#openwrt-devel on 2023-07-22 — irc logs at oftc.irclog.whitequark.org

2023-05-02 04:42 ChanServ changed the topic of #openwrt-devel to: Forum: https://forum.openwrt.org/ | Wiki: http://openwrt.org/ | Release: https://downloads.openwrt.org/releases/22.03.5 | Notes: https://openwrt.org/releases/22.03/notes-22.03.5 | Logs: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/openwrt-devel

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01:47 <Mangix> \x: remember, the more voltage the less current

01:47 <\x> yes

01:47 <\x> ik ik, i am an electrical enginner man

01:48 <\x> thats why im saying those 5V external power inputs are better for those mini pcie radios

01:48 <\x> youll need smaller traces too

01:50 <Mangix> I talked somewhat recently with a dude on 230V vs 120V

01:51 <\x> why not have the best of both worlds on that thing like what we have in the philippines, center tapped 230V

01:52 <Mangix> how is that the best of both worlds? 120V is inferior to 230V

01:52 <Mangix> well, center tapped 240V

01:53 <\x> Mangix: lower line to ground voltage

01:53 <\x> so a bit less risk of death from electrocution

01:53 <Mangix> oh? tell me more

01:54 <slh> nah, there's nothing but a 230 VAC wake up call in the morning ;)

01:54 <\x> basically you just have a center tapped thransformer, you ground/earth the center tap and use the two for power

01:55 <Mangix> yeah that's how it is at home. I have two 120V phases, 240V RMS

01:55 <Mangix> but how are two better than 1? 1 should have less current

01:56 <\x> https://i.imgur.com/VDKyyk6.png

01:56 <\x> heres some \x-cad

01:56 <\x> what 120V phases? they arent out of phase

01:56 <\x> this isnt splitphase

01:56 <Mangix> oh? Mine are split phase

01:56 <Mangix> 180 degree difference

01:57 <\x> yeah that ones a meme, they are 180 deg oop so you add the two wires and you get 0V

01:58 <Mangix> so in the philippines it's not split phase? Isn't that what center tapping is?

01:58 <\x> i have put the dots on the coils

01:58 <\x> see

01:59 <\x> oh shit

01:59 <\x> you call it split phase there in the west

01:59 <\x> my bad

01:59 <\x> its this shit

01:59 <\x> https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/efficiency-of-high-voltage-system-example1.jpg

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02:00 <\x> https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/step-down-transformer-with-center-tapped-secondary-winding.jpg

02:02 <Mangix> not sure I get it yet. I don't get how split phase is better than single

02:02 <\x> basically you can drive both 120V and 240V loads

02:02 <Mangix> right but what's the point of 120V?

02:02 <\x> you also get the benefit of lower line to neutral and line to ground voltages

02:03 <Mangix> 120V needs thicker cables because of higher amps

02:03 <\x> yes but as you see you can drive 230V loads easily

02:03 <\x> which is the norm here

02:03 <\x> you also get the benefit of lower line to neutral and line to ground voltages

02:03 <\x> ^^

02:04 <Mangix> so less electrocity going to ground?>

02:04 <\x> when someone gets electrocuted yes

02:05 <Mangix> not sure I get it. lower voltage == higher current.

02:05 <Mangix> for a given load

02:06 <\x> you see when you get electrocuted, the higher the voltage which is also called potential difference, the higher current can pass

02:06 <\x> voltage is defined as joule per coulomb

02:07 <\x> and current is coulumb per second

02:07 <\x> electrocution is a hard shit to explain to normmies, many argue voltage kills, or current kills, when in reality nope, its the energy that kills.

02:08 <Mangix> wattage?

02:08 <\x> nope

02:08 <\x> joules.

02:08 <\x> you can get electrocuted by real high wattage but a plit second and survive just like lightning

02:08 <\x> split second*

02:09 <\x> because you didnt absorb that much energy in the first place

02:10 <\x> wattage is power Mangix

02:10 <\x> energy is joules, basically wattage is joules over time

02:10 <Mangix> yes

02:11 <Mangix> I'm asking chatgpt. it's talking about magnetic fields. oh boy.

