marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<alyssa>
10:54 <shalokshalom> I am talking about running Proton and Steam on the Mac Mini 2020 specifically
<alyssa>
This isn't ready yet
<alyssa>
But it's definitely on a lot of people's wishlists :~)
<alyssa>
Lot of missing pieces to get a nice gaming experience on these machines.
<alyssa>
But there's definitely active work on (especially) the FEX and Mesa sides to get there
nsklaus was banned on #asahi by ChanServ [nsklaus!*@*]
nsklaus was kicked from #asahi by ChanServ [You were warned. Nice try moving your trolling to Reddit, but it still counts.]
<ChaosPrincess>
:munch:
<marcan>
choice quote: "they are quite hostile. and politicaly forcing their views on everyone too. many asahi devs are wokes, leftists, or even worse. they do not tolerate anything that doesn't go their way, i'd say a slight tendency to despotism."
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<marcan>
anyway, I'm done with him.
<j`ey>
seems reasonable
<alyssa>
can confirm, am a work lefitst
* ChaosPrincess
is a card carrying woke, leftist, communist and whatever else maga chuds hate
<alyssa>
leftist
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<leio>
Without any kind of promises or otherwise, what would be the optimistic/realistic timeline to get a M2 Max macbook to be usable in some shape or form? How long would I have to endure OSX (and if too long, the scary thing is I might get used to it or something...) if I were to get one, keeping in mind that I don't mind getting my hands dirty a bit with not yet fully ready patches and such, or perhaps some coding, albeit somewhat time constrained. Trying to pick out
<leio>
what laptop to get (Mac or otherwise) for some travel. My understanding is that there's no display support yet and such?
<ah->
heya, i'm hitting a regression with the latest mesa-asahi-edge-23.3.0_pre20230725-1-aarch64.pkg.tar.zst, when I run nomachine client for work I get a garbled window that vaguely resembles what the contents should be: https://i.snipboard.io/MPu78q.jpg
<ChaosPrincess>
iirc, if you can get your hands very dirty you can hack together something that supports everything in m1 max except wifi
<ah->
when I downgrade back to mesa-asahi-edge-23.2.0_pre20230706-1-aarch64.pkg.tar.zst it runs perfectly again: https://i.snipboard.io/jf2s35.jpg
<ChaosPrincess>
but obligatory no support, its not released, we will not make it, we will not help make it
<j`ey>
ah-: is that xwayland?
<j`ey>
ChaosPrincess: (m2 max, I assume, not m1)
<chadmed>
"do not tolerate anything that doesnt go their way" laughably ironic considering he could not stop pissing and moaning about how "slow" speakers/t6020/whatever are lmfao l8r sk8r
<ah->
j`ey: it's a qt5 app, and it might come with some weird bundled qt, so it's possible. do you know how to check?
<ChaosPrincess>
j`ey: i mean (everything supported in m1 max) - wifi
<j`ey>
ChaosPrincess: aha
<chadmed>
leio: a lightly-used m1 pro/max 14" is probably your best bet given the use case
<j`ey>
ah-: not sure how to check
<j`ey>
ah-: I saw someone show a similar screenshot, I think they said it was in xwayland, thats why
<leio>
If I went for M2 Max, it'd be converted to my daily driver once linux is good on it; otherwise I'd aim for a Mac Air or something
<leio>
I do not generally use Wifi, that'd be only for when on travel in which case I could boot into OSX for now
<ChaosPrincess>
you probably underestimate how crap would this machine be to use w/o wifi
<ah->
j`ey: do you know if/how I can report this properly? i don't want to waste anyones time with user support, but if I can help figure out what's wrong i'd be happy to debug a bit
<ah->
haven't followed asahi that closely recently, just been a very happy user :)
<leio>
it would presumably require an ethernet dongle
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<ChaosPrincess>
well, yea, and its a laptop, so you essentially turn your laptop into an overpriced desktop
<mps>
leio: I mostly use these m1 macbooks with usb eternet dongles
<ChaosPrincess>
imo, not being able to just grab the laptop from a desk and go sit on a couch or sth is a non starter :P
<j`ey>
ah-: you could also post your setup if you felt it was different
<chadmed>
ChaosPrincess: especially if travelling
<leio>
I don't have a couch, but I do have ethernet in each room :D
<mps>
ChaosPrincess: I do right this, grab laptop and go to garden ;-)
<chadmed>
ill be taking this thing in to work and uni tomorrow for the first time in a while actually
<j`ey>
ah-: read the comment about ASAHI_MESA_DEBUG=nocompress
<ChaosPrincess>
leio: so, you now have to replug ethernet every time you move, and you cant move between rooms if you are doing something w/o losing ethernet
<mps>
I have mdev script which changes network on plug events
<j`ey>
could get a wifi dongle
<ChaosPrincess>
and here j`ey comes with a good idea
<ChaosPrincess>
do that
<j`ey>
^_^
<leio>
for when out of my home, that sounds good; what's the blocker on wifi - completely different hw?
