ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<MrCooper>
in addition to what kennylevinsen wrote, a general-purpose compositor cannot guarantee that a surface is only ever displayed via direct scanout; e.g. it can be visible as a thumbnail when switching between applications via Alt-Tab or whatever, or there can be notifications on top of the fullscreen surface
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<jpoth>
Hi all ! Do you know if CentOS has a Yum repository for Wayland 32bit ? Thanks !
<jpoth>
Weird I have the repo CentOS Stream 9 - AppStream but the package wasn't showing up
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<ofourdan>
the devel package are mostly the C headers, so you can compile, the 32bit variant of the shared libraries are the .i686 packages I pointed out earlier. Installing the devel package using dnf (or yum, although deprecated) should pull the i686 packages as well (but do not take my word on that, best is to try ^_~)
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<ofourdan>
iow, "sudo dnf install wayland-devel.i686" should install what you want, iuc.
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<craftyjon>
From the forum thread, it seems like getting this functionality should be possible, but is non-trivial compared to X11/windows/macos. I'm hoping to find a developer who is up for implementing a proof-of-concept as a contract job
<craftyjon>
I have yet to find any application that has actually solved this issue in their own code (using the pointer constraints extension) but if anyone knows of one, that might also be useful
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<ofourdan>
Xwayland implements pointer contraints using the Wayland protocols for X11 emulation, see xwayland-input.c
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<davidre>
People in that issue seem hostile without knowing the facilities that are available :/
<craftyjon>
@ofourdan thanks. as there is seemingly a fair bit of complexity there, still interested in hearing from any developer who understands this system well in Wayland who is up for either having a direct chat about what path to take, or up for contracting to implement it
<craftyjon>
@davidre unfortunately I think this topic has created some hostility because some people have gotten the impression that Wayland sees wanting to move the mouse cursor at all as behaviour that should be discouraged
<craftyjon>
I don't know whether or not this is true but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm just a downstream application developer, I don't really have a good understanding of how Wayland, Xwayland, etc work, I just want my application to work right on Wayland
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<craftyjon>
A lot of the discussion about mouse control in Wayland I've seen seems to include hiding the cursor or locking the cursor, but this is not what we want
<craftyjon>
we want to keep the cursor visible but just warp it to a new location
<craftyjon>
and I think some of the frustration is that this is basically a few lines of code in X, MS Windows, macOS -- but seems to be quite complex in Wayland
<craftyjon>
Thanks, I will take a look at that too. But just by reading the function names: does it do the same thing as I'm asking for?
<craftyjon>
I think a lot of video games want to lock the system cursor to the center of the window or something, and then draw their own cursor internally or just receive relative motion
<craftyjon>
but we don't want that: we want to reposition the system cursor
<ofourdan>
are you asking for pointer constrants or to move the cursor programatically, that's two different things…
<craftyjon>
I want to move the cursor programmatically. Every thread I've seen about people asking for this says to use the pointer constraints extension to do this
<ofourdan>
probably libEI is your best bet then
<ofourdan>
the pointer contraints protocol is not to move the cursor programatically
<craftyjon>
well, that makes sense to me given its name, but then why does jfrancis in that gnome forum thread say that pointer constraints is the way to achieve it?
<craftyjon>
do they just misunderstand the OP's request?
<davidre>
ofourdan: Not sure libei is best used here for a toolkit function implemenetation
<ofourdan>
why not?
<davidre>
I would find it somehow surprising
<craftyjon>
re "There is no direct cursor warping in wayland as far as I understand": can it be added, then? If so, would pointer-constraints be a reasonable place to add it, since the extension is still experimental? or would it be a new extension or something?
<davidre>
Imagine you call a hypothetical gtk_set_cursor_pos and it starts establishing a whole ei context and things just so it can do that one thing, feels kinda off to me
<craftyjon>
to be clear: I'm not coming in here demanding someone do something for me in Wayland, just trying to understand the details of what I want/need so that I can pose more intelligent questions in wherever the right location is
<ofourdan>
davidre: that's whta libEI is for though (among other things) - It can even use the portal so that the user has her word to say
<davidre>
craftyjon: people keep pointing you because that is what comes closest to pointer warping
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<craftyjon>
ok, so what I understand is it's not currently possible directly inside wayland; I don't really have my head around what libEI is or how it could help here, but would it be appropriate for a toolkit like wxWidgets to temporarily switch to emulated input just to warp the cursor?
