marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
nrmntq has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.8]
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
darkapex1 has joined #asahi
darkapex has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
Guest7138 has quit [Quit: G-line: User has been permanently banned from this network.]
vx has joined #asahi
vx is now known as Guest7219
tobhe has joined #asahi
tobhe_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
fbisurveillancevan has joined #asahi
Guest7219 has quit [Quit: G-line: User has been permanently banned from this network.]
vx has joined #asahi
fbisurveillancevan has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
vx is now known as Guest7229
zef has joined #asahi
zef_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
possiblemeatball has joined #asahi
unicordion has joined #asahi
shota has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
moby has joined #asahi
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
systwi_ has joined #asahi
systwi has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
brad_ has joined #asahi
unicordion has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
Zopolis4 has joined #asahi
possiblemeatball has quit [Quit: Quit]
brad_ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
julio7359 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
marvin24 has joined #asahi
marvin24_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unicordion has joined #asahi
Graypup_ has quit [Quit: meow]
Graypup_ has joined #asahi
Graypup_ has quit [Quit: meow]
Graypup_ has joined #asahi
julio7359 has joined #asahi
moby has joined #asahi
rnowak has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
Guest7229 has quit [Quit: G-line: User has been permanently banned from this network.]
vx has joined #asahi
vx is now known as Guest7247
bisko has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
brad_ has joined #asahi
unicordion has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
mkurz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mkurz has joined #asahi
unicordion has joined #asahi
julio7359 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
brad_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
brad_ has joined #asahi
unicordion has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unicordion has joined #asahi
brad_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unicordion has quit []
guillaume_g has joined #asahi
thunfisch has joined #asahi
nyuhu has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
nyuhu has joined #asahi
ptudor has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<chadmed>
elvishjerricco: the speaker safety stuff relies on floating point math and interfacing with the sound card
<chadmed>
the kernel cannot do the former and the latter is not quite as stable as one would think it to be
<chadmed>
so it _needs_ to be done in userspace
ptudor has joined #asahi
Lightsword_ is now known as Lightsword
Lightsword is now known as Lightsword_
Lightsword_ is now known as Lightsword
ptudor has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
ptudor has joined #asahi
YigitOnline has joined #asahi
<chadmed>
oh my god i just used the mac mini's speaker for the first time (accidentally)
<chadmed>
seems i have some work to do this weekend...
<JTL>
I'm curious how failsafe a daemon can be, and if certain horrible conditikons (i.e kernel panics) can casue unpleasent "machinegun" style effects through speakers. Probably just remembering the horror of buggy onboard audio codecs on PCs.
<chadmed>
well it works in tandem with the kernel. the daemon will kick the asoc driver periodically to tell the kernel that it's still alive
<chadmed>
if the driver doesnt hear from it, it will put the codecs into a safe mode that limits their output to half the max, which is safe enough to prevent any damage
<chadmed>
this all happens transparent to the rest of userspace, and only the daemon knows about this via ioctls
<chadmed>
the daemon exists so that we can use the entire dynamic range of the system without having to _rely_ on safe mode all the time
<chadmed>
it takes in voltage and current measurements made by the codec at the voice coil of each speaker, and then uses that to compute the temperature of each speaker
<JTL>
I know
<chadmed>
right so whats the concern
<JTL>
Just an idle curiosity of how much can go FUBAR while still having "unafe" output to the speakers
<chadmed>
not a lot
<j`ey_>
kernel panic during loud music?
<chadmed>
if the daemon dies then the codecs will go into safe mode
<chadmed>
if the daemon hasnt died than you can be guaranteed that the volume currently coming out of the speakers is safe for them
<chadmed>
so even if the kernel shits the bed while youre playing loud music and you get a looping sample it should never have gotten loud enough to cause damage to the machine
YigitOnline has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<chadmed>
the watchdog should reboot the system before too long if the kernel dies anyway
<JTL>
makes sense
<bluetail>
the m1 mac mini has a fan right?
<chadmed>
i believe so yes
<bluetail>
what about just blasting the fan at 100% all the time? :D
<chadmed>
well the desktop machines dont get loud enough to cause damage in any case because they dont have tweeters
<chadmed>
its really the tweeters we're most concerned about here
nyilas has joined #asahi
YigitOnline has joined #asahi
nyilas has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
nyilas has joined #asahi
veeyee has joined #asahi
<veeyee>
New GitHub sponsor here, just wanted to say great work so far. Looking forward to seeing the project develop over time
Zopolis4 has quit []
MajorBiscuit has joined #asahi
YigitOnline has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
jess has joined #asahi
YigitOnline has joined #asahi
bisko has joined #asahi
Moprius has joined #asahi
Moprius has quit []
YigitOnline has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<bluetail>
I run asahi since its developers release
<bluetail>
no issues so far... been a stable nasbox with a 10 bay usb storage unit :D
<bluetail>
even runs my 2.5gbps lan adapter via usb fine
<bluetail>
some mass-storage devices make u-boot panic though, but thats under investigation and I really love how supportive the people are to solve the issues.
