marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<nsklaus>
marcan: why not do with the speaker support like what you do with the rest of linux, asahi in general, gpu and so on ? that is: release something basic, safe to use, and improve it over time ? that's what the team did and continue doing so for the gpu, for example.
<chadmed>
because its not basic or safe to use yet
<nsklaus>
ah, if that would be the case that would be understandable
<marcan>
I could make a basic/safe version in an hour or two
<marcan>
it would suck and have reviews saying "audio works now on asahi but sounds like crap"
<nsklaus>
maybe i had the wrong impression that it would be made to work safely, albeit in a reduced mode, low max volume and all, to ensure no damage would happen
<chadmed>
ah yeah and thats the other thing, i interpret "basic and safe" as "safe and will give the press no quarter to complain"
<marcan>
yes, that could be done, by dropping the volume like 16dB
<nsklaus>
*that it could be
<marcan>
which is ridiculous
<chadmed>
whats the point in shipping that lmfao everyone would just have a whinge and then mute it
<marcan>
exactly.
<nsklaus>
maybe ridiculous is better than nothing at all ?
<chadmed>
nope
<marcan>
no, it's not
<marcan>
bad PR is better than no PR
<marcan>
we don't live in a vacuum, project image matters
<marcan>
er, worse than
<j`ey>
how loud is 16dB?
<ChaosPrincess>
maybe stop letting hn/reddit backseat project development :P
<chadmed>
people are looking for anything to complain about even when the work is incredible and genuinely awe inspiring
<nsklaus>
i won't fight of course, i was just inquiring a bit and proposing some suggestions
<j`ey>
Idont have much of a reference
<chadmed>
imagine if we released some shithouse un-DSPed woofer-only monstrosity just so we can say "look wowee it makes sound"
<nsklaus>
chadmed: i'm not complaining at all
<chadmed>
oh no i dont mean you
<chadmed>
i mean people on the orange site, the red site, et
<chadmed>
etc
<nsklaus>
i see
<nsklaus>
the orange site ;)
<chadmed>
point is if we released some horrible sounding thing just to go "well at least it works you ungrateful flogs" then thats a poor reflection on us
<chadmed>
whereas when we release something thats good and they _still_ complain, that reflects poorly on _them_
<chadmed>
which is important, or you end up with a reputation like manjaro
<chadmed>
the DSP works and is good (for the 14" machines and mac mini), the kernel driver works reliably, once the safety daemon is production ready then there wont be any blockers
<chadmed>
other than my lack of access to a 16" and 13" machine to work on those ;)
<nsklaus>
i don't intend to troll, complain, or start flame bait/war or anything like that, but it seemed to me, that's what you folk did with gpu support, and it was somehow well received as for general critic/opinion about it and asahi in general. your 1st released version were just framebuffer, and nobody (worth mentioning) mocked or complained about it, and now step by step you've improved it and it can now run crisis, for example
<chadmed>
supposedly the 14" DSP works fine on the 16" machines according to feedback but i really dont trust like that and i would eventually like to do it properly
<chadmed>
i mean thats true but with that comes hightened expectations
<nsklaus>
release early, release often mantra comes to mind ;)
<chadmed>
agile is not really a very good model for this specifically
<psykose>
nsklaus: where patches
<chadmed>
because inter alia the things we break by moving fast are peoples $3000 laptops
<nsklaus>
chadmed: i agree safety first, that is for sure
<nsklaus>
maybe it's just me, but i wouldn't mind a low max volume , very basic speaker support, that no support at all
<nsklaus>
i mean, knowing it would improve over time
<chadmed>
j`ey: that question is kinda backwards since the dB being referenced there is not dB SPL but dB of signal
<nsklaus>
*than
<chadmed>
decreasing a signal by 3 dB halves its absolute power
<chadmed>
decreasing it by 16 dB is... no bueno
<j`ey>
chadmed: oh I misread, dropping it *by* 16dB, I thought he said 16Db as if that was the max volume
<chadmed>
oh no lol 16 dB SPL would be like whispering in a quiet office
<chadmed>
-16 dB gain on the output is half the max volume which in my use is only barely loud enough to listen to in my quiet room with the window open
<nsklaus>
beats nothing ;)
<chadmed>
eh without the DSP it really doesnt
<chadmed>
its not like there arent alternatives
<nsklaus>
you mean that without the dsp the sound would have bad quality ?
