14:54 <wlb> weston Issue #762 opened by Vincent Miles (shacabau) Multiple applications sharing same monito https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/issues/762

19:21 <akik> hi, xwayland acts as a seamless x11 server on wayland. is it possible to use weston in a similar fashion on xorg? i.e. i could run wayland apps seamlessly through weston?

19:22 <kennylevinsen> akik: no, but there is no technical reason that one could not write the opposite of Xwayland, and I would assume that it would be much easier and less error-prone to do.

19:23 <akik> kennylevinsen: there's no program currently that would do it?

19:25 <kennylevinsen> note that yuo can run many Wayland servers nested (i.e., as a window) under X11, but that's not "seamless"

19:26 <kennylevinsen> akik: no, I doubt anyone has felt a need for it. The number of people wanting to use X11 for their desktop environment, but also wanting to run Wayland-only applications is for now probably quite few.

19:26 <kennylevinsen> As most applications also have X11 support

19:28 <akik> i still hear wine/proton games work better with xorg

19:28 <kennylevinsen> At least for now, but that might of course change - in which case, feel free to start such project. My I suggest naming it "Worg"? or "waylandX"? :)

19:28 <akik> i don't know if those people used xwayland

19:28 <akik> :) i'm no programmer, just a linux user

19:29 <kennylevinsen> steam is often used in conjunction with gamescope for a better experience, which is actually a Wayland compositor using Xwayland

19:30 <akik> ok thanks for the info

19:40 <akik> kennylevinsen: arch wiki says: "Currently it does not have native support for Wayland clients [1] and on a Wayland session it will use XWayland.

19:40 <akik> kennylevinsen: i mean gamescope

19:40 <akik> kennylevinsen: so is it only for x11 apps?

19:45 <kennylevinsen> gamescope is a Wayland server which for now is only meant to run X11 apps through Xwayland (because pretty much all games are X11 right now)

19:45 <kennylevinsen> it's specialized for running games

19:46 <kennylevinsen> gamescope itself can run either under Wayland, X11 or directly on drm/kms ("bare metal") in order to show you said X11 game

19:46 <akik> thanks really helpful info

19:48 <vbt> hey, i came across https://lobste.rs/s/3bdlpn/thread_on_deterioration_accessibility which discusses accessibility in wayland.

19:49 <vbt> so, question is that how can we improve accessibility in wayland?

19:51 <kennylevinsen> "how to make XYZ better?" is an extremely vague question. Start by understanding the usecase, then understand the shortcomings, then suggest improvements.

19:52 <vbt> But,i asked "How to make ABC in XYZ better?" though

19:54 <kennylevinsen> same thing

19:56 <vbt> ok. let me rephrase otherwise. what would it take for wayland to support screenreaders like orca better?

19:59 <kennylevinsen> that is an easier question - a screen reader would need to access the text either through an a11y side channel (e.g., some dbus API), or through a new Wayland protocol to allow text inspection to privileged clients.

20:00 <kennylevinsen> either way, it is cooperative - both the application being read and the reader needs to talk to each other

20:02 <kennylevinsen> Without, the only output from an application is rendered pixels - screen recording and running OCR is not a great option

20:03 <kennylevinsen> but having experience *using* accessibility with other platforms (including X11), and how they work, would be useful to discussions

20:04 <kennylevinsen> many have never used accessibility features and are blind (no pun intended) to available technologies and their issues

20:18 <qyliss> that side channel already exists, right? and is independent of X/Wayland IIRC

20:19 <qyliss> the two complaints in the linked thread are that Orca on Wayland crashes when trying to do mouse emulation, and that Orca can't interact with the clipboard, because it doesn't have a window

20:19 <qyliss> so one fairly obvious thing to be done to make Wayland accessibility better would be to fix that Orca bug

20:21 <qyliss> the clipboard one is more complicated