ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput | register your nick to speak
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<DemiMarie>
Is it time to officially deprecate the standalone X server, as opposed to XWayland? Asking here because the Xorg channels are dead.
<DemiMarie>
Right now it seems to be practically unmaintained.
<soreau>
#xorg-devel seems to be the place
<DemiMarie>
Mailing list or IRC?
<DemiMarie>
The IRC channel had basically no activity when I was a part of it.
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<bl4ckb0ne>
what about devs thats needs to set the position of a window
<DemiMarie>
bl4ckb0ne: I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or serious
<DemiMarie>
Also, what would it take to go to a “bring your own X server” model, where Flatpaks and Snaps that use X11 run their own X server and the compositor considers it untrusted?
<bl4ckb0ne>
i was being sarcastic sorry
<DemiMarie>
Apology accepted
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<emersion>
thanks for the update on xdg-session-management jadahl
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<jadahl>
np. felt the frustration on the ML the last few days so probably a good idea to try to move that forward a bit
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<emersion>
frustration-driven development
<jadahl>
there are two kinds of frustration driver development. not sure which one is better
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<emersion>
two kinds?
<emersion>
PSA: weston alpha release is today
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<jadahl>
emersion: own frustration, and others frustration :P
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<zamundaaa[m]>
(for those on matrix: repeating the message because apparently I wasn't identified anymore)
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<zamundaaa[m]>
I'm currently trying to make ctrl+scroll work on windows that don't have focus
<zamundaaa[m]>
Afaict from the wl_keyboard leave description, I must leave the old surface before sending enter on the one that the mouse is hovering over
<zamundaaa[m]>
So do I need to do some weird dance, leaving and entering surfaces before and after scroll events are sent, or is there some better way?
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<emersion>
only one surface can have wl_keyboard focus at a time, yeah
<emersion>
what _might_ work for ctrl specifically is sending the modifiers without giving focus…
<emersion>
i'm not sure how to address this use-case tbh
<emersion>
switching keyboard focus can have bad consequences
<emersion>
like some client might visually mark a text input as unfocused
<tleydxdy>
what does ctrl+scroll do?
<emersion>
it scrolls harder
<emersion>
i think?
<emersion>
hm, on browsers, it zooms in/out
<emersion>
i guess it's up to the app
<tleydxdy>
so there may not be a good solution that covers all the things it could be used for?
<emersion>
the good solution is: don't mutate messages
<emersion>
be it Subject, From, or the body itself
<emersion>
(prepending List-* header fields is fine)
<daniels>
ww?
<ManMower>
doesn't weston already send modifiers with pointer enter?
<emersion>
ehhh
<daniels>
(I agree tho)
<emersion>
sorry, i got mixed up in a DKIM discussion
<tleydxdy>
xd
<emersion>
tleydxdy: i am not sure
<emersion>
sending all pressed keys to a surface which doesn't have focus may not be the best idea
<emersion>
even if it's under the cursor
<ManMower>
I mean, other than breaking literally everything, I don't think there would be a problem
<emersion>
e.g. type your password but your cursor is over another app
<tleydxdy>
I have focus follow mouse, so these usecases are intuitive to me at all
<emersion>
modifiers have the upside of… not breaking everything
<tleydxdy>
aren't
<ManMower>
pretty sure that's expected X11 behaviour when pointer warping and focus follows mouse are in use. do you hate freedom so much that you won't allow that behaviour anymore?
<emersion>
tleydxdy: we're talking about the protocol here, so it must work for all users and all compositors
<tleydxdy>
yeah I understand
<tleydxdy>
it why I asked what does ctrl+scroll do
<emersion>
zamundaaa[m]: does that help?
<ManMower>
a good question. I think in chrome it zooms my web page :)
<ManMower>
firefox too... and on weston ctrl-scroll does what I'd expect (if I ctrl-scroll firefox when it's not focused, it'll zoom), but on GNOME only a regular scroll takes place.
<emersion>
in my terminal is scrolls one page at a time
<ManMower>
so yeah, just copy the behaviour of the reference compositor. ;)
<kennylevinsen>
emersion: in clay, my external claymgr process binds the seat and receives keyboard events without focus (it has no surface) whenever the bindkey is held. It works, and I think it's mainly clumsy because wlroots doesn't expect me to do this
<zamundaaa[m]>
ok, thanks. So Weston just sends wl_keyboard.modifiers without changing keyboard focus?