<chadmed>
the quality is so unbelievably shit you will literally just not use the speakers at all lmfao
<chadmed>
[22:30] <chadmed> whats the point in shipping that lmfao everyone would just have a whinge and then mute it
<nsklaus>
interesting, i didn't know that
<nsklaus>
to be fair, my analogy with gpu and thunderbolt/usb3 support still stands
<chadmed>
without proper DSP and routing the "speakers" are just two cheap paper microspeakers hooked up to an amp chip
<nsklaus>
what you released first was basic and you improved it incrementaly
<chadmed>
they sound worse than a cheap pre-japan-being-good hand-me-down shortwave radio from the early 70s i have
<chadmed>
thats not even really an exaggeration
<j`ey>
nsklaus: it's just a different situation
<chadmed>
nsklaus: because like i said at this point the DSP and kernel are pretty much done and the blocker is safety, which is an absolute blocker
<chadmed>
at this point with the whole thing like 90% done (for the important machines) why bother releasing something crap
<chadmed>
and going "oh dont worry guys this isnt the REAL speaker support we've spent two years on this is just the fake one"
<chadmed>
silly
<nsklaus>
you should have released early you wouldn't be in that situation then you are now, that if you release basic after waiting long people will have difficulties to understand
<j`ey>
lol
<chadmed>
also people are generally cognisant of the sheer amount of work that goes into bringing a gpu into passing the GLES conformance tests from literally nothing
<j`ey>
nsklaus: please stop telling people how to do stuff
<chadmed>
whereas people have a generally idea that "its just speakers bro just make them doof sound out bro"
<chadmed>
unfortunately thats not how microspeakers work and without hundreds of thousands of dollars of tools and signing a bunch of NDAs and also high salaries we cant really do it any faster than we are
<psykose>
when did the project manager get hired
<chadmed>
were there no viable alternatives maybe it would have been higher up on the priority list but as it stands people have a proper working line out backed by quite an excellent DAC and amp, and bluetooth works pretty great too
<nsklaus>
j`ey: yes, i'm not doing anyone how he should do what he does, it's not critic and demands, it was just ideas and suggestion, from someone eager to see the project progress and be able to use it on my m2pro laptop. it's casual talking, i do not wish to teach lessons or best practices or anything.. that was just casual talk
<chadmed>
so its not really a priority
<nsklaus>
*i'm not doing -> i'm not telling how people should do what they do ...
<j`ey>
nsklaus: ok, but you have reiterated your point now, and they have explained why it is being done the way it is
<nsklaus>
if i had to say something about the project asahi in general, that would be just praise
<chadmed>
we're going to end up going in circles
<jannau>
"< nsklaus> you should have released early ..."
<chadmed>
but yeah like, people would _not_ have understood if we released earlier in a "safe basic" state because it was never really safe and was never really even at a "basic" level that anyone on this planet would deem shippable
<nsklaus>
yes, my point was hear, and i thank you folks for the replies, i'll let you do your magic, and be patient about it, no worries
<nsklaus>
*heard
<jannau>
bye
<ChaosPrincess>
well, there is a great method of making features you want appear :P
<nsklaus>
i haven't said i'd leave ? ;)
<ChaosPrincess>
make them yoursef
<ChaosPrincess>
works 100% of the time
<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: i agree with what you're saying of course.. i was not making any demands of course, that was just questions concerning the general logic
<chadmed>
the logic is sound, and if we had released some abominable woofer-only garbage then everyone would have gone "why didnt you just wait this sucks"
<chadmed>
the firmware framebuffer worked out okay because the cpus are screaming fast so apart from the terrible battery life you could barely even tell
<nsklaus>
some people are never happy, you shouldn't listen too much about those, not everyone's opinion matter in the same way than some other's ..
<marcan>
nsklaus: those people end up writing articles and giving a bad name to the project
<nsklaus>
there will always be naysayers
<chadmed>
yeah there will, so why give them any ammo
<chadmed>
"oh haha yeah beta software your fault if you melt your $3000 laptop speakers lol owned"
<nsklaus>
don't mind them, drive your own pace, and the things you do will be the proof in itself that you don't have to feel any guilt or shame or anything from those
<chadmed>
this is all tangential anyway since people who care enough can already use the speakers, all the development happens out in the open
<chadmed>
but as evidenced by a lack of complaining (mostly) no one actually does, and people seem happy to wait until its good and ready
<nsklaus>
frankly speaking, asahi project already proved it was capable, and it delivers. naysayers have no more grounds
<nsklaus>
yes, i will happily wait too, but please hurry :D
<nsklaus>
i've been prisonner of jail-bsd for too long ;)
<nsklaus>
i'm just joking a bit
<marcan>
you seem to be completely dismissing PR and project image as if only the software matters.
<marcan>
that is not how it works
<marcan>
half the reason this project is successful is because I played the right PR cards at the beginning to get it credible
<marcan>
good PR also attracts developers
<nsklaus>
hmm, those are sensible arguments. i admit i tend to ignore those details myself
<chadmed>
most people do which is why theyre not in charge of projects and dont influence when we ship stuff
<marcan>
and the next step, now that this stuff is actually getting seriously usable, is to get *non-platform* developers on board buying these things
<marcan>
because I can't fix everything that is broken or underdeveloped in desktop linux myself
<marcan>
so we need more interest from all the upstreams we interact with
<marcan>
and that means we should optimize for another nice media cycle once all the things that are coming together lately get done
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<marcan>
that's how you get things like notch support or nice touchbar integration rolling eventually
<marcan>
you need more people involved higher up the stack
<chadmed>
hell its how we got half the stuff we needed in pipewire too
<marcan>
yup
<chadmed>
dmitry sharshakov was interested enough to help out with getting stuff like multiple sample rate IRs upstream
<chadmed>
which was a massive blocker
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<marcan>
I wish I could just focus on the code and spend all day doing kernel coding, but then the project wouldn't have succeeded, because that is not in fact all that matters
<nsklaus>
marcan: you have more than just a technical interest in this i see, you also think of general image and public acceptance .. i admit i'm totaly ignorant of those things. but that is good to hear you're concerned even by those aspects too.. i cannot say anything then. all is well. i should just be patient.
