#asahi on 2024-10-11 — irc logs at oftc.irclog.whitequark.org

2024-07-16 04:52 ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi

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02:45 <ddxtanx> Yeah I'm also having trouble getting steam (really muvm) to recognize DNS servers... No matter what, under muvm /etc/resolv.conf is empty and so it cant resolve any of the urls necessary for steam. Has anyone found a way to get muvm to initialize with a correctly filled resolv.conf? I've tried using dh-client and dhcpcd, and setting my hostname using hostnamectl but nothing has worked so far...

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10:07 <aut0> I saw there are patches under review for 4k page size in asahi. Are these patches publicly available somewhere?

10:08 <aut0> Found this so far: https://tg.st/u/0001-4k-iommu-patch-2022-03-11.patch

10:10 <j`ey> there's no plans for a 4k kernel

10:12 <j`ey> im not sure which patches you were sure that were under review?

10:12 <aut0> This blog posts mentions that: https://asahilinux.org/2021/10/progress-report-september-2021/

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10:13 <chaos_princess> this is an abandoned approach

10:14 <j`ey> yeah but that's 3 years old!

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10:14 <aut0> chaos_princess, abandoned for technical reasons?

10:15 <chaos_princess> yes

10:17 <aut0> chaos_princess, is there a discussion about that somewhere? would like to learn more

10:18 <j`ey> aut0: what's the goal?

10:18 <aut0> j`ey, I would like to run a guest hypervisor with 4k pages size in a nested virt scenario

10:18 <chaos_princess> you can run 4k page vms

10:18 <j`ey> ^

10:18 <aut0> chaos_princess I think so too

10:19 <j`ey> so the host can be 16K just fine

10:19 <aut0> chaos_princess my understanding is that the guest hypervisor would run in a vm anyways and that should support 4k pages

10:19 <chaos_princess> in fact, "use a vm" is the approach taken for stuff that wants 4k page size

10:19 <j`ey> aut0: and the guest kernel can just be upstream

10:19 <j`ey> the guest kernel doesnt need to have any asahi stuff

10:19 <aut0> chaos_princess i saw that in alyssa's talk yesterday

10:20 <chaos_princess> well, yes, that just works, you do not need extra patches

10:20 <aut0> j`ey, the scenario is host hypervisor (asahi linux) -> Guest Hypervisor (4k page size) -> Guest Hypervisor Guest VM (4k page size)

10:21 <chaos_princess> that scenario also should just work without patches

10:21 <chaos_princess> (except for nested virt)

10:21 <aut0> chaos_princess, except patches from maz i think

10:21 <aut0> chaos_princess yes

10:21 <aut0> chaos_princess, thanks will keep trying :)

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10:40 <maz> you can't have a guest hypervisor using a smaller page size than its host.

10:41 <chaos_princess> huh?

10:41 <chaos_princess> so, 16k -> 16k -> 4k is ok, but not 16k -> 4k -> 4k?

10:42 <maz> think of a 16k-based S2 on a host. How do you allow a 4k-based S2 in a guest?

10:42 <maz> crucially, with different permissions.

10:42 <chaos_princess> what is s2, shadow page table?

10:42 <maz> oh wait, now you need sub-page permissions.

10:43 <maz> stage-2 translation.

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10:44 <chaos_princess> ok, i admit that i don't fully understand nv, but isn't it done by basically flattening the vm tree?

10:46 <maz> you flatten the translations indeed. but you need to honor the guest's hypervisor permissions at the granularity it decides. if that guest is using 4kB translations, and the host is using 16k translations, how do you fit 4 different permissions that the guest decide to use on a single page?

10:46 <maz> news flash, you can't.

10:46 <maz> 4k -> 16k is fine, but 16k -> 4k isn't.

10:47 <maz> that's because you emulate the guest's S2 using the host's S2.

10:47 <j`ey> oh damn

10:47 <nickchan> maz: multiple set of page tables...

10:47 <chaos_princess> ok.... but how does 16->4 work in non-nv scenario then?

10:48 <maz> because you don't *emulate* anything.

10:48 <chaos_princess> ah, i get it now

10:48 <nickchan> for different contexts

10:48 <nickchan> But that sounds like a horrible horrible idea that is very complicated and with questionable utility

10:48 <chaos_princess> yea, ok, got it

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10:49 <chaos_princess> so, since the intermediate guest's shadow page tables become shadow page tables in the host, it must be the same, but the innermost guest uses normal page tables, so it can be different size - correct

10:50 <chaos_princess> ?

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10:51 <nickchan> chaos_princess: the innermost guest doesn't run a virtual machine of its own

10:51 <maz> the intermediate S2 can be bigger or the same. just not smaller. the last-level guest doesn't have any of its translation emulated, so it can do whatever it wants.