<kennylevinsen>
So events without focus does *work*
<kennylevinsen>
s/bindkey/monkey/
<kennylevinsen>
... modkey
<zamundaaa[m]>
Having a closer look at the protocol, it doesn't even say that key events must only be sent while the surface has focus
<zamundaaa[m]>
so that makes things a lot easier
<kennylevinsen>
(in my case I didn't want a dummy surface to give focus to)
<kennylevinsen>
It's definitely less optimal to not have enter/leave though
<kennylevinsen>
But probably only works as easily in my case as I only expect limited input in this mode (compositor keybindings).
<emersion>
zamundaaa[m]: we should probably update the protocol to state that key events should only be sent if the client has focus…
<ManMower>
^
<ManMower>
please don't send regular key events
<zamundaaa[m]>
Of course not, I would neither expect clients to handle that properly nor know any use case for it
<zamundaaa[m]>
documenting that sending modifiers without keyboard focus is a thing the compositor might do would also be a good idea
<ManMower>
zamundaaa[m]: and yeah, weston just sends wl_keyboard.modifiers without changing keyboard focus. it also sends them just before pointer enter. it does not appear to send them on pointer leave, so a client could think ctrl is down until the next pointer or keyboard enter.
<ManMower>
wondering if that's a bug...
<emersion>
i think wlroots just broadcasts modifiers to all clients
<emersion>
which is… not nice, but
<ManMower>
does that play ok with xwayland?
<tleydxdy>
I remember there was some problem with river and modifier, like if the compositor consumes the key event for a shortcut but the client still gets the modifier and get very confused
<tleydxdy>
but masking the modifier also feels wrong
<bl4ckb0ne>
emersion: i think we had a ticket recently about using the same modifier for sway and some clients
<tleydxdy>
esp when some compositor shortcuts could make cursor enter/leave clients
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<kchibisov>
Is it fine to do surface.frame(); surface.commit() without any buffer attached or it's not a good thing and may not work? Assuming that I've attached buffer in a separate transaction before.
<kennylevinsen>
Just frame callback commits? It's allowed and Firefox relies on it, whether it's "good" is another discussion. :P
<kchibisov>
If firefox relies on them to work that way, then I'm likely fine.
<emersion>
mpv does too
<kchibisov>
Do they request them right before drawing or after getting previous callback?
<kchibisov>
Or right after drawing.
<emersion>
hm, for mpv i don't remember exactly, but iirc the logic might be
<emersion>
on frame callback, see if there's a new frame to be drawn, if not, don't submit a frame and request a new frame callback
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<MrCooper>
kchibisov: the protocol documentation doesn't explicitly say how the compositor should treat such frame events, so their effective timing depends on compositor implementation details
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<MrCooper>
e.g. it's valid for the compositor to send out such frame events immediately when it processes the request (assuming the last buffer attached to the surface has already been presented)
<emersion>
yeah, and that's what e.g. sway will do, i think
<emersion>
but once only
<emersion>
the second time, it'll wait for vblank
<emersion>
(resuming the render loop and all of that)
<kchibisov>
I just have a situation where commit buffer and shortly after request frame in a separate commit.
<kchibisov>
I'm just not sure how not drawing windowing libraries should do frame callbacks.
<emersion>
it's better to request the frame callback in the same commit
<kchibisov>
In theory I can say request frame callbacks before event X and draw on event Y, and before sending Y, I request frame, but without commit, given the user must draw on Y.
<emersion>
otherwise you're exposed to races and can miss frames
<kchibisov>
I guess I'll go with saying in docs that `must call request frame before getting this event`.
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<pac85>
Are there any plans to implement some form of client authentication and some form of access control for protocols?
<pac85>
I ask because I was whether wayland's limitiations (such as lack of global hotkeys) are temporary or entirely by design
<danieldg>
pac85: privilege separation that is not combined with some sort of sandboxing is unfortunately almost trivial to bypass
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<pac85>
danieldg:I think it would be interesting so that protocols that can't be accepted now such as something to globally expose keystrokes could become acceptable
<danieldg>
for that you likely want a way to register shortcuts that can be managed by the user better than 'this app wants to act as a keylogger - but it promises only to listen to your volume up/down button, honest!'
