marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<chadmed> elvishjerricco: the speaker safety stuff relies on floating point math and interfacing with the sound card
<chadmed> the kernel cannot do the former and the latter is not quite as stable as one would think it to be
<chadmed> so it _needs_ to be done in userspace
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<chadmed> oh my god i just used the mac mini's speaker for the first time (accidentally)
<chadmed> seems i have some work to do this weekend...
<JTL> I'm curious how failsafe a daemon can be, and if certain horrible conditikons (i.e kernel panics) can casue unpleasent "machinegun" style effects through speakers. Probably just remembering the horror of buggy onboard audio codecs on PCs.
<chadmed> well it works in tandem with the kernel. the daemon will kick the asoc driver periodically to tell the kernel that it's still alive
<chadmed> if the driver doesnt hear from it, it will put the codecs into a safe mode that limits their output to half the max, which is safe enough to prevent any damage
<chadmed> this all happens transparent to the rest of userspace, and only the daemon knows about this via ioctls
<chadmed> the daemon exists so that we can use the entire dynamic range of the system without having to _rely_ on safe mode all the time
<chadmed> it takes in voltage and current measurements made by the codec at the voice coil of each speaker, and then uses that to compute the temperature of each speaker
<JTL> I know
<chadmed> right so whats the concern
<JTL> Just an idle curiosity of how much can go FUBAR while still having "unafe" output to the speakers
<chadmed> not a lot
<j`ey_> kernel panic during loud music?
<chadmed> if the daemon dies then the codecs will go into safe mode
<chadmed> if the daemon hasnt died than you can be guaranteed that the volume currently coming out of the speakers is safe for them
<chadmed> so even if the kernel shits the bed while youre playing loud music and you get a looping sample it should never have gotten loud enough to cause damage to the machine
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<chadmed> the watchdog should reboot the system before too long if the kernel dies anyway
<JTL> makes sense
<bluetail> the m1 mac mini has a fan right?
<chadmed> i believe so yes
<bluetail> what about just blasting the fan at 100% all the time? :D
<chadmed> well the desktop machines dont get loud enough to cause damage in any case because they dont have tweeters
<chadmed> its really the tweeters we're most concerned about here
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<veeyee> New GitHub sponsor here, just wanted to say great work so far. Looking forward to seeing the project develop over time
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<bluetail> I run asahi since its developers release
<bluetail> no issues so far... been a stable nasbox with a 10 bay usb storage unit :D
<bluetail> even runs my 2.5gbps lan adapter via usb fine
<bluetail> some mass-storage devices make u-boot panic though, but thats under investigation and I really love how supportive the people are to solve the issues.
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<jonmason> I see that the mac mini m2 dts was pushed to the kernel recently. I recently purchased one. Is there anything I can do to help get it working?
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<arnd> jonmason: see https://society.oftrolls.com/@AsahiLinux@treehouse.systems/109985145523510115 for the two major missing bits.
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<jonmason> arnd: thanks
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<jannau> arnd: the first point is moot
<ayke_> chadmed: floating point doesn't work in the kernel? That makes sense. But what about softfloat or fixed point math?
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<ayke_> Are these FP operations performance sensitive?
<ayke_> I have some experience converting floating point math to fixed point math for chips without FPU, so that _shouldn't_ be a blocker.
<ayke_> (meaning, I expect it can be implemented using fixed point math if needed)
<ayke_> I don't know about "interfacing with the sound card", no idea how difficult it is.
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<jn> floating point can be used in the linux kernel, but it's a bit of a hassle
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<jn> for example, WireGuard uses the same infrastructure (for SIMD cryptography)
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<chadmed> ayke_: it's not that it's technically impossible outright, it's that its annoying to implement, way more work than its worth, and would result in a shitfight on the mailing lists
<chadmed> why go through all that when we can just far more easily implement it in userspace
<chadmed> of course, anyone whos not convinced that this is a safe architecture is more than welcome to not use the speakers :)
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<elvishjerricco> chadmed what if the daemon never starts at all for some reason? Is it still guaranteed that you can't break the speakers?
<j`ey_> then it'll be in failsafe mode
<jn> whenever the daemon isn't there, the kernel will set a safe volume
<jn> which is quieter than desirable, but at least it's always safe
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<JTL> if the kernel can shit itself (i.e panic) while sound is playing and not damage the speakers I'd call that a success.
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<mps> so iiuc safe is not to start daemon at all and have always safe max volume?
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<chadmed> mps: not at the moment because the requisite kernel features havent been wired up just yet
<chadmed> but once speaker support is officially merged then yes, the kernel will start the codecs already in safe mode and only unlock them if the daemon hits the correct IOCTL
<mps> chadmed: ofc, I don't talk about current status
<chadmed> the whole idea is that we will always explicitly fail safe so that folks dont have to tiptoe around the machine and have this stuff front of mind
<chadmed> like i said anyone whos not convinced is free to just not use the speakers but this isnt our first rodeo
<chadmed> when speakers are released officially you can be satisfied that you will have no possible way to blow them up from userspace under any circumstances
<mps> as someone who fried speakers once on chromebook I'm cautious
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<chadmed> you havent lived until youve fried a dynacord cobra line array :D
<mps> eh, don't have such things to try ;-)
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<chadmed> i miss having such things to play with
<chadmed> i guess unreasonably expensive laptops are a decent stand-in
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<mps> my son was DJ earlier and we have some such things in garage but I didn't used them
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<elvishjerricco> chadmed I assume that one could write their own daemon that is specifically designed to abuse that IOCTL to destroy the speakers, right?
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<chadmed> elvishjerricco: well yeah but like... cmon
<chadmed> we cant control for every "what if a squad of deadly cyborg hyperninjas breaks into your house and desolders the current sensing shunt" hypothetical
<chadmed> the risk assessment here is that if someone has sufficient access to your system to stop a daemon owned by root and replace it with their own bad code from under your node you have far bigger things to worry about than your speakers
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<chadmed> the other part of this equation is that the DSP we apply via pipewire is by itself enough to prevent *catastrophic* failure of the speakers. i have been dogfooding my work for over a year at this point and ive done some incredibly evil things to this laptop
<chadmed> still works like the day i got it
<elvishjerricco> chadmed I'm just saying userspace can in fact break your hardware. Even for malicious software, that's unusual
<chadmed> yeah i get that and like i said this isnt our first experience with this sort of scenario
<chadmed> its just going to be so exceedingly rare and impossible to control for that theres no point even trying to engineer around it lest we end up never releasing anything because its not absolutely 100% totally invincible to all freak impossible edge cases
<chadmed> 99% is good enough for basically everyone, and if youre in the 1% of edge cases where this system falls down then youve got worse things happening on your machine than failing speakers
<chadmed> its basically the worst kind of scope creep
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