YigitOnline has joined #asahi
YigitOnline has quit []
YigitOnline has joined #asahi
donk has joined #asahi
D-Spirits has joined #asahi
YigitOnline has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Fischmiep has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Fischmiep has joined #asahi
Fischmiep has quit []
Fischmiep has joined #asahi
Fischmiep has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
sefidel has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Fischmiep06 has joined #asahi
sefidel has joined #asahi
Fischmiep06 has quit []
Fischmiep05 has joined #asahi
Fischmiep0 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<jonmason>
I see that the mac mini m2 dts was pushed to the kernel recently. I recently purchased one. Is there anything I can do to help get it working?
MajorBiscuit has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
Fischmiep05 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Guest7247 has quit [Quit: G-line: User has been permanently banned from this network.]
vx has joined #asahi
vx is now known as Guest7317
<chadmed>
ayke_: it's not that it's technically impossible outright, it's that its annoying to implement, way more work than its worth, and would result in a shitfight on the mailing lists
<chadmed>
why go through all that when we can just far more easily implement it in userspace
<chadmed>
of course, anyone whos not convinced that this is a safe architecture is more than welcome to not use the speakers :)
donk has quit [Quit: Leaving]
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby has joined #asahi
moby1 has joined #asahi
nyilas has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<elvishjerricco>
chadmed what if the daemon never starts at all for some reason? Is it still guaranteed that you can't break the speakers?
<j`ey_>
then it'll be in failsafe mode
<jn>
whenever the daemon isn't there, the kernel will set a safe volume
<jn>
which is quieter than desirable, but at least it's always safe
moby has joined #asahi
moby1 has joined #asahi
avocicltb^ has joined #asahi
Zopolis4 has quit []
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<JTL>
if the kernel can shit itself (i.e panic) while sound is playing and not damage the speakers I'd call that a success.
moby has joined #asahi
moby1 has joined #asahi
<mps>
so iiuc safe is not to start daemon at all and have always safe max volume?
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby has joined #asahi
moby1 has joined #asahi
<chadmed>
mps: not at the moment because the requisite kernel features havent been wired up just yet
<chadmed>
but once speaker support is officially merged then yes, the kernel will start the codecs already in safe mode and only unlock them if the daemon hits the correct IOCTL
<mps>
chadmed: ofc, I don't talk about current status
<chadmed>
the whole idea is that we will always explicitly fail safe so that folks dont have to tiptoe around the machine and have this stuff front of mind
<chadmed>
like i said anyone whos not convinced is free to just not use the speakers but this isnt our first rodeo
<chadmed>
when speakers are released officially you can be satisfied that you will have no possible way to blow them up from userspace under any circumstances
<mps>
as someone who fried speakers once on chromebook I'm cautious
zalyx has joined #asahi
delsol has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
<chadmed>
you havent lived until youve fried a dynacord cobra line array :D
<mps>
eh, don't have such things to try ;-)
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<chadmed>
i miss having such things to play with
<chadmed>
i guess unreasonably expensive laptops are a decent stand-in
zalyx has quit [Quit: later alligator]
<mps>
my son was DJ earlier and we have some such things in garage but I didn't used them
zalyx has joined #asahi
<elvishjerricco>
chadmed I assume that one could write their own daemon that is specifically designed to abuse that IOCTL to destroy the speakers, right?
moby has joined #asahi
moby1 has joined #asahi
moby has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
moby1 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<chadmed>
elvishjerricco: well yeah but like... cmon
<chadmed>
we cant control for every "what if a squad of deadly cyborg hyperninjas breaks into your house and desolders the current sensing shunt" hypothetical
<chadmed>
the risk assessment here is that if someone has sufficient access to your system to stop a daemon owned by root and replace it with their own bad code from under your node you have far bigger things to worry about than your speakers
MajorBiscuit has joined #asahi
<chadmed>
the other part of this equation is that the DSP we apply via pipewire is by itself enough to prevent *catastrophic* failure of the speakers. i have been dogfooding my work for over a year at this point and ive done some incredibly evil things to this laptop
<chadmed>
still works like the day i got it
<elvishjerricco>
chadmed I'm just saying userspace can in fact break your hardware. Even for malicious software, that's unusual
<chadmed>
yeah i get that and like i said this isnt our first experience with this sort of scenario
<chadmed>
its just going to be so exceedingly rare and impossible to control for that theres no point even trying to engineer around it lest we end up never releasing anything because its not absolutely 100% totally invincible to all freak impossible edge cases
<chadmed>
99% is good enough for basically everyone, and if youre in the 1% of edge cases where this system falls down then youve got worse things happening on your machine than failing speakers
<chadmed>
its basically the worst kind of scope creep