marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | Not ready for end users / self contained install yet. Soon. | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<marcan>
it's /lib/firmware/brcm/
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<Glanzmann>
StephanvanSchaik: With the iommu patch you can run 4 or 16 kb page size. Without the iommu patch you can only run 16kb page size if you want pcie.
<Glanzmann>
The config from me has 4kb page size.
<Glanzmann>
So if you don't change that an don't use the iommu patch, than no usb-a/wifi.
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<chadmed>
the only major show stopper ive run into on 16k pages is some things that distribute a precompiled jemalloc
<chadmed>
yeah i came across that in my investigation too, shame theres not a lot that can be done about it
<chadmed>
or rather, nothing the developers are willing to merge ;)
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<j`ey>
well it seems that you can use smaller than the page size, so if distros compiled with 16k page sizes, 4k systems would be fine
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<chadmed>
yeah but we have to convince them to do so
<chadmed>
i cant imagine theyd be willing to if it meant a performance regression on 4k systems
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<j`ey>
it was a big 'if' :p
<chadmed>
heh yeah
<chadmed>
my main gripe is just fex not working on 16k pages lmao, i wanted to do some performance testing and tracing over the holidays but my holidays ended today so...
<kode54>
chadmed: what the fuck
<kode54>
"Page size is baked into various data structures at compile time"
<kode54>
what the fuck kind of galaxy brained "optimizations" do they think they're doing
<kode54>
I have yet to see any usage scenario where I even need a custom memory allocator
<kode54>
only case I can see is maybe MSVC runtime, where malloc/free cycles are horribly suboptimal
<kode54>
and that's only if you're doing a dumb and allocating and freeing nonstop
<chadmed>
malloc is slow as hell, virtually every program that is memory latency dependent uses a custom allocator
<chadmed>
games being the major group
<chadmed>
valve for example ship their own version of tcalloc with all their source engine games
<kode54>
meet my music player, that does NSData block appends and subrange selections and deletions nonstop as the audio buffering mechanism
<kode54>
an NSArray of classes containing NSData blocks
<kode54>
and it can support subtracting a subrange block from one of them
<chadmed>
i mean the point about compile time optimisations is still true, idk what optimisations they think are so important that they cant just check for page size at runtime. they used to do it in fact
<kode54>
I had to add copious amounts of @autoreleasepool s to lots of places in the audio chain, because it was allocating out of control and not releasing
<kode54>
why does a document viewer need hyper low latency
<kode54>
or, why do we need low latency high interactive web pages
<chadmed>
because web browsers in 2022 are just funky VMs
<kode54>
clearly they are doing too much already
<chadmed>
honestly in some ways, its good for enterprise. HR managers and other assorted corporate mooks should not and cannot be trusted to secure their own data, so use webapps to hide the data from them
<chadmed>
that being said i dont like the state of the web and the mammoth effort required by web browser developers to support it all. it leads to problems like this
<chadmed>
where they feel like they literally cannot spare the handful of cycles to check the system page size
<kode54>
they're hard coding the page size to structure sizes
<chadmed>
its actually kind of hypocritical and pathetic imo, they maintain these gargantuan software packages that exist almost entirely to facilitate the execution of code in the most inefficient, slow and energy intensive manner possible
<sven>
fwiw, the linux kernel also hardcodes the page size at compile time
<sven>
i don't know enough about the jemalloc codebase but i could imagine that another part of the issue is that they're using a #define everywhere and moving that to a runtime variable could get quite ugly
<chadmed>
yeah someone mentioned that there are just so many places where they rely on it being hard coded that it would be nigh on impossible to change it at this stage, which sucks
<chadmed>
as j`'ey said though, jemalloc compiled for larger page sizes works on systems with smaller page sizes than it was compiled for (but not vise versa) so if you could prove that there is no performance penalty you might be able to convince distros to at least patch their versions for 16kB pages on aarch64
<j`ey>
j`'ey is a new one
<chadmed>
i left my spell checker in my other pants
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<rkjnsn>
j“‘’”ey
<j`ey>
close enough
<kode54>
annoying
<kode54>
also annoying that I see people saying the issue is not memory latency, but memory usage period
<kode54>
let's see
<kode54>
my audio player is using 74.2 MB of RAM
<kode54>
huh, memory usage seems to be climbing
<kode54>
I wonder what it could be
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<mps>
musl malloc-ng?
<kode54>
hmm?
