marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
<leio>
fwiw, that doesn't mention m2 ultra in any way, though presumably it would be equal or more to do than m2 pro/max?
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<shalokshalom>
Hi there. Early rumors of the M1 platform suggested, that Apple is using dedicated hardware, to improve performance of the x86_64 compatibility layer, Rosetta 2.
<leio>
to correct myself, it is in the first table, but not the separate ones
<shalokshalom>
Now, I am asking: Are there any plans, to utilize that hardware? Does it even exist, or was this a false rumor?
<shalokshalom>
Can we expect any kind of support for x86 hardware accelerated emulation?
<shalokshalom>
Thanks a lot
<sven>
they have a way to enable TSO (total store ordering) to make stores work like they do on x86
<sven>
other than that it’s also a lot of software engineering that went into Rosetta
<jannau>
leio: take the absence as a hint that it's (not yet) supported
<stintel>
is there any documentation on extracting the various firmwares from macOS? like apple/tpmtfw-j415.bin brcmbt4387c2-apple,snake-u.bin etc ?
<sven>
there’s code to do that in the installer and that’s probably the only documentation there is
<jannau>
stintel: asahi_firmware in asahi-installer
<stintel>
thanks!
<mps>
first time I created tarball of firmware from macos
<shalokshalom>
sven: I am not aware about stores within that context.
<shalokshalom>
What is the exact state of running x86 on Asahi, and also about the roadmap for it, please?
<ChaosPrincess>
qemu-system-x64 or whatever it is called exists, but its most likely not what you want :P
<ChaosPrincess>
for fex, you need 4k pages for it to even work, and TSO for it to work faster.
<ChaosPrincess>
tso is in repo, 4k pages is not ready for public use yet
<shalokshalom>
thanks a lot
<marcan>
shalokshalom: we already support TSO and that feature is integrated into FEX, which is the single most important feature for x86 performance
<shalokshalom>
So none as of yet, and unknown as for when, if at all, correct?
<shalokshalom>
Ah, ok, cool.
<shalokshalom>
So the foundation is there and the rest unknown. :)
<ChaosPrincess>
box86 or whatever it is called will never work, because it requires 32 bit arm and m-chips dont do that
<marcan>
there is no "accelerated emulation". there are three (to our knowledge), very specific, minor but useful features
<marcan>
TSO, the flags stuff, and a pre-standard version of what ARM standardized as AFP
<marcan>
it's unclear whether we care to support the latter two, we'll see
<marcan>
TSO matters
<shalokshalom>
There is a new x86 emu software layer on the block, although idk how much it will help
<shalokshalom>
It even seems to be Windows exclusive?
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<ChaosPrincess>
almost all of them would want 4k pages for it to work sanely
<marcan>
also Rosetta isn't particularly fast or efficient, it's just AoT and well tuned for these CPUs. it's the CPUs that are fast, and not dealing with TSO helps.
<shalokshalom>
Oh, and it's not even open source (Cassia)
<ChaosPrincess>
because if you dont have that - you either have to pray that the software is page size agnostic, or emulate the entire mmu which murders your performance
<marcan>
FEX is already much faster for emulating 32-bit x86 because it has a mode to not bother with accurate 80-bit FPU emulation, while Rosetta does some horrible slow software emulation which makes many 32-bit games unplayable
<shalokshalom>
marcan: So you are saying other x86 emulation layers can be comparable speedy and comparably speedy CPUs?
<shalokshalom>
Is there dedicated hardware, to accelerate these operations?
<marcan>
I'm saying FEX is already better than Rosetta at some things
<shalokshalom>
On the Apple silicon
<marcan>
as with everything, there will be things one technology is better at and others it is worse at
<marcan>
stuff gets a lot more complicated without hardware TSO support, e.g. the Windows emulation stuff does a lot of tricks there to try to fake some of it for performance
<marcan>
but we do have hardware TSO so that is moot
<j`ey>
do you know if any bencharks were done with fex+tso?
