ChanServ changed the topic of #dri-devel to: <ajax> nothing involved with X should ever be unable to find a bar
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<i509vcb> Wild idea that popped into my mind. If we had a Vulkan implementation that implements all the GPU stuff in compute, it would theoretically be possible to get a "working" Vulkan driver with just working compute and then be able to slowly transition over to using the actual fixed function GPU hardware?
<i509vcb> Of course the devil is in the details and it sounds like a lot of work
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<HdkR> Sounds like what the RISC-V GPU people are trying to accomplish
<i509vcb> yeah I have heard of the RISC-V GPU and saw the XDC 22 presentation on the idea
<i509vcb> The idea here being less about compute only and more for speeding up driver development to get to a point where something is usable before doing the fun optimization by using the proper graphics hardware
<HdkR> Writing a compute implementation and also an implementatino that uses the hardware is likely slower than just using the hardware.
<HdkR> Do the work once instead of twice.
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<i509vcb> yeah I guess that is a practical issue with the idea, you'll need to do the work to use hardware at some point
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<DemiMarie> HdkR i509vcb: Compute-only implementations are necessary if one wants to use Vulkan Compute in the HPC space, since HPC GPUs only have compute and no fixed function at all.
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<MrCooper> reading zmike's blog about readback, I was somewhat surprised that Vulkan doesn't allow readback from presented swapchain images (since there's explicit sync for the presentation anyway), but I was very surprised that it doesn't guarantee presented swapchain image contents being preserved, as that precludes any buffer age based optimizations
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<Company> MrCooper: Vulkan has a flag on swapchain creation about retaining contents, no?
<Company> it's actually written very wonky
<Company> which talks about readback in the info box
<Company> MrCooper: but Vulkan handles this somewhat differently, in that there's https://registry.khronos.org/vulkan/specs/1.3-extensions/man/html/VkPresentRegionsKHR.html which you pass to vkQueuePresent()
<Company> so you can essentially implement buffer age, but without any guarantees about readback
<Company> ie the swapchain implementation could give you an image with undefined contents, you only draw the section that changed, pass the present region and then the swapchain only updates those
<Company> essentially allowing you to implement an X server with everyone drawing to the root window
<Company> and expose events only updating the changed regions
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<MrCooper> are you sure that doesn't require the presented swapchain image to have complete valid contents? Because Wayland does, so if this doesn't, it'd be tricky to support efficiently on Wayland
<Company> I think the Wayland implementation can just guarantee that
<Company> but a different implementation doesn't have to
<Company> I read the specification so that I only need to update the changed regions if I use incremental present
<Company> which means a Wayland implementation would need to guarantee that contents in the swapchain buffers stay unmodified
<Company> that's how the GTK Vulkan renderer works fwiw
<Company> ie we only update the change region (or something suitable, might be the bounding box of all changes) and send that region over
<Company> so we assume everything outside of that stays unmodified
<Company> and so far it works
<MrCooper> so you're relying on something which apparently isn't guaranteed by Vulkan
<Company> as I said, that's questionable
<Company> and depends on how you want to read the spec
<Company> "Applications should set this value to VK_TRUE if they do not expect to read back the content of presentable images before presenting them or after reacquiring them"
<Company> which reads to me as "set this to false and you can readback the image"
<Company> MrCooper: btw, that approach in GTK seems to work on Windows (and X), too
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<Company> fwiw, the other stuff is correct
<Company> not sure why you need to spam present/acquire though - just acquire all the images there are until you got the one you want?
<Company> hrm okay, maybe that breaks down because the last one only becomes acquirable again after you present a new one
<Company> my assumption was always that the compositor may want to operate on the image, ie do layout transitions, while it uses it
<Company> and such a compositor would make it non-accessible during that time because it's in an unknown state
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