05:20 <mjt> daniels: adding major version to the lib is common in between the ones who has no clue on what is a soname :)

05:22 <mjt> daniels: or when the abi isn't stable "enough" yet to declare it as such

05:29 <mjt> daniels: for example, https://dcreager.net/shared-library-versions/

05:31 <mjt> daniels: and this: https://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/html_node/Updating-version-info.html

05:33 <mjt> "Never try to set the interface numbers so that they correspond to the release number of your package. This is an abuse that only fosters misunderstanding of the purpose of library versions."

07:23 <mjt> what's needed these days to run (wlroots-based) compositors from a vt? I used to run just `weston' or `sway' from a text tty on linux. Now stuff errors out, -

07:23 <mjt> Could not activate session: permission denied

07:24 <mjt> ah, it's just `cage', sway and weston still works

07:33 <mjt> any1: for fun (re that archlinux wiki link about sway#Virtualization), qemu -vga qxl has its own share of issues, - bugs in qemu with mouse cursor handling to begin with. It works find with -vga std but breaks badly with -vga qxl :))

07:38 <daniels> mjt: sure, but there are plenty of packages out there who suggest that GNU are just noisily opinionated rather than objectively correct

07:48 <mjt> it's not about gnu. it's about practical usage. if your abi didn't change in incompatible ways, there's no need to recompile all users of your library

07:49 <mjt> when you bump your soname in every release, all users need to be recompiled

07:50 <mjt> wenever you change the ABI in incompatible way or not, do you care to keep it if possible, etc, is an entirely different matter

07:52 <mjt> you can declare that this library doesn't have stable ABI. Bumping soname in every release basically says, "don't use this library (yet)"

07:58 <mjt> basically, with sonames like this, it becomes impractical to have this library packaged in a downstream distribution (redhat/debian/arch/suse/whatever)

08:52 <daniels> I know what an ABI change means, yeah

08:53 <daniels> and it’s self-evidently not impractical, because all distributions _do_ package plenty of libs which encode a major into the name component to allow for parallel installation

08:53 <mjt> it depends on how often these versions changes, basically :)

08:55 <mjt> f.e. in debian one have to complete the "NEW package" procedure each time the soname changes, - which might require from several days to months, as each new package is being reviewed

08:57 <mjt> (one can argue this is a limitation of debian though)

08:59 <daniels> yeah, NEW isn’t exactly great

09:00 <daniels> but I take the point about wanting to limit ABI changes and it is something we’re working on

09:06 <mjt> it's not the abi changes, it's the *incompatible* abi changes

09:07 <mjt> if the soname changes anyway, there's no reason to think about keeping ABI compatible

09:08 <daniels> every ABI change is incompatible …

09:08 <daniels> unless you mean additions only

09:08 <mjt> nope, not at all. Say, a new value for an existing arument of a function

09:41 <mjt> if you need to add another argument to a function, you can just do it and break ABI, or you can introduce a new function with extra argument and keep existing function (and call the new functioon from the existing)

09:42 <mjt> (depending on common sense, - it's not a good idea to have tons of old compat functions too)

13:07 <wlb> weston/main: Daniel Stone * tests: Store output description into correct field https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/commit/5a2680956048 tests/weston-test-client-helper.c

13:07 <wlb> weston/main: Daniel Stone * tests: Don't leak single-pixel-buffer factory object https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/commit/03dd560d45c5 tests/single-pixel-buffer-test.c

13:07 <wlb> weston Merge request !1093 merged \o/ (Fix two trivial test leaks https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/merge_requests/1093)

13:27 <pq> mjt, yes, we know very well of soname and libtool versioning. That's exactly why we chose not to use them. The GNU library style is far too fragile and confusing. The very reason we do this is to make libweston packageable when we do break ABI every release, because there is no designed API yet. See "parallel installability" in Weston readme.

13:28 <mjt> pq: I guessed exactly as much: see my comment above, "or when the interface isn't stable (yet)"

13:29 <pq> mjt, and yes, we do know how we can avoid ABI breaks. However, the current API makes it quite impossible for many changes, because we expose far too much of the internal details, and cannot simply just close it all off in one go. People actually like the exposed internals, unfortunately.

13:30 <mjt> yeah, that definitely makes sense

13:30 <mjt> exposing internals is a two-edge sword too

13:30 <pq> so it was a very deliberate decisions to put major version in lib name, and not use the hidden soname versioning.

13:31 <pq> I don't appreciate being implied that we are just stupid.

13:33 <mjt> I come with a different background. libiscsi for example (I maintain(ed) it in debian): sometimes a new "major" release includes a few bugfixes (with no abi/api change whatsoever) and a new example binary, and the soname bump to match the release number. They did say their abi is stable though. At one point I gave up and start patching. So far, debian has libiscsi7, upsrteam is at 19

13:34 <mjt> my comment was a reply to daniels (not implying anyone's stupid or the like) about gnu

13:35 <mjt> I tend to evaluate actual technical stuff each time. not everything gnu is bad

13:36 <mjt> or a joke (which come before). either way, it was definitely friendly smile, not intended to punch anyone

13:53 <wlb> weston Merge request !1095 opened by Marius Vlad (mvlad) Handle fullscreen/maximized state for simple-shm/touch clients https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/merge_requests/1095 [Clients]

13:57 <wlb> wayland Merge request !286 merged \o/ (protocol: add note about wl_buffer/wl_callback version https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/merge_requests/286)

13:57 <wlb> wayland/main: Simon Ser * protocol: add note about wl_buffer/wl_callback version https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/commit/7f1c51a55613 protocol/wayland.xml

14:06 <wlb> weston/main: Marius Vlad * libweston/input: update view transforms when handling touch_down https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/commit/ab1a3c816486 libweston/input.c

14:06 <wlb> weston Merge request !1090 merged \o/ (libweston/input: update view transforms when handling touch_down https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/merge_requests/1090)

14:10 <wlb> weston Merge request !1075 merged \o/ (compositor: don't pass the signal flags to autolaunched process https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/merge_requests/1075)

14:10 <wlb> weston/main: Andrei Makeev * compositor: don't pass the signal flags to autolaunched process https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/commit/5b7561b25d7d compositor/main.c