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<nsklaus>
hopefully in one month or two i should be able to use asahi on m2pro laptop
<jn>
meanwhile, external speakers and headphones should work, right?
<nsklaus>
jn: headphones yes
<nsklaus>
headphone, using the "jack" physical port,
<nsklaus>
and also sound through bluetooth worked last time i tried
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<piroko>
is there a way to boost the drive on the headphone jack of say, the 14" macbook pro? I have some 80ohm headphones hooked up and they sound really quiet even at 100% volume
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<chadmed>
the controls in alsamixer might have what youre looking for
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<piroko>
that just has a single slider for pipewire
<piroko>
oh I can switch it
<chadmed>
Fn+F6
<chadmed>
yup
<chadmed>
you want the Jack DAC Gain slider
<piroko>
yuuup perfect, thank you!
<chadmed>
no worries
<povik>
yeah, and if the controls are not enough, there are options on the codec to boost the signal even further, though they are not supported by the kernel driver yet
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<marcan>
ChaosPrincess, povik, jannau: the genpd dependency probe order mess should be fixed now in asahi-wip. I removed the workaround always-on properties.
<j`ey>
marcan: got a weird copy/paste thing in the commit
<j`ey>
(after the sign off)
<marcan>
the last line? I just fixed that
<j`ey>
data race, I pulled at the wrong time :P
<marcan>
(also that was intended for -dev)
<_jannau_>
btw, the branch asahi is still at asahi-6.1-2 instead of the released asahi-6.2-11 (or asahi-6.2-12)
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<marcan>
ah yeah, fixing
<marcan>
uhm. it's not letting me push.
<marcan>
but I don't have any explicit branch protection for that branch
<marcan>
I added one to allow force pushes and still nothing
<marcan>
what...
<marcan>
wait but it let me push something else?
<marcan>
okay, I have no idea what that was about but it worked when pushing from a branch instead of a tag
<_jannau_>
was it trying to push the tag object and not the tree referenced in the tag?
<ChaosPrincess>
rebased my patches on new asahi-wip, dcp doesnt want to boot now
<ChaosPrincess>
also, i wish sddm would actually figure out how to not delay reboots by 90s
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<_jannau_>
ChaosPrincess: supposedly fixed in ssdm main, we only need a release
<ChaosPrincess>
oh, so i should wait till 2k25, got it
<_jannau_>
should only happen if you reboot/shutdown from plasma. if you log out and then reboot/shutdown from sddm it's fine
<ChaosPrincess>
yea, i am rebooting from sddm now, except when i forget
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<_jannau_>
you culd also switch to gdm
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<marcan>
ChaosPrincess: this is a j293?
<ChaosPrincess>
yes
<marcan>
hm.
<ChaosPrincess>
running the thing i linked above
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<marcan>
I think there's a problem on j273 but I didn't *think* it affected j293 but I might be wrong
<marcan>
sec
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<marcan>
I think my genpd fix isn't complete or broke somehow
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<marcan>
also why are we on #asahi?
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<ayke_>
chadmed: I would actually be curious how the speakers sound with and without DSP. Doesn't need to be anything fancy, it sounds like even a recording from a phone would give a pretty good idea. Sharing a recording like that might also go a long way to show people why DSP is not optional.
<ayke_>
Just an idea
<ayke_>
(personally I use external speakers so I don't really care about internal speaker support)
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<opticron>
ayke_, the issue was that to make them safe so you literally can't destroy them, max volume has to be very limited so they don't get very loud
<opticron>
with the DSP stuff, it will be able to prevent overexcursion (physical contact inside the speaker) and overtemp (burning them out) and so can allow higher volumes
<ayke_>
Yeah that's my point, let people hear the very quiet low quality sound vs what's possible with DSP.
<opticron>
I think that's eventually going to be how it works. If the safety daemon isn't running, it'll drop the volumes to safe levels
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<marcan>
correct, though that's volume only. the DSP is a separate thing.
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<chadmed>
ayke_: i could demonstrate the quality differences pretty well but the problem with demonstrating overexcursion is that at volumes where youd be able to hear it over a crappy phone recording, it would permanently damage my machine
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<korreckj328>
Not sure if this is the right place to ask, as I'm new to IRC. But I've seen posts on social media about the m1 gpus mentioning gaming with fex. Is this the fex that people are mentioning? Just doing some reading. https://github.com/FEX-Emu/FEX