marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<Tramtrist>
is there really going to be a move away from arch for official asahi distro?
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<nsklaus>
i hope arch will still be supported fully afterward, even if base distro becomes fedora
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<j`ey>
someone else will probably have to maintain that
<nsklaus>
Tramtrist: i have seen alyssa tweets that certainly hint at it, marcan too, so i'd say it is coming
<nsklaus>
mark my words, you'll regret pacman ;)
<nsklaus>
dearly
<nsklaus>
if i might add..
<j`ey>
regret using or leaving pacman? lol :P
<nsklaus>
regret leaving of course
<nsklaus>
i tested fedora 38 lately, interaction with package manager was painful and slow
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<j`ey>
there's a dnf rewrite, seems like it might be in fedora 39
<j`ey>
that is meant to address perf issues
<nsklaus>
i've heard same hopes when they introduced dnf
<nsklaus>
years ago
<nsklaus>
but, well we'll see what the final product will be, i think i'll test it (fedora-asahi)
<nsklaus>
but my guess is that i'll revert quickly to arch
<j`ey>
you might have to put up with fedora unless someone maintins arch :P
<nsklaus>
the installer have option, there is one for installing only efi base to boot any other linux,
<ChaosPrincess>
gentoo works quite good with asahi kernel :P
<nsklaus>
if i use that installer option, won't i be able to install arch ?
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<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: if i can't have arch, i'll go gentoo
<j`ey>
nsklaus: sure, but you still need all the packages
<nsklaus>
j`ey: and those package aren't made available by arch ? (as an organisation i mean)
<nsklaus>
what would i be missing ?
<ChaosPrincess>
mesa is the most "important" one
<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: ah so what j`ey meant was specific package made by asahi team
<j`ey>
and the linux-asahi kernel
<j`ey>
and m1n1 etc
<nsklaus>
j`ey: m1n1 should be covered by installer efi option
<ChaosPrincess>
j`ey: well, thats the one that you want integrated into the package manager so stuff doesnt try to pull upstream mesa and break
<nsklaus>
aren't the asahi team gonna make available vanilla package for distro to adopt and put in place ?
<nsklaus>
not everyone is fan of fedora or ubuntu
<ChaosPrincess>
whats vanilla package
<ChaosPrincess>
you can always clone repo and build it yourself
<j`ey>
nsklaus: m1n1 stage 2 gets updates too
<j`ey>
and u-boot
<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: vanilla package, i mean, made available everything needed for distro to build their own packages out of what you'll provide
<j`ey>
sure
<ChaosPrincess>
nsklaus: yep, as i said, clone the repo
<j`ey>
and the PKGBUILDs repo exists today, that someone can fork from, if markan decides not to maintain that
<nsklaus>
there will be a way for me to run arch on this laptop i think, at least i hope
<j`ey>
if someone steps up to maintain it
<j`ey>
(assuming markan decides to not maintain it, which makes sense)
<nsklaus>
if there was folks up to maintain support for gentoo, openbsd, debian, there will probably be one for arch
<nsklaus>
if all fail worst case scenario i'll go gentoo and be happy
<mps>
iirc j`ey use alpine
<zeromind>
difference there is though, that for everything besides arch linux, aarch64 is an officially supported architecture by the os/distro, no?
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<j`ey>
mps: I'd probably switch to fedora I think, if it happens
<mps>
j`ey: whatever is good for, but I will not for sure :)
<mps>
s/for/for you/
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<Tramtrist>
Im hoping the rebase will include speaker functionality 🙏
<Tramtrist>
anyway havent used fedora since it was redhat...
<nsklaus>
Tramtrist: it was all downhill from there
<Tramtrist>
Also sad Slackware wasnt considered
<Tramtrist>
back to basics
<j`ey>
some people put slackware on the m1
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<Tramtrist>
was not aware of that
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<marcan>
nsklaus, j`ey: the arch packages will remain maintained, but obviously will get less testing going forward. there will probably be less integration work going into the Arch side going forward though.