<rkjnsn>
Clearly we should add support for running the kernel with 16k pages but allowing some user space processes like FEX and Chromium to run with 4k pages. I'm sure that'd be a trivial change that would be easily acceptable upstream, right?
<mps>
I see improved malloc performance with musl malloc-ng
<chadmed>
i mean its not a kernel thing, its a malloc/jemalloc/tcalloc thing. it would be nice if they had support for packing smaller pages into large ones, i.e. put 4x 4k pages into a single 16k page and have a lookup table in memory of the addresses corresponding to each 4k page, which i assume is what apple does for rosetta 2?
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<kode54>
huh
<kode54>
% time ./malloctest
<kode54>
% time ./malloctest
<kode54>
./malloctest 0.07s user 0.04s system 33% cpu 0.319 total
<kode54>
./malloctest 0.07s user 0.03s system 96% cpu 0.102 total
<kode54>
mallocing 4MB of RAM as a pointer store, then allocating (rand() & 255) + 1 1048576 times
<kode54>
then freeing them all
<dianshi>
im planing to mess with some sdr stuff and dsp, so all that info could be useful kode54 =P
<kode54>
so basically 0.1s total processing time for over a million randomly sized allocations
<kode54>
let's see how it handles fragmentation
<rkjnsn>
I may be misremembering, but I thought macOS did support processes running with 4k pages for Rosetta 2 even while the kernel and other processes ran with 16k pages.
<chadmed>
yeah it does, otherwise binaries compiled for amd64 assuming 4k pages wouldnt work. but those pages still need to be mapped into memory by the kernel and addressable by the mmu, which means you either need to pad a 16k page with 12k worth of 0s or pack 4 pages into a 16k page and track which 4k page is which somewhere else in the process's memory
<chadmed>
but thatd be something rosetta does, not the kernel
<sven>
you can configure userspace to use 4k page even when the kernel uses 16k pages
<sven>
iirc they just support flipping the page size on every context switch
<j`ey>
(that bit is TG0 in register TCR_EL1)
<kode54>
latest version gets about 0.236s of real time doing that mess
<kode54>
er, of cpu time, user+system
<kode54>
that's, 1048576 mallocs, then half that free, then realloc the remaining ones to random size up to twice the original size, then malloc the same size range into the original freed slots, then free it all
<kode54>
let's see how Ubuntu fares with its stock glibc
<rkjnsn>
Right, flipping the page size on context switch is what I was thinking macOS did, but I seem to recall the consensus being than Linux would probably never support something like that.
<kode54>
it gets 0.314s real, 0.258s user, 0.056s system
<sven>
i guess flipping page size at least requires a full tlb flush. doing that on some context switches sounds like a very good way to slow everything down!
<kode54>
I once tried to get clang to compile the SSAT opcode
<sven>
i guess it'd also require quite some effort to modify the virtual memory code to keep track of everything correctly
<kode54>
didn't realize it was only ARMv7 and older
<sven>
so yeah, very unlikely to ever happen ;)
<dianshi>
rkjnsn: 4k and 16k running at same time?
<j`ey>
dianshi: yeah
<dianshi>
i think also recall about 16k and 4k stuff for linux kernel
<kode54>
wasn't there some difference between the DTK and the M1?
<kode54>
re: page sizes
<kode54>
also a reason why they dropped the DTK with 11.3
<rkjnsn>
Now that you mention it, I think I did see in a bug somewhere that the DTK used 16k pages even for Rosetta 2, and support for running Rosetta 2 processes with 4k processes was only available on the final M1 chip. Couldn't say for sure, though.
<marcan>
going to stream more distro infra stuff in a bit
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<rednaks[m]>
I'm on matrix :p
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<kettenis>
that is my attempt to make u-boot set the default output path for the OS to the framebuffer if a keyboard is connected to the machine
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<kettenis>
(which will always be true on laptops)
<kettenis>
this implements marcan's suggestion to keep defaulting to serial when running under the hypervisor
<kettenis>
it'd be great if somebody using linux could test this
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<jannau>
kettenis: disables serial output from the kernel on my macbook pro 14". So works as intended. if someone needs serial output after u-boot they can add console=ttySAC0
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<Glanzmann>
j`ey: Can you or someone else give me a quick recap of the stream today?
<Glanzmann>
What I did not understant, why needs the esp uuid be modified when it is created in macos?
<Glanzmann>
When I try the tune2fs I get This operation requires a freshly checked filesystem.
<Glanzmann>
I thought that one stub/u-boot is tied to one esp but how can that work when the uuid of the esp is changed?