<craftyjon>
if I understand correctly what libEI does / what it is for, then I guess I knd of agree that it seems strange to set up a whole emulated input system just for this one call (and then presumably tear it back down)
<craftyjon>
so, curious what your thoughts are on what the path would be for adding true cursor warping (not through input emulation) to wayland
<ofourdan>
I don't think a consensus was ever reached there
<zamundaaa[m]>
ofourdan: using libei for this purpose sounds entirely wrong to me as well. The use case is *not* moving the cursor around but infinite scrolling
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<ofourdan>
the use case mentioned wasto locate the cursor on screen programatically - how wxWidgets use that for is another story entirely, I reckon.
<craftyjon>
I can tell you about the specific downstream application use case I have, but the right place to fix this is in wxWidgets, not in our downstream application (I think)
<zamundaaa[m]>
Moving the cursor is not the use case, it's an implementation detail for the use case
<craftyjon>
zamundaaa: I don't think this is accurate. For the way we implement infinite scrolling, having a visible cursor that is warped to a new location is important
<zamundaaa[m]>
What you need is for the cursor to be warped - not for the application to move it to an arbitrary position. The difference is important
<craftyjon>
I don't understand the distinction you're making
<zamundaaa[m]>
The distinction is in which component moves the cursor. In one case it's the application, in the other it's the compositor
<craftyjon>
I guess I was assuming that the application would make a request to the compositor to move the cursor, which the compositor would do if it thinks it's a good idea (e.g. the application has focus, the new position is inside the application's window, etc)
<zamundaaa[m]>
I think the best solution for your use case would be something akin to zwp_confined_pointer_v1 - just that instead of stopping cursor movement when the cursor reaches the edge of a application-specified rectangle, the compositor would move it to the opposite edge
<craftyjon>
by the way, we have more use cases for this besides infinite scrolling, that one is just easiest to explain (and matches the use case in that forum thread by another developer)
<craftyjon>
so, we don't just need the "when cursor hits edge of rectangle, move to opposite edge" behavior. We also need "move cursor to specific position in the middle of our application" behavior
<zamundaaa[m]>
You're describing a mechanism again. What's the actual use case you want to achieve with that?
<craftyjon>
We have a mode in our tool that some users prefer for UX reasons. When this mode is enabled, any zoom events (from mouse wheel, or other input devices) will result in warping the cursor position to the center of the drawing canvas from whereiver it was
<d_ed[m]>
the idea being that when you trigger some action it zooms and your mouse moves to the selected item, but is otherwise is completely free
<craftyjon>
yup exactly
<kennylevinsen>
hmm, that's an unusual behavior but I can see how some might prefer it
<craftyjon>
it is divisive indeed, but the percentage of people that are die-hard fans of it is not tiny
<kennylevinsen>
now come to think of it I do remember finding kicad zoom behavior weird, and I guess this explains it :)
<d_ed[m]>
which doesn't map to the existing constrains and pointers. But it doesn't seem unfeasible to add, it's all within the bounds of the surface
<d_ed[m]>
s/pointers/pointer locks/
<craftyjon>
kennylevinsen: you can turn it off, fortunately :)
<kennylevinsen>
Yeah, I was also thinking that it would be possible to discuss a "within surface cursor warp" protocol - although it might end up rather niche
<kennylevinsen>
not saying it would be well accepted, but it is less concerning than general cursor warp requests
<craftyjon>
perhaps niche, but if it would not be opposed by the wayland project, it would help KiCad and other software that depends on this functionality continue to work properly on distros that drop X11 support
<craftyjon>
to be honest, I don't really understand the concern about general cursor warp, Microsoft and Apple allow it and it doesn't seem a big deal. But for my application I'd be happy with "within the bounds of a surface" for sure
<kennylevinsen>
but something like an application sneakily making a transparent fullscreen surface, warps the cursor and disappears again would be annoying
<craftyjon>
in my opinion a fear of people creating malware is not a reason to prevent valid use cases