02:11 <\x> see power is volts * current

02:11 <\x> voltage is defined as joule per coulomb and current is coulumb per second

02:11 <\x> you multiply them coulomb cancels out

02:11 <\x> now you get power in watts which is joules per second

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02:23 <Mangix> chatgpt's response: https://gist.github.com/neheb/b6a39d7e84d64b4addcc54a78579ce4e

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02:28 <Mangix> anyway, I was in 230V land recently. I noticed a lot more light out of sockets on insertion

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08:23 <PaulFertser> \x: why would one get "electrocuted" when you are supposed to have RCD protection everywhere?

08:24 <PaulFertser> And do you even have protection for those sockets where you get two phases for driving 230 V loads?

08:31 <f00b4r0> PaulFertser: RCD doesn't prevent electrocution. It merely makes it last a lot less awful time :)

08:32 <PaulFertser> f00b4r0: it makes it relatively safe for most people

08:32 <f00b4r0> no.

08:32 <f00b4r0> it makes it "safer" (relative) than without. It doesn't make it "safe" (absolute).

08:34 <PaulFertser> "relatively safe" means exactly that no?

08:34 <f00b4r0> i don't know what it means for you. I would never suggest that "electrocution can be relatively safe", never mind the value of "relative".

08:34 <f00b4r0> especially when I don't know the audience that reads this.

08:35 <PaulFertser> Well, formally speaking electrocution is always fatal, so it can't be safe by definition.

08:35 <PaulFertser> I guessed you meant it informally as in "exposure to electric current flowing through some body parts".

08:36 <PaulFertser> That can be reasonably safe, depending on the current and time of course.

08:36 <f00b4r0> electric shock.

08:36 <PaulFertser> You'd need to define "shock" then.

08:36 <f00b4r0> which is the common (although abused) understood meaning for electrocution.

08:37 <f00b4r0> ok I'm sorry I don't have time for this. If you think RCD magically makes mains voltage safe, I suggest you prove it by experiment. Stick your fingers in some outlets; ideally when wet, and let us know the outcome? :P

08:38 <PaulFertser> f00b4r0: if I get killed how will you know the outcome?

08:38 <dwfreed> lol

08:38 <f00b4r0> sufficient timeout on your part will lift quantum uncertainty

08:38 <PaulFertser> Let's put it another way: when do you know RCD-protected exposure to be really dangerous?

08:39 <PaulFertser> Probably certain heart health conditions?

08:39 <f00b4r0> you just have to be wet.

08:39 <f00b4r0> and with a sufficient path to ground.

08:39 <f00b4r0> e.g. a bath tub

08:39 <f00b4r0> RCD will not save you there.

08:40 <f00b4r0> regardless of heart health.

08:40 <dwfreed> RCD also won't save you if there's no leakage current

08:40 <f00b4r0> indeed.

08:41 <dwfreed> if current is passing through you from hot to neutral, and there is none going to ground, RCD will not trip

08:41 <f00b4r0> if you short yourself between both poles of the outlet

08:41 <PaulFertser> I'd like to find some reputable source that would say RCD won't save in a bath tub.

08:41 <f00b4r0> yep

08:41 <f00b4r0> bah, just try it. Call it Darwin experiementation :)

08:41 <dwfreed> RCD may not trip fast enough with a good conduction to ground

08:43 <f00b4r0> in the same vein, RCD device may also be defective/worn out. Tough luck.

08:43 <PaulFertser> You're supposed to test it once a month.

08:43 <f00b4r0> (that's why you're supposed to test them *regularly*, which of course nobody does)

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11:37 <KGB-2> https://tests.reproducible-builds.org/openwrt/openwrt_tegra.html has been updated. (100.0% images and 100.0% packages reproducible in our current test framework.)

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12:35 <mrkiko> lynxis: hi!!

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15:09 <lu_zero> I tried to make a build of 23.05 for the bpi-r3 and somehow the production image loads fine, the recovery one does not boot with

15:09 <lu_zero> Overlayed FDT requires relocation

15:09 <lu_zero> Could not find a valid device tree

15:09 <lu_zero> there is something in the .config to be changed?

15:21 <colo> I am working on a PR to change busybox' Config-defaults.in to include more stuff by default. I do this by generating a new .config using the menuconfig target. is there a good way to apply changes from .config to Config-defaults.in in a semi-automated manner, or will I have to make something up?

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22:43 <lu_zero> and now kmod-wireguard fails to find/build kmod-crypto-kpp

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