ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<DemiMarie>
Anyone ever (jokingly) imagined a “foo over Wayland” protocol? (No, please do not actually implement such a thing!)
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<wb9688>
Lol
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<DemiMarie>
Tunneling X11 over Wayland might help with some race conditions in XWayland, but that is the only use-case I can think of.
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<DemiMarie>
Unless someone wants to make some silly protocol for the heck of it, then who am I to judge?
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<emersion>
PSA: weston beta today
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<ifreund>
dammit, libwayland destroys clients before reading all events from the socket if poll returns EPOLLHUP
<ifreund>
that explains the race I've been poking at on and off for a while
<ifreund>
I can my client sendmsg() before closing the fd/exiting, but the server sometimes never recieves it
<ifreund>
happens pretty consistently for me if my system is under heavy load, transcoding a video or something
<DemiMarie>
Does libweston have advantages over wlroots, and could it be implemented on top of wlroots?
<LaserEyess>
I think wlroots is a lot lower level, so "yes" if someone is willing to go through the immense effort of refactoring libweston to use wlroots...
<LaserEyess>
but why
<LaserEyess>
I think weston has value in being an independent implementation
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<daniels>
DemiMarie: it does, and right now it could not
<DemiMarie>
daniels: what are those advantages? (Genuinely curious)
<DemiMarie>
LaserEyess: I agree about independent implementations having value. It just seems that almost nobody in the desktop space is using libweston.
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<daniels>
DemiMarie: broadly speaking, the differences is that libweston is more efficient at using hardware blocks, whilst wlroots is easier to use
<daniels>
wlroots is reworking its internals to make it easier to use hardware blocks, and libweston is getting a better API, so they're slowly converging in that sense
<kennylevinsen>
yeah wlroots only uses primary and cursor planes until libliftoff work gets merged
<kennylevinsen>
Weston is way ahead of us there
<LaserEyess>
it does sort of make sense that libweston would be more useful to non-desktop users for efficient hardware usage
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<DemiMarie>
daniels: I am surprised by you saying that wlroots is easier to use. My understanding was that wlroots had a more capable, lower-level API, but not an easier to use one.
<DemiMarie>
daniels kennylevinsen: do you see wlroots and libweston eventually having the roughly the same feature set, to the point that which one to use is a matter of personal preference?
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<daniels>
I think wlroots has more rough edges, but libweston’s are sharper
<bl4ckb0ne>
wlroots is pretty easy to use to get something viable, look at how big tinywl is
<DemiMarie>
Would you mind explaining?
<daniels>
they could converge - nothing is impossible - but there is an ergonomy cost in trying to be all things you all people
<DemiMarie>
bl4ckb0ne: to me, “easy to use” means that I could start from nothing. If I did not have tinywl I would have been lost.
<DemiMarie>
daniels: agreed
<daniels>
bl4ckb0ne: westiny is really small too! but that’s much less interesting than being real-world useful
<bl4ckb0ne>
didnt know about westiny
<daniels>
DemiMarie: to be completely honest, I’m on holiday in France and trying to not be on IRC, but I’m sure others could help expand, or there’s nothing better than taking both and playing around with them
<DemiMarie>
daniels: then get off and enjoy your holiday 🙂
<bl4ckb0ne>
enjoy the country and dont mind the french :D
<daniels>
hahaha, merci
<DemiMarie>
I am mostly curious because it seems that the desktop space uses wlroots while the embedded space uses weston.
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<i509VCB>
Although smithay isn't as large, there are some embedded users and some very jagged compositors in the works
<i509VCB>
I'm curious if mutter is used outside the desktop
<any1>
There's also MIR, that seems to be targetting embedded now
<DemiMarie>
i509vcb: any users you can name?
<i509VCB>
cmeissl I know for sure
<i509VCB>
There was another I can't remember off head
<DemiMarie>
I wonder if there should be some sort of window border manager protocol.
<any1>
And today I learned that MIR has implemented a bunch of wlroots' protocols so they can even run wayvnc and wf-recorder... It's a strange world we live in
<DemiMarie>
Yeah, it seems that wlroots is becoming a de facto standard on the desktop.
