window mode but someone proposed to use subsurfaces
<riteo>
I tried them and stumbled here again
<riteo>
btw for completeness, regarding making assumptions about usecases that might perhaps be looked at, but as opposed to other features, it might cause objective usability issues if a project uses it in weird ways
<kennylevinsen>
Yeah that's best for when you have no other acceptable option. E.g., under wine it's either that or showing a whole desktop in a window...
<riteo>
I see
<kennylevinsen>
But you're good on that front, assuming users are mostly happy with single window.
<riteo>
that mostly is important
<riteo>
actually godot also makes (good) use of toplevels but its either both or neither
<riteo>
that can be fixed godot-side though
<riteo>
there was also an indication that some big contributors were ok with the idea of even defaulting to single-window for all platforms (godot is a semi-meritocratic democracy, is that makes sense)
<drakulix[m]>
What exactly is it, that makes subsurfaces not suitable for this use-case? Do they need to be freely movable by the user? Being able to reparent a subtree of one window to another sounds much more like a subsurface to me than a popup.
<riteo>
the fact that sway clips them, and it looks like its intended behvaiour
<riteo>
they can't go outside the window
<emersion>
subsurfaces going out of the window geometry are never guaranteed to be displayed
<emersion>
they can be off-screen, cropped by the compositor, behind other windows, etc
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<riteo>
I mean, the first and the third wouldn't be that bad
<riteo>
more than anything I don't really get what subsurfaces are for
<kennylevinsen>
First is pretty bad - not being able to access things in a context menu because it's off screen, and having to move the window to make it accessible is... Very bad UX :P
<riteo>
I know, but between that and the context menu being cropped because the window is too small...
<drakulix[m]>
They are there to offload compositing to... well the compositor.
<drakulix[m]>
E.g. a video player might use a subsurface for the video content and another for the overlayed ui.
<riteo>
I see
<riteo>
makes sense
<kennylevinsen>
Video is definitely a primary usecase. A canvas vs. UI in editing applications is another good example.
<drakulix[m]>
But sounds like the single-window approach is the best solution in that case (that or restructure godot). Something as broad as the "borderless window" you are describing (basically a modal-toplevel with relative positioning to a parent window) does not exist in wayland by design.
<drakulix[m]>
Because using those for context-menus or popups makes for bad UX. Wayland tends to have more specialized surface-roles and godot would need to use an appropriate one.
<riteo>
I see, and the positioner argument is actually a pretty good one
<riteo>
I didn't know that it positioned stuff relative to the output borders too
<kennylevinsen>
riteo: if Godot wants to revisit "multi-window" for Wayland, then we can always see if there is a reasonable solution. Changes to Wayland protocols is also possible if it aligns with the design intent, and larger Wayland adoption may also drive more interest in accommodating Wayland from the Godot side.
<kennylevinsen>
(maybe accomodating Wayland would end up as a general improvement, like allowing better popup positioning on other platforms)
<riteo>
it'd require quite some work, the main issue is that godot has to find a flexible API that works with as many platforms as possible
<riteo>
godot supports Android, IOS, X11 (Linux, BSD, whatever), Windows, MacOS, "The Web", and also other third party platforms like consoles
<riteo>
(third party means through non official means)
<riteo>
still, thanks for all the help you're giving, y'all!
<riteo>
I think I'll go with the single-window mode for now, concentrating on polishing the few things left so that at least the new shiny stable version has wayland and then looking from there
<kennylevinsen>
Sounds like a good plan :)
<riteo>
perhaps all that new adoption will give a lot of driving force from all over the engine developers to improve the whole windowing architecture
<riteo>
great, again thanks y'all, I'll disconnect for now and proceed with the plan. Byeeeeeee!
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<vyivel>
(from xdg-shell.xml) "An xdg_surface must only be after its role object has been destroyed."
<vyivel>
how is this meant to be enforced, provided that there's no error defined for it?
<vyivel>
mutter and weston ignore this completely, kwin and wlroots just log that the client did this, and smithay actually sends an error, but it's a wrong one (xdg_wm_base.role)
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<i509VCB>
Hmm the message seems incomplete from xdg-shell
<i509VCB>
Was there supposed to be a "an xdg_surface must only be destroyed ...?)
<kennylevinsen>
vyivel: do many clients disregard it? One solution is to change the spec, the other is to send a few bugfixes :)
<i509VCB>
It does seem odd that there is no specified error value to send
<kennylevinsen>
An error on destroy would be weird
<kennylevinsen>
Full protocol error is probably the only option, but wouldn't be possible without fixing a few clients...
<vyivel>
fwiw libwayland seems to support the case of sending an error to a destroyed object (it prints "[destroyed object]" instead of the id)
<DemiMarie>
What is the intended way to display context menus?
<kennylevinsen>
DemiMarie: xdg_popup
<DemiMarie>
kennylevinsen: I thought that runs into the problems that Godot has.
<vyivel>
i509VCB: yeah, i just copied it incorrectly, xdg-shell.xml has it written right
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<gabban>
Hola guys... I have two logitech mice, one of which I want to invert the clicks (left-handed). They're connected via bluetooth. using "libinput list-devices" yield: https://pastebin.com/NQY4NPZq
<gabban>
So on device 18 I'd like so set "left-handed" to enabled but I'm not sure how, can someone help me... (and hopefully get it permanent)
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<kennylevinsen>
DemiMarie: it remains the sole way to do so. The problems Godot have is due to trying to map a model that only has windows to Wayland, much like Windows and wine
<DemiMarie>
kennylevinsen: what is the reason for the “must destroy the toplevel popup first” restriction?
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<kennylevinsen>
Likely related to the fact that popups stack in order of creation, and multiple popups are meant for nested context menus.
<kennylevinsen>
But I don't know why that restriction was found necessary, and wouldn't be opposed to having that changed if a usecase was presented
<DemiMarie>
And having multiple context menus open at once is bad UX?
<kennylevinsen>
I haven't seen a UI that tries to do that at context menus usually relate to pointer operation and focus
<kennylevinsen>
Main case I can think of would be multiseat
<kennylevinsen>
But maybe a legitimate usage exists, where popups are temporary but not exactly context menus or in order. Say, touch and pointer in parallel, or hints that appear simultaneously with context menus but not directly tied to it
<DemiMarie>
Also multi-touch
<DemiMarie>
One can have multiple context menus in that case
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<kennylevinsen>
Having a context menu per finger does seem like bad UX though :P
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<riteo>
hiiii!
<riteo>
how does sway handle transparency in windowed mode?
<riteo>
I tried setting the opaque region but the window stays semitransparent
<kchibisov>
opaque region is a hint for compositor. It could be ignored and doesn't affect transparency in any way.
<riteo>
oof, thanks for letting me know
<kchibisov>
If you want opaque window then you should pick pixel format without alpha or keep alpha at 1.
<riteo>
mh, the thing is that I have zero control from the part of the project I'm contributing on
<riteo>
I'll have to talk to the rendering contributors and ask them
<riteo>
well, that's it I guess, thanks for the help!