ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<SardemFF7>
sad
<dottedmag>
link to rasterman's email definitely goes to bookmarks, to give people who don't understand why Wayland is done this way
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<DemiMarie>
bl4ckb0ne: gotcha
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<SardemFF7>
well, “closed” is a big word, some people will ignore it :-)
<ManMower>
it is undead.
<SardemFF7>
and I’m sad for them
<dottedmag>
killfiles exist for a reason
<SardemFF7>
also, I love the “yes, in this case it won’t work” (monitor hotplug) when we’re trying to tell them we can actually solve it with our solution
<ManMower>
yeah... my expectation of hotplug differs from Igor's significantly.
<ManMower>
as does my experience under X11
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<danieldg>
as someone who has a monitor at (0,0) that is normally not turned on, absolute positioning like that would always be wrong. Thankfully even X11 could ignore that, usually, and wayland just ignores it better
<dottedmag>
It's sad to see how much misguided effort goes into these e-mails.
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<dottedmag>
And very sad to see that the authors either don't understand or refuse to admit that these e-mails won't change the direction of Wayland development in the way they wish.
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<ManMower>
presenting a single valid reason for client driven absolute window positioning that can't be readily dismissed as harmful to a coherent user experience would be a good start. thiago calling this out as an x/y problem is pretty much where the thread ended for me. yup. it is.
<ManMower>
but I guess now I'm wasting bandwidth on IRC about it instead of on the mailing list. so perhaps I'll honor the spirit of the thread closure. :)
<i509VCB>
Avoiding digging ourselves into an X11 shaped hole is partially why "X11 does it" doesn't seem to be a valid argument for anything here
<dottedmag>
"Documentation says window will appear at (100, 100)" was funny.
<ManMower>
it's important if you're writing a screen scraper.
<emersion>
hey, i have this use-case where my program opens 50 windows and arranges them in a heart shape on screen
<ManMower>
out.
<emersion>
where do i submit heart-shaped-window-layout-v1?
<llyyr>
getting nostalgia about running keygens on windows xp that played background music, had no borders and couldn't be dragged
<dottedmag>
windows 95 and an app that produced "snow" on screen that was gathering into piles on the window borders.
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<dottedmag>
llyyr: fast forward, and now they demand ransom instead of producing keys
<ManMower>
let's not forget xroach
<emersion>
ah, didn't know about that one, nice!
<dottedmag>
surely xroach deserves to be ported to be a gnome shell extension
* emersion
resists to the urge to rewrite it for Sway
<ManMower>
these are good ideas.
<llyyr>
wayroach
<dottedmag>
emersion: not so fun with tiling layouts
<emersion>
hm, true
<danieldg>
if you animated tiling changes it would be
<MrCooper>
dottedmag: sounds like xsnow :)
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<DemiMarie>
What would it take to support rootless XWayland without requiring special compositor support? https://github.com/talex5/virtwl-wayland-proxy can do it already (with the stock X server, no less)!
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<kennylevinsen>
But from a practical perspective, an important question is what counts as an acceptable feature level. Certain X11 features require e.g. free window position control and free access to position of other windows...
<DemiMarie>
Which of those do real-world applications actually use?
<kennylevinsen>
Being the wild west it was, it was all used by real world applications. There is of course a subset of use cases that would work without, but no idea how useful it would be
<kennylevinsen>
when applications were written with no restrictions in mind it's hard to slap them on after the fact and not break things
<i509VCB>
Given there are still apps which ignore the ICCCM and EWMH I imagine something is not going to work right over xwayland
<DemiMarie>
kennylevinsen: In the virtualization use-case, exposing X11 is not an option, which means that *some* breakage is unavoidable. Indeed, that is intentional: you do not want xinput to be able to gather all keystrokes for all VMs, for example!
<DemiMarie>
i509vcb: what apps can you think of?
<i509VCB>
Java probably
<i509VCB>
I know that the swing x11 stuff was written before the ICCCM
<DemiMarie>
One reason I want to switch Qubes to Wayland is that right now there are some bugs that are almost impossible to fix without being an X11 expert.
<DemiMarie>
For Java, I wonder if the solution is to monkeypatch the JVM 🙂
<i509VCB>
Mixin the JVM, ah yes one thing I do actually recall seeing someone do
<i509VCB>
it was concerning to say the least
<i509VCB>
You'd probably just need to patch openjdk to be honest
<DemiMarie>
Yeah
<i509VCB>
good luck getting it upstreamed though
<DemiMarie>
New OpenJDK versions will eventually support Wayland natively. Old ones can just be special-cased.
<i509VCB>
Yeah wakefield is probably going to take a bit of time
<i509VCB>
I think they need to disconnect from GLX on Linux and use EGL
<i509VCB>
but on Qubes you won't have GLX or EGL to be fair
<DemiMarie>
At least we aren’t in the situation that Wine is in. They have to figure out the behavior of a bunch of legacy Windows applications, most of which are not open source and cannot be included in CI!
<i509VCB>
I imagine Wayland would happen after Valhalla though
<i509VCB>
if Valhalla ever is completed
<DemiMarie>
And you might be surprised; Intel iGPUs support SR-IOV and it might be possible to support that in Qubes.
<i509VCB>
DemiMarie: if AMD releases a consumer gpu with SR-IOV I'll be in line on release day lol
<i509VCB>
Ah wishful thinking
<DemiMarie>
i509VCB: I think they are making Valhally way more complex than they need to. Much simpler would be to just copy C# structs and P/Invoke.
<i509VCB>
Well I'm not sure you can exactly copy those over