<marcan>
really though, given the state ALARM is in, I just can't recommend it. you *will* run into problems that have nothing to do with Asahi and there will be no solution. we're already in that situation, that's a big reason for the change.
<nsklaus>
and that doesn't happen on gentoo or debian asahi spins ?
<marcan>
no, it does not
<nsklaus>
i see
<marcan>
gentoo and debian have official arm64 support with teams of size greater than one
<marcan>
well gentoo doesn't even care since you build your own packages :p
<marcan>
but I highly doubt debian would put out outright broken packages missing files like alarm did, several times
<mps>
marcan: you forgot to mention alpine ;)
<nsklaus>
maybe situation will improve for arch on arm, in time, what is wrong with it exactly ? out of date or badly built packages ?
<marcan>
bad QA in general
<marcan>
which is to be expected when it's basically run by one person without enough free time
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<marcan>
I don't blame them, but unless that team drastically grows, it will not be a viable distro you can depend on
<marcan>
it's just numbers, you can't single-handedly run a fork of something as big as Arch with one person
<marcan>
like right now there are a whole bunch of packages on ALARM you can't install due to broken dependencies and nobody is fixing them
<nsklaus>
everyone start turn their attention toward arm64, hopefully arch for arm will grow its maintainer numbers
<marcan>
and there are missing packages from Arch that should be available because they work just fine
<marcan>
I think the real answer here is the upstream Arch project needs to adopt arm64 support themselves
<nsklaus>
makes sense
<nsklaus>
i though alarm was made by arch people, it isn't ?
<marcan>
it is not
<marcan>
it is made by ~one person
<nsklaus>
i didn't know that
<nsklaus>
and arch haven't acknowledged the problem of supporting arm64 architecture ? they have no roadmap or anything ?
<marcan>
not to my knowledge
<nsklaus>
bad situation i see
<Foxboron>
nsklaus: acknowledged what problem?
<nsklaus>
Foxboron: that they are not supporting officialy arm64 arch
<Tramtrist>
thats all news to me .. marcan why did you choose arch in the beginning? was there some other benefit?
<Foxboron>
nsklaus: That's not really a "problem", but supporting other architectures in Arch is hard because nobody spent time trying to figure out a good centralized build system
<Foxboron>
So we have several people running their own rebuilder/builder setup, one guy running a riscv port and stuff
<Foxboron>
And that is mostly due to the fact that sitting downstream is easier then trying to support this officially, so nobody worked on it
<nsklaus>
hopefully arch will come to its sense and will start supporting arm64 officialy
<marcan>
easy to hack on, rolling distro, reasonably shippable to end users (i.e. not Gentoo or Nix :p), mostly vanilla packages so no weird surprises, I'm already familiar with Arch, and I thought the maintenance situation wasn't this dire.
<Foxboron>
nsklaus: Please don't say "come to it's sense".. this is a technical problem
<marcan>
it is not a technical problem
<marcan>
it is a human problem
<Foxboron>
you are asking someone to invest a couple hundred hours of rearchitecting the release process of Arch to support multiple architectures
<marcan>
regardless of how it is homed, there needs to be a team in charge of this
<Tramtrist>
ya especially the vanilla package situation is very positive to me in principal
<Tramtrist>
but arm is a special animal
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<Foxboron>
marcan: Nobody wants to work on the actual hard problems. I spent 3 years working on the git migration
<marcan>
even with this outcome, I still think ALARM was the right choice for what Asahi intended to be (a reference distro real distros could use as an example of how to integrate support)
<psykose>
know what that one feels like
<nsklaus>
Tramtrist: there are raspberry pi and similar more powerful arm computer, that it would be nice to run ArchLinux on it
<Tramtrist>
👍
<marcan>
and I intend to continue maintaining the packages and PKGBUILDs to that extent too, it's easy to navigate for anyone who wants to see what's up
<Tramtrist>
cant beat armbian afaik
<Tramtrist>
really strong community release and support
<marcan>
it's just that we've grown up a bit since then and at least one Actual Real Distro has stepped up to do it officially ;)
<Tramtrist>
for Pi I mean
<Foxboron>
marcan: Easy when there is incentive from RH :p
<marcan>
eh, I don't think RH cares about apple silicon :p
<nsklaus>
marcan: come on enough mystery spill the beans already ;) what's the new base distro ?