<j`ey>
I don't know what's going on with the ESP/UUID part yet either, I just dont think anything has been done there
<Glanzmann>
I see.
<j`ey>
I guess they want it to be unique per install so you can have multiple installs
<Glanzmann>
Yeah, that was my thought, too. But it is created under macos, isn't it? Should it not be unique that way already?
<Glanzmann>
ALso the uuid must be knowwn before kmutil the u-boot if they want to hard code it ...
<Glanzmann>
And Debian only allows me to change the uuid of an ext4 on a freshly checked filesystem.
<Glanzmann>
m a r c a n did it do online today in the stream.
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<Glanzmann>
Anyway I'll wait for the result and than adopt.
<psykose>
i find it so cute how you type m a r c a n like that
<Glanzmann>
I do it to not ping him out of his preciously sleep.
<psykose>
yeah :)
<Glanzmann>
I also thought about Hector or H.
<psykose>
i like this version
<psykose>
wide
<Glanzmann>
Okay, I'll keep doing that than.
<Glanzmann>
then*
<tpw_rules>
i mean hopefully he does not have an alarm hooked up to his irc notifier
<mps>
G_lanzmann:
<mps>
does this works
<Glanzmann>
I see you, mps. :-)
<Glanzmann>
mps: But I don't have *beep* on my nic, I wasted to many hours of my life in IRC. I was clean for many years and than asahi came along.
<mps>
Glanzmann: are you pinged with G_lanzmann
<Glanzmann>
I'm not pinged at all, but I check this channel, even on my mobile phone on a regular basis.
<mps>
ah, ok
<Glanzmann>
mps: irssi runs on one of my servers in a tmux ...
<mps>
Glanzmann: too much we have in similar :)
<mps>
also my irssi run on server in tmux
<mps>
tell me that you are know forth programming and I will start to 'fear' :)
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<Glanzmann>
mps: No, I don't know forth. I did most of my programming in c and perl.
<Glanzmann>
When I try to run tune2fs -U random on an umounted or mounted filesystem it refuses to do so.
<Glanzmann>
m a r c a n could run it on a mounted file system. So I checked the Debian package and the source code, but did not find anything.
<Glanzmann>
I also checked aarch and they seem to have the up2date version of e2fsprogs. Same as Debian.
<jannau>
Glanzmann: e2fsck -f /dev/nvme0n1p7 && tune2fs -U random /dev/nvme0n1p7
<Glanzmann>
jannau: Yep, that works. But I don't get how marcan could do that today on a mounted file system.
<Glanzmann>
Than I misunderstood what marcan did you day.
<Glanzmann>
jannau: So m a r c an does the resignature thing in the initrd before the root filesystem is mounted?
<marcan>
maybe Debian's tune2fs is broken, have you consider using Arch's?
<j`ey>
he has an alarm!
<Glanzmann>
Of course he does, no wonder he gets no sleep.
<jannau>
maybe the file system was still marked as clean? I see the same behavior with arch's tune2fs
<Glanzmann>
marcan: During the stream when I saw how grub-install of grub hardcoded the partition in the grub binary I was also about to say to you to use Debian instead, but I bite my lip instead. :-)
<Glanzmann>
jannau: Or it uses a different way to create the filesystem if you have metadata checksums or not might change the behaviour ...
<VinDuv>
weird, I tried after switching the filesystem to read-only, and it still failed but tune2fs added a "(and reboot afterwards!)" at the end of its error message
<Glanzmann>
Anyway, if I want to do it in the Debian image, I need to do it in the initrd.
<Glanzmann>
VinDuv: Yes, I saw that in the code somewhere.
<marcan>
metadata checksums use the UUID as seed and you need to rewrite all your checksums if you want to change the UUID
<Glanzmann>
yep.
<Glanzmann>
Did you disable metadata checksums?
<marcan>
I think I made this FS from busybox which may not have enabled them
<VinDuv>
ah, that’s why it says it will take time
<Glanzmann>
marcan: That explains it.
<marcan>
Glanzmann: try turning on metadata_csum_seed
<Glanzmann>
no luck.
<VinDuv>
Seems to work here. Try doing it during the mke2fs
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<VinDuv>
Glanzmann: This is on a debian stable VM. Interestingly if I follow your steps I can reproduce your problem. Weird
<VinDuv>
Can you try manually attaching the file to the loop device, executing mkfs.ext4 -O metadata_csum on the loop device, and then mounting it? That’s what I did
<Glanzmann>
Yep.
<ducc[m]>
for gpu is the target open gl es 2 right now?