<marcan>
dunno, "a lot better than without TSO" :p
<j`ey>
:)
<marcan>
FEX isn't very good at TSO emulation yet AIUI
<marcan>
FWIW, I might as well say this now: I have no plans to integrate FEX into Asahi-ALARM
<shalokshalom>
I am talking about running Proton and Steam on the Mac Mini 2020 specifically
<marcan>
making FEX work seamlessly with a distro is a big project and basically uncharted territory, and not something we can spend time on for multiple completely unrelated distros
<marcan>
so when that comes it will be for $next_distro
<shalokshalom>
Oh :(
<marcan>
you can do it yourself on Arch if you want, just don't expect an easy "install package and x86 emu works now"
<shalokshalom>
Yeah, I see.
<marcan>
(and of course anyone is welcome to volunteer do the work for Arch ARM)
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<j`ey>
marcan: what kinda integration do you mean? like opening a .exe and have it open in FEX automatically?
<jannau>
using native libraries if possible (thunks) and having the x86 chroot easily available I guess
<j`ey>
I see
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<shalokshalom>
Is it possible to run Proton games?
<j`ey>
I have no reason to use FEX, but it seems interesting
<shalokshalom>
I consider running a Mac Mini as a gaming streaming machine, and possibly about creating a DIY handheld around it's mainboard, if that is feasible, both hard and software wise.
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<shalokshalom>
I interpret the above lines, part particularly that one about $next_distro, that Asahi is never going to provide an easy to use x86_64 emulation?
<shalokshalom>
Or am I reading this wrong?
<j`ey>
you read it wrong
<j`ey>
making FEX work seamlessly is not going to happen with the current Arch-based distro
<shalokshalom>
Ah. So Asahi is going to use....?
<j`ey>
something else :P
<shalokshalom>
And what does it take now, that differentiates it from 'seamless' please?
<jannau>
there was someone on youtube transplanting the mac mini board into 3d printed case around the size of an ipad mini display, I don't remember what happened with the power supply
<shalokshalom>
Aha, ok. So something independendly developed, based on LFS? Gentoo? *speculating*
<jannau>
just wait
<shalokshalom>
jannau: sounds great
<shalokshalom>
sure, thanks
<jannau>
you have to configure and install everything yourself for FEX running well and it will be a considerable effort
<shalokshalom>
Hnn. I have yet to look into that
<shalokshalom>
The only thing I am confused about, is how this is going to be different for different users?
<j`ey>
shalokshalom: it's not independent, no
<shalokshalom>
Is this a one time effort, for the complete community
<shalokshalom>
Or do we all have to configure FEX ourselves
<shalokshalom>
Like, we can simply create a package, once this is done, I assume?
<shalokshalom>
Sorry, I probably just fail to see the source of complexity
<ChaosPrincess>
there are multiple parts that you-the-x86-user will most likely want
<ChaosPrincess>
like, fex, proton, some way to set up proton prefix, a x86 chroot or hangover if that thing ever releases, 4k kernel
<jannau>
no, it's not as simple as providing a package. if that would be the only thing it would already be solved
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<nsklaus>
so, are we still waiting on release of macos13.5 to get a new updated release of asahi, that support m2pro ?
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<nsklaus>
is this shaping up already ? was there any information related to the next update that got out ?
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<ChaosPrincess>
marcan: w.r.t touch id pairing, are fake modules a realistic enough threat? And instead of having symmetric auth couldnt they have done whatever they do with keyboards so any apple module will work?
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<BenTheTechGuy>
Is it possible to reboot into an OS after being booted into a different one? It would be great if I could somehow choose between macOS and Linux at startup instead of having to hold down the power button to get into 1TR every time I want to use macOS.
<BenTheTechGuy>
Even better would be for this to somehow be integrated into m1n1 or one of the later stages of normal boot
<BenTheTechGuy>
similar to choosing Linux as the startup OS from inside macOS or 1TR
<BenTheTechGuy>
what I'm looking for is a way to switch what OS you want to run *after* booting into one
<j`ey>
I thought this tool could do that
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<jannau>
I think `asahi-bless --next $boot_volume` will just change the next boot
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<karpouzi>
it vaguely looks like you run asahi-bless --next 'uuid' to get the uuid stated to be the next boot volume
<BenTheTechGuy>
oh, awesome
<karpouzi>
do not count on that being correct tho :/
<j`ey>
karpouzi: jannau said the same thing so.. if youre wrong, youre both wrong :P
<BenTheTechGuy>
it would still be cool if there was something that could select an OS after one is already booted into
<j`ey>
this does it?