<kennylevinsen>
craftyjon: other platforms also allow free keylogging
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<kennylevinsen>
some privileges in Wayland is given to those having the last input serial, so mechanisms that let you nudge focus to other apps are not *great*
<kennylevinsen>
risks relative to benefits and all that - might be entirely acceptable, might have bigger issues I haven't thought of
<craftyjon>
and there are some very valid reasons why applications may need to capture all the key events from the system
<zamundaaa[m]>
craftyjon: it's not just about malware. Many of these direct capabilities that apps get cause undesired behavior. It's always a tradeoff between security, usability and enabling niche use cases, and there's no general solution to all the use cases
<craftyjon>
I think that it should not be up to wayland etc. to define what is desired behavior or not within one application
<craftyjon>
the KiCad zoom behavior is weird, yes, but that's a KiCad concern
<craftyjon>
so, IMO there should be a way to control the mouse arbitrarily within the KiCad windows if they have focus
<craftyjon>
I can understand wanting to control applications switching focus between themselves, creating mouse events in other applications, etc
<craftyjon>
but that's not what I'm asking for
<kennylevinsen>
craftyjon: your proposal is not being rejected here, it's just some initial feedback
<kchibisov>
craftyjon: you can move the cursor with the locking stuff.
<kennylevinsen>
... that's a hack, though
<kchibisov>
That's how XWayland does it iirc.
<kchibisov>
Some games on windows indeed wrap the mouse, and that's how it's done with Xwayland iirc.
<kchibisov>
Because I know that warping worked for me before with Xwayland, though I had to patch something, because it required cursor to be visible or something.
<ofourdan>
nope, the pointer location is just a hint, you cannot rely on it
<kchibisov>
Yeah, but then you're out of luck.
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<d_ed[m]>
that sounds fine for kicad's case
<craftyjon>
IIRC the cursor has to be hidden for it to work?
<craftyjon>
anyway, I'd love for there to be some discussion of a "non-hack" version of this somewhere, so that people can figure out what they feel about security, etc
<ofourdan>
that's something Xwayland enforces, I do not think this is in the Wayland protocol though
<kchibisov>
I don't remember exactly, I can try to find an issue on Xwayland tracker doing warping.
<craftyjon>
for the keylogging example, as I recall there has been some effort put into creating "secure" alternatives to just letting applications listen to all key events, so that the legit applications that rely on this behavior can be made to work
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<craftyjon>
so if mouse warping is seen as a security issue, I'd like to join (or start) conversation on the same lines
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<zamundaaa[m]>
hmm checking KiCAD running through Xwayland here, warping the cursor works just fine with it being visible
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<craftyjon>
I believe we have some code in at the moment that temporarily hides and then re-shows the cursor
<craftyjon>
to work aroudn this issue
<craftyjon>
what I am worried about is what happens when some distros do not provide Xwayland anymore
<ofourdan>
that's quite unlikely in a forseable future
<ofourdan>
ther's just too much X11 legacy
<zamundaaa[m]>
craftyjon: outside of infinite scrolling and this zoom-to-center feature, do you have more use cases for cursor warping?
<kennylevinsen>
not *shipping* Xwayland is very unlikely - users not running Xwayland less so
<kchibisov>
Which also has a reference on how Xwayland emulates warping.
<kchibisov>
So I guess you can sort of port it.
<kchibisov>
But yeah, it's a hack to support legacy apps.
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* ofourdan
points out that I mentioned the Xwayland implementation at the very beginning of this discussion :þ
<kchibisov>
Yeah, I just wanted to find an issue, because warping was an issue before.
<craftyjon>
zamundaa: yes. in KiCad there is a "grid cursor" that is snapped to an active grid and determines where graphics will be placed. There are various editing workflows that happen where the user may open a dialog box or some other UI widget, and may interact with it using the system cursor. Sometimes we want to warp the system cursor back to the grid cursor when this UI is closed.