<chadmed>
do they do usb-c wifi dongles? is that a thing?
<ah->
ah perfect j`ey, that looks exactly like what I'm seeing. and seems like lina is debugging already :)
<ChaosPrincess>
well, i read your message and thought "right, wifi dongles exist"
<chadmed>
totally forgot even usb type a ones are a thing
<ChaosPrincess>
what would be funny and very cursed is getting a sdio dongle and shoving it into the sd card slot
<ChaosPrincess>
does the sd slot on these even support sdio?
<leio>
I'm not sure it's worth getting a Mac mini/Studio + some Mac air instead of just Mac Pro then
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<leio>
but yes, normally it'd be an expensive desktop with external monitors and keyboard attach (some of which might be problematic still on thunderbolt and hdmi)
<chadmed>
having both is pretty valuable ive found
<leio>
not a huge fan of maintaining necessary work data presence on multiple things
* alyssa
doesn't understand why anyone would get a Mac Pro
<alyssa>
(over the Studio)
<ChaosPrincess>
alyssa: i believe the poster meant a mbp, but shortened it wrong
<leio>
yes, macbook pro
<leio>
I don't have any use for the PCIE slots or whatever the pro thing gives over studio
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<leio>
so one goal is to have something for the few times I travel or go to events, another is to replace my slightly loud and heat producing zen2 desktop with something as good or beefier that would run silent and cool
<leio>
sounds like M2 Max isn't a bad option already then, just now got to figure out what then doesn't work on M1 Max mbp yet, when I know wifi then works there but not M2 max :)
<ChaosPrincess>
i wouldnt replace zen2, but thats just my opinion.
<alyssa>
oh, yes, I see why people would get mbp then
<leio>
I've been staring at that particular wiki page for 3 days now :)
<cy8aer>
I understood that the Mac Pro (yes I mean it, and for me it does not makes sense too, and I do not want to have it if I would have the money) does not support graphics cards on the pcie slots with macOS. Is that a macOS feature only? If I have the drivers for the card it should work with linux, right?
<ChaosPrincess>
we dont know yet
<ChaosPrincess>
all other macs have slightly broken pcie that does not support a certain memory mapping type commonly used by gpus
<ChaosPrincess>
mac pro has a special pcie controller that is not the same as on other models, so it might be just a driver issue at that point
<cy8aer>
ah, I see. I thought that pcie is generic what you connect it with.
<ChaosPrincess>
its generic unless you break it
<ChaosPrincess>
*cough* arm *cough*
<cy8aer>
🙂
<leio>
So what I gather from the wiki page is that for M2 Max mbp I might need to do software graphics for a bit, I don't know what a DCP is in this context, and I don't read out whether external HDMI or DisplayPort displays would work
<ChaosPrincess>
DCP = actual display controller support instead of just running in framebuffer mode
<leio>
so that's one of the hands dirty bit for M2 Max for grabbing the WIP bits or so
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<ChaosPrincess>
pmuch
<ChaosPrincess>
i think even getting it installed is a "get hands dirty" bit rn. not hard, but still
<leio>
right, fortunately I have my 21 years of installing Gentoo, I'll manage personally if it's possible in theory
<ChaosPrincess>
it takes 21 years to install gentoo? what are you compiling it on, a 286? :P
<leio>
does Mac studio or mini M2 Max give more power thanks to more thermal headroom or such stuff? I need to compile rust stuff a lot :)
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<mps>
ChaosPrincess: :)
<ar>
I've only used gentoo for 15 years :(
<leio>
I started with a 166Mhz Pentium MMX, that was a big powerhouse, took only 1-2 weeks
<ChaosPrincess>
leio: there is no mini with a m2 max, only a pro
<leio>
oh right, yeah, Pro is fine too, I'm not convinced about Max, just in mbp the price diff didn't appear huge
<leio>
supposedly just more GPU and memory bandwidth, latter of which I'm not sure if is useful or not when you don't go above the RAM limit for the Pro
<ChaosPrincess>
the extra bandwidth can only be used by gpu, which you sound like you dont really care about
<ChaosPrincess>
so, its only capacity that you get
<leio>
so that sounds like there's no point in getting the Max over Pro in mbp either then.