<i509VCB>
wlcs has been nice so far, mir does have that nice thing
<i509VCB>
We even use wlcs in smithay to test things (although there are a lot of tests)
<DemiMarie>
<i509VCB> "I'm curious if mutter is used..." <- I doubt it. Mutter is controversial, to put it mildly.
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<DemiMarie>
It does not support xdg-decoration, for one.
<i509VCB>
Well that seems to be a settled topic here at least
<i509VCB>
Not really going to get much from further discussion
<DemiMarie>
i509VCB: What does?
<i509VCB>
Mutter and xdg-decoration
<DemiMarie>
Yeah. Mutter is within its rights to not support it, but it makes some stuff quite annoying.
<i509VCB>
Tis reality
<DemiMarie>
Yup
<DemiMarie>
This would actually be a case where a rootless compositor with a Wayland backend could be useful 🙂
<i509VCB>
I've considered attempting that, but it makes little sense without a way to intercept app launch
<DemiMarie>
Yeah
<DemiMarie>
One challenge in Qubes is figuring out how to change the current protocol to fit Wayland. The current GUI protocol has absolute positions all over the place.
<DemiMarie>
Yet another is that libdecoration is not accessible (yuck).
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<pac85>
Are there currently any rootless wayland compositors? I attempted making my own with and X backend some time ago
<pac85>
It didn't get far because I was doing everything from scratch (and I didn't spend that much time on it) thinking that wlroots and libweston wouldn't let me do what I needed
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<danieldg>
rootless is an X term, what did you actually want?
<danieldg>
very minimal compositors exist (like wlroots tinywl)
<DemiMarie>
pac85: There is a very minimal one I made for Qubes OS.
<DemiMarie>
danieldg: is there a better term for “seamless mode”?
<pac85>
DemiMarie: interesting, is it publicly available?
<pac85>
danieldg: I mean one that doesn't actually do any compositing or window management and instead just forwardes requests to something like X ot another wayland compositor
<danieldg>
pac85: so maybe a wayland proxy?
<pac85>
Yes but I don't know if it can be considered a proxy if it runs on top of X or something else, it would be more of a compatibility layer
<DemiMarie>
pac85: the source code is on GitHub (https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-wayland) but unless you intend to use it as a Qubes OS GUI agent you will need to do lots of changes.
<DemiMarie>
(I would edit it but the edit would not propogate back to IRC)
<danieldg>
cage also does that iirc
<pac85>
Mmm definitely gonna look into that then
<pac85>
Btw love that it is written in rust, I chose to write mine in c for some reason
<pac85>
Mmm but cage only works for one app
<pac85>
I mean a server that pretends to be a full wayland compositor with xdg-desktop-shell and everything
<pac85>
Perhaps I should give another attempt at my old project, perhaps starting over but with rust. My usecase was to sandbox apps under X
<i509VCB>
it so happens Demi was looking for something like that
<DemiMarie>
Yup!
<DemiMarie>
pac85: Curious: why use X on the host instead of Wayland?
<pac85>
DemiMarie: wayland lacks some protocols that make it annoying to use for me, lack of tearing updates is a big one
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<DemiMarie>
pac85: why is this annoying?
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<pac85>
Sorry mi irc client crashed
<pac85>
DemiMarie: I was saying, it is annoying for me because for examole hotkeys won't work, also I like to play games sometimes and I like to run thme with as little latency ad possible so by having tearing which waykand doesn't allow rn
<DemiMarie>
pac85: Is the difference noticeable?
<pac85>
DemiMarie: Yes absolutely
<DemiMarie>
pac85: that is surprising!
<pac85>
You are talking about tearjnf vs no tearjng right?
<pac85>
Fulm vsync is super high latency for me, mailbox is better bur is also somewhat stuttery
<pac85>
Full vsync*
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<pac85>
I don't mind latency in general desktop usage
<pac85>
Not too much at least if it is within 2 ~frames
<pac85>
Also being not 1:1 compatinle means many smaller apps can't be ported and I would have to switch to alternatives
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<pac85>
Nut still I'd like to be able to have security when I want it which is why I put some effort into "waylandx"
<pac85>
I guess it would be some kind like the best of both worlds in many ways
<pac85>
However despite making a wayland compositor from scratch seemed easy at first the amount of extentions needed for real apps somehwat underwhelmed me especially because I often didn't know what I was missing and I ended up loosing motivation on that project