<pac85>
danieldg: so you think that even with security context it wouldn't be accepted? The thing is that if one expects every app to be adapted chances are many users will have to deal with broken apps for who knows how long. Instead having something that works almost like a drop-in replacement would really ease the adoption
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<danieldg>
it may also be useful to have a way to direct shortcuts to Xwayland apps that are currently doing a global-listen on Xwayland in order to allow adoption, and then use that for wayland too
<danieldg>
no idea what that would look like, though
<pac85>
emersion: I remember about that protocol, however many apps are written around the idea that they can just listen any keystroke. For example obs lets you assign keys by pressing them and then just listens. Adapting it to that protocol would require changing the way it works for the user right?
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<pac85>
danieldg: yeah, Xwayland already has access to special protocols so it could be uses to securely support global hotkeys(that is, without exposing it to wayland clients). Xwayland in general should behave more transparently. Right now it is way too obvious that it is it's own thing with it's own state, like you can literally take a screenshot with the X11 protocol and see the xorg framebuffer, something that the user shouldn't know exists.
<danieldg>
that's a bit harder, because most X11 apps don't handle failures well, and they might expect to be able to interact with other windows that are 'part of' their application
<dottedmag>
pac85: Many apps also written around the idea they can capture any part of the screen. It just means they have to be adapted for Wayland.
<danieldg>
multiple Xwayland instances (one per app) would be another way to address that part
<pac85>
dottedmag: but what if instead wayland allows to trust apps and let them work? Sure adapting them would be better but the end users should always have some kind of fallback imho
<dottedmag>
pac85: Any compositor may implement it today, no need for new protocols
<pac85>
What do you mean?
<dottedmag>
Any compositor may implement "direct all the keys to this app identified by binary location / whatever"
<danieldg>
it's possible to send all input events to xwayland so that hotkeys work
<kennylevinsen>
(if the compositor allows it)
<pac85>
I can make my compositor and my aps do it just like sway lets any app revord the screen but then olds apps wouldn't know about that protovol whuch is my point
<pac85>
Oh
<pac85>
You mean sending it to xwayland
<pac85>
I never though about that
<pac85>
That's interesting, I'll see if I can get it working on wlroots
<danieldg>
I think you can just send key events to any application that has a keyboard - it'd need to handle 'key after leave and before enter'
<pac85>
Yeah regular apps would probably break
<pac85>
But if one knows which client is xwayland then it could be done selectively
<kennylevinsen>
So xwayland based hacks will only work for X clients, and I'm not entirely sure how this would be implemented. Pick a random Xwayland surface and send all keys to that as well, hoping the X server routes things? Have a dedicated dummy application to send it to? Idk
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<kennylevinsen>
Re: protocols, the discussion about how to secure protocols is separate, so I wouldn't worry about that part
<pac85>
I though that global hotkeys weren't a thing yet because there was no way to secure them
<pac85>
That's why I assumed they were connecte d
<danieldg>
it would be useful to have your hotkey protocol handle the concept of a compositor rejecting a hotkey request, or remapping it
<i509VCB>
would a hotkey protocol need to handle conflicting hotkeys?
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<danieldg>
I think that could be done by rejecting either the new or old one, for example
<pac85>
What do you mean by rejecting?
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<danieldg>
tell the app that the request to bind a hotkey (is no longer|has never been) active because (user denied permission|another app already bound it|you can't bind just the spacebar|...)
<i509VCB>
and then more niche scenarios could be brought up. What about a compositor which uses key chords instead of combinations
<danieldg>
exposing bindings by action ID could be better there
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<swick>
that's what KDE and GNOME are going to use. no need for a wayland protocol and no need for client authentication in wayland.
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<emersion>
"no need for a wayland protocol"
<emersion>
more like "need for dbus"
<pounce>
lol
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<i509VCB>
Even then I'd at least like some well thought out interface between the portal implementation and the compositor
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<emersion>
SardemFF7: rip wlb :S
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<pac85>
swick: having a portal for hotkeys would be nice but I don't think it negates the need for something in wayland. I wonder how you would abstract it in tookits since it involves an external prompt to ask the key iirc. Also it wouldn't work for command line hotkey daemons such as shkd (people use them to have some form of universally configured hotkey daemon). I think it would be nice to have some kind of "wayland sudo equivalent" to expose unsafe protocols (
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