<kchibisov>
it just was on xwayland/xorg bugtracker.
<craftyjon>
so that their input position does not change from where it was before they launch the dialog
<ofourdan>
kchibisov: oh, completely agree, just finding it funny that we circle back to the starting point, that's it :)
<craftyjon>
ofourdan: I started looking through the Xwayland code but got discouraged by people saying that pointer constraints isn't actually going to do what we want
<kchibisov>
craftyjon: they probably never tried or think about confined pointer.
<kchibisov>
it's true that it may not work reliably though.
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<ofourdan>
I think the hardest part is to articulate clearly what we want, without bias implied by any existing implementation :)
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<kchibisov>
ofourdan: I think the point is to move the cursor when some button was pressed.
<kchibisov>
So for example, the client could move cursor over its surface, but only when the can provide a serial.
<kchibisov>
they can*
<craftyjon>
what I want is for wxWidgets to be able to implement their WarpCursor function
<craftyjon>
so that I can pass in arbitrary coordinates and get the cursor moved there. Possibly with the compositor rejecting the call if the coordinates are outside the space I "own"
<craftyjon>
it sounds like we should look harder at Xwayland and see if we can lift some of its functionality into wxWidgets
<kchibisov>
Though, even if you restrict warping it could be abused.
<craftyjon>
those trying to make a more secure system should always be considering how to maintain all existing non-abuse use-cases when they are considering how to prevent abuse
<craftyjon>
some amount of risk of abuse will always be present
<kchibisov>
The point is not about security.
<kchibisov>
The point is that my compositor could warp mouse to follow focus, then you try to warp mouse as well.
<kchibisov>
Yet I as a user will have unusable mouse.
<kchibisov>
I'd rather rely on behavior of my compositor than of an arbitrary application.
<craftyjon>
I don't understand the hypothetical. if the compositor warps the mouse into an application and gives it focus, there should be no problem with that application doing further mouse movements
<craftyjon>
if the compositor warps the mouse out of that application, then of course that application should no longer bea ble to control the mouse.
<kchibisov>
Some applications could force to move the mouse over some other window.
<kchibisov>
Like on macOS, it can warp the mouse between the application windows.
<craftyjon>
presumably that's something the compositor could prevent, right?
<kchibisov>
right, but what you want is a subset of what real world warping could do from my experience.
<zamundaaa[m]>
kchibisov: the proposed protocol / solution to this would be that you can only move the cursor within the surface of your own app and not beyond it
<craftyjon>
^^
<kchibisov>
zamundaaa[m]: but it means that I could move the cursor between windows of my app?
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<kchibisov>
If I have 3 windows owned by the same app, it means that I can warp between them by application means?
<ManMower>
within the surface of, or within the input region of?
<craftyjon>
I would be fine with a solution that only allows warping within the window that has focus, even if my app has multiple windows
<zamundaaa[m]>
kchibisov: It doesn't have to. You could restrict it to stay within one subsurface tree for example
<kchibisov>
zamundaaa: yeah, within one window is absolutery fine.
<craftyjon>
so if I want this useful discussion to have a life beyond IRC today, what's the right place to capture it?
<kchibisov>
And some compositors could allow disabling warping.
<craftyjon>
My understanding is that this warping in pointer-constraints is kind of a side-effect / extra feature of locking the pointer? And that implementing the warping is totally optional
<craftyjon>
would it still be worth creating a new issue for requesting a specific warping API that is not tied to locking a pointer?
<craftyjon>
what I am worried about is opening an issue and having it immediately closed with people saying "this is already possible, use pointer-constraints"
<zamundaaa[m]>
craftyjon: yes, open a new issue for a protocol actually meant for cursor warping
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<zamundaaa[m]>
Compositors don't have to implement that. They could also import the synchronization primitive into $GraphicsApi and do things just like with implicit sync
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<zamundaaa[m]>
Well, properly tracking buffer releases is still not completely trivial
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