10:51 <chaos_princess> right, and that is why it does not care what the host page size is, and can use the same page size

10:51 <chaos_princess> s/same/different/

10:51 <maz> again, we're only emulating S2, not S1.

10:52 <aut0> it seems like i am running into some FEAT_GTG related check error

10:52 <j`ey> aut0: turns out the guest hypervisor needs to use 16K pages too

10:53 <j`ey> aut0: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2024-10-11#33647360; from here on

10:55 <aut0> ah right, yes that was what i was worried about that the host s2 would be used

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10:55 <aut0> Mhm, doesn't make my life easer :-D. Brings me back to the original question of running a 4k asahi kernel

10:57 <aut0> chaos_princess you mentioned that was abandoned for technical reasons, are there details on that?

10:58 <chaos_princess> need to fight hardware all the way since it assumes 16k everywhere, and costs cpu performance due to tlb overhead and similar

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11:07 <nickchan> chaos_princess: DART on A9-A10X is 4K page but the CPU only support 16K and 64K isn't it lovely (not)

11:08 <chaos_princess> i can see how that happened, but still

11:08 <nickchan> though that's a reverse situation than 4k kernels on asahi

11:08 <nickchan> maybe it's less pain

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11:12 <nickchan> chaos_princess: the dart is the same a7-a10x so it seems like apple just didn't bother to change the dart when they changed the page size

11:12 <nickchan> cpu page size

11:12 <aut0> nickchan i thought it was the main problem that DART does not support 4k pages

11:13 <chadmed_> aut0: the main issues were the performance hit being around 20% and certain peripherals being behind DARTs that were not bypassable

11:13 <chaos_princess> thats a9, the iphone chip

11:13 <chadmed_> that got worked around for GPU but the dart in front of the pcie controller for example can _never_ be bypassed to due security concerns mostly related to thunderbolt

11:14 <aut0> ah sorry didn't read carefully

11:15 <chaos_princess> for non-bypassable in theory you can bounce buffer everything, but that is also perf loss

11:15 <aut0> at some point it's just not fun anymore

11:15 <chadmed_> yeah i mean 20% perf hit is pretty close to the "

11:15 <chadmed_> whats the point

11:15 <chadmed_> " point

11:16 <aut0> "just" fix the sw i guess...

11:16 <chadmed_> well i mean one day in the future when we have solarpunk upper hengsha type cities or whatever maybe linux mm will learn about heterogeneous pages

11:17 <chadmed_> but thats the kind of ultra-invasive and political change that will take 5 years of full time effort to develop and another 15 to convince maintainers

11:17 <chaos_princess> "upper hengsha" - i see another person of culture :P

11:18 <chadmed_> despite its flaws its still one of my favourite games and i replay it regularly

11:21 * Halian doesn't get the reference, but does love solarpunk; his worldbuilding project's main species are four-armed blue-skinned matriarchal psychic solarpunk space elves

11:22 <chadmed_> Halian: deus ex human revolution

11:22 <Halian> Ahh

11:22 <chadmed_> the soft-reboot prequel to deus ex

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19:15 <paco> Hello :)

19:16 <paco> there is a roadmap of the project ? :)

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21:37 <handlerug> is it safe to run dnf and install/manage packages inside `muvm -- FEXBash`?

21:39 <handlerug> nevermind, I see that the mount is readonly. guess I'll have to rebuild fex-emu-rootfs-fedora

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21:56 <opticron> paco, not that I've seen, unfortunately

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22:35 <handlerug> when running `sudo ./kiwi-build --debug --image-type=erofs --image-profile=FEX-RootFS --output-dir ./outdir` I get the error `KiwiTypeNotFound: Build type 'erofs' not found for applied profiles: ['FEX-RootFS']`, did someone encounter this error?

22:44 <chadmed> paco: the roadmap is the same as id software's - When It's Done

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23:01 <easonl> Hello

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23:04 <easonl> Is it possible to pass a HDD to steam microvm?

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23:31 <handlerug> is there a way to get more than one terminal for a single muvm?

23:32 <chadmed_> you just spawn another one with muvm bash or whatever

23:32 <chadmed_> the server and client parts are separate, so any new invocations of muvm should attach to the same vm

23:32 <handlerug> weird, if I run steam or `muvm -- sh`, any other invocations of muvm silently exit

23:37 <handlerug> the command actually runs but I don't get a pty

23:38 <easonl> idk

23:38 <easonl> I also didn't get a terminal

23:39 <handlerug> i can run konsole though :)

23:44 <easonl> thank you!

23:44 <easonl> its pretty messed up