<alyssa>
a lot of GPU workloads are bandwidth-limited, so more b/w without more RAM *can* improve gpu performance
<alyssa>
(but that will depend on the specific workload)
<ChaosPrincess>
if that helps you pick - i also thought "who needs gpu, i just compile stuff" when picking my m1pro, but then everyone collectively caught ai brainworms and oops, i found myself with python processes claiming to use 40gb of ram.
<leio>
my workloads are GNOME, occasional dota2 and some gstreamer stuff
<leio>
currently I do 64GB RAM on my main box
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<j`ey>
will dota2 work?
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<eiln>
all i can say is max out ram
<ChaosPrincess>
^this
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<leio>
it's so occasional I can just reboot to OSX or something for it, just... one day directly would be nice :)
<ChaosPrincess>
and i know its a bit of a first world take, but why do the 8gb models even exist in $current_year
<j`ey>
I got the 8gb model :(
<j`ey>
(not my choice)
<leio>
they exist so that the hardware manufacturer doing soldered RAM can charge you an arm and a leg extra while telling you it's a cheap thing otherwise
<chadmed>
ChaosPrincess: it was an idiotic decision by apple, so many people i know have been burnt by macos maxxing out 8gb of ram constantly
<chadmed>
especially on the m1 mini
<chadmed>
but yeah its a decoy product
<ChaosPrincess>
my work laptop is a 8gb model, i hate that stupid thing with a passion.
<ChaosPrincess>
esp with teams constantly saying "nice ram you have there"
<chadmed>
my work laptop is 32gb and its still not enough thanks to teams, outlook and hyper-v
<chadmed>
horrible stack
<leio>
so M2 Pro would max out at 32GB
<chadmed>
teams preview "less ram use" my enemy in satan you are literally using more ram than the old version at any given time
<leio>
and then there's the SSD money pit, whereas with mbp I can't throw in my own one; which makes me worry if 1TB is even OK for dual-boot (OSX would need to house XCode stuff too)
<ChaosPrincess>
i have 1tb, its fine
<ChaosPrincess>
xcode takes 25-ish gb
<leio>
whenever I got an xcode upgrade on the work mac mini, I get to delete my gstreamer build stuff in order for it to have 40GB free space to become agreeable to perform the upgrade, but I need to check how tiny the SSD was there, might be even less than 256G
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<ChaosPrincess>
right, that.
<leio>
and I literally have nothing else on there than some iOS dev
<leio>
in terms of CPU power, a Mac mini M2 Pro would be equal to mbp M2 Pro, or there's thermal envelope and such considerations making the mini beefier?
<ChaosPrincess>
i bet you will not notice
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<leio>
GPU memory bandwidth is the same between 30-core and 38-core GPU M2 Max, right? Or actually the 38-core is needed to allow 96GB RAM, suggesting difference there?
<_jannau__>
for mostly CPU-only workloads there should be no difference, if you start using every single unit on the SoC at the same time there might but I'm not sure how much better the mini's cooling system it
<alyssa>
i have an 8gb mini and i'm happy with it
<alyssa>
shrug
<_jannau__>
if you upgrade a mac mini m2 pro to 12 CPU cores + 32GB ram, you can by the mac studio m2 max for the same price
<leio>
looking at mbp's right now
<_jannau__>
memory bandwidth just depends on the chip, not on the amount of ram
<leio>
yeah, chip difference being M2 Max 30-core GPU or 38-core GPU
<_jannau__>
I suppose only offering 96GB with the full GPU is a way to keep the number of configs down
<leio>
or put otherwise - is there a benefit in GPU bandwidth on picking 38-core GPU, in addition to more GPU cores and being able to select 96GB RAM
<leio>
ok, so no different on the bandwidth there
<leio>
and M2 Ultra is pretty much 2x M2 Max on a single SoC?
<ChaosPrincess>
something like that yes
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<_jannau__>
it's possible (but unlikely) that 30 core's can't use use the full 400 GB/s bandwidth, all CPUs cores on the m1 max have less than 400 GB/s mem bandwidth
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<tobhe>
14
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<leio>
Sorry, had to walk away for a bit.
<leio>
But otherwise I just want to thank you all for your patience and information and I'll continue thinking about my needs and see from there, might have follow-up questions later though :)
<leio>
It's kind of sad we need to get Apple hardware for good ARM laptops/desktops, but I guess it is what it is when they make the really only sensible hardware with that CPU family
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