<BenTheTechGuy>
this changes what the next boot will me
<karpouzi>
wow, i think jannau sent it while i was writing
<j`ey>
yeah, so do this and then reboot
<BenTheTechGuy>
I know
<BenTheTechGuy>
this is cool
<BenTheTechGuy>
what I'm saying is
<BenTheTechGuy>
it would also be cool if there was something that, after "Asahi Linux" is booted by iBoot, inside of m1n1, u-boot, GRUB, or something
<BenTheTechGuy>
there could be a menu to select between macOS and Linux
<jannau>
you have to reboot to boot a different os, even the boot optioons boot picker does that
<BenTheTechGuy>
yes
<BenTheTechGuy>
I was simply wondering if it was possible to do it without rebooting
<jannau>
no
<BenTheTechGuy>
ok, thanks
<BenTheTechGuy>
I'm glad that the bless tool (allegedly) has that --next option
<karpouzi>
it doesn't seem like bless can do anything else
<karpouzi>
keep in mind the readme on asahi-nvram: May or may not result in you having to perform a dfu restore
<BenTheTechGuy>
yeah, it would be nice if it were more polished
<karpouzi>
btw did marcan get his hands on an m2 ultra for testing?
<karpouzi>
i may be able to borrow one next week
<j`ey>
he got a mac pro, dunno if that has m2 ultra?
<karpouzi>
oh yeah that would have it
<j`ey>
(got == ordered)
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<jannau>
one of the fedora asahi people will ge a m2 ultra mac studio
<karpouzi>
i'm still really perplexed how the memory is architectured on that chipset
<karpouzi>
perplexed by*
<karpouzi>
ultra fusion is basically infinity fabric right
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<karpouzi>
main thing is that nobody seems to know what the gpu bus width is
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<ChaosPrincess>
karpouzi: that warning is more about the nvram tool. And i use bless a lot and havent yet screwed up my machine
<ChaosPrincess>
BenTheTechGuy: the security on those machines make it impossible, even boot picker is faking it with boot-next
<ChaosPrincess>
karpouzi: ultra fusion is slightly different, infinity fabric gives you almost-numa, while those interleave accesses so there is absolutely no numa
<karpouzi>
hmm, will have to think about that
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<karpouzi>
thanks. i guess the difference between naples- and rome-era infinity fabric has me confused, because naples was _actually_ 4 numa nodes
<ChaosPrincess>
karpouzi: wrt memory, each lpddr chip seems to be 64b wide.
<ChaosPrincess>
But no idea whats the memory controller to gpu width
<amarioguy>
ChaosPrincess: this is less so security and more so because iBoot was basically entirely designed around booting from one volume, one partition, one OS, and apple's solution to multi booting is effectively a total hack based on black magic lol
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<ChaosPrincess>
In theory we can replace the boot picker
<ChaosPrincess>
set a special linux as default, then have it set boot-next based on user input and reboot
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<r1k0>
Hello, I tried running the installer on an M2 Max but it's not supported yet. Just curious, what are the reasons as opposed to the normal M2? (is it the number of CPUs?)
<amarioguy>
sven: mainly just the whole way it has to set the next boot partition and then fully reboot to do it, instead of having iboot render the UI for the bootpicker, and set the variables then and there followed by booting lol
<amarioguy>
i mean to be fair i could be wrong and that was an intentional design decision rather than a hack, but this is just based on what i know about iboot
<r1k0>
j`ey: ok thx, I naively assumed the hardware was identical between M2 and M2 Max (beside the nb of cores)
<ChaosPrincess>
Nah, non-pro are glorified ipad chips while pro/max/ultra are full desktop ones
<karpouzi>
m2 ultra is also so tba it's not even on the chart :D
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<karpouzi>
er should i say "m2 ultra mac studio/pro"
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<sven>
amarioguy: having iboot render a complex UI sounds like a large attack surface in a critical boot stage
<sven>
it looks rather intentional to me
<sven>
and iboot had to change a lot to accommodate all this boot policy stuff anyway