<Foxboron>
marcan: Not everyone working on Fedora aarch64 are unpaid volunteers :p
<marcan>
I'm not talking about ARM support in general, I mean working with us getting everything integrated.
<nsklaus>
i bet it's fedora
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<Tramtrist>
debian stable is coming.. im hoping its that reason hes waiting :D
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<nsklaus>
i'd prefer debian to fedora to be honest
<marcan>
anyone who has been paying a modicum of attention already knows what distro it is :p
<marcan>
I'm just trying to leave the official announcement for when it's all ready and shiny
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<nsklaus>
marcan: yes it's fedora :/
<ellyq>
"stable" distributions aren't a good choice for project that's moving forward as quickly as asahi does
<marcan>
(refer to my previous discussion on marketing/PR as to why this matters)
<psykose>
Foxboron: if it makes you feel better about the future, know that after the hard problems are solved the actual architecture supporting is not very challenging in itself (i.e. it's not double effort over x86_64 for adding more)
<Foxboron>
marcan: but generally, yes. The ALARM situation isn't great but solving this in Arch proper is going to take a while until more people get invested in solving this
<Tramtrist>
better brush up my fedora skills... honestly no idea... do they use RPM? systemd?
<psykose>
Foxboron: also good job on finishing git :D forgot to congratulate you
<marcan>
Foxboron: yeah, I'm not saying it's easy
<Tramtrist>
i have redhat CDs from like.. version 3 or something
<marcan>
just not much I can do from here but sit and watch unfortunately
<Foxboron>
psykose: I started working on buildbot support for v3 rebuilds, but we need to work on the release process for packages so things can get properly integrated
<psykose>
you'll figure it out :-)
<psykose>
slowly slowly
<Foxboron>
marcan: Yes, I understand that. Just explaining it form the Arch perspective
<Foxboron>
from*
<marcan>
I do still maintain an ALARM mirror and assuming that server doesn't crash and burn I intend to keep it :p
<ellyq>
yes Tramtrist, I used to maintain Fedora@IBM during my time there, can't wait for dnf rewrite :)
<Foxboron>
psykose: thanks btw. It went surprisingly smooth
<Tramtrist>
what was that old update service called? up2date or something?
<Tramtrist>
guh
<nsklaus>
marcan: that wasn't feasible to join force with the alarm 1 person maintainer and start building better arch support for arm64 ? too much work involved ?
<marcan>
yes
<nsklaus>
i see
<ellyq>
in my personal (biased) opinion, fedora is a good choice because they ship a lot of fresh packages without breaking stuff and maintainers are very keen to help/listen to suggestions, that why the project i'm contributing to officially supports fedora and arch :)
<marcan>
maintaining a distro ourselves was never an option, that was clear from the start
<nsklaus>
too bad, you could have done wonders i bet ;)
<marcan>
we do not have infinite time
<nsklaus>
that's the sad part yes
<Tramtrist>
will spin up a fedora instance soon to check it out an prepare my mind
<marcan>
I already spend a bunch of my time on "interesting" non-asahi bugs and stuff because I know I can make a difference there sometimes and it's distro-agnostic and helps the whole ecosystem
<marcan>
but directing my/our attention to a single undermaintained distro would be a giant diversion from what the project is about
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<nsklaus>
marcan: yes and all those bug you find and fix and upstream help the community as a whole
<marcan>
we always depended on distros coming to us, not the other way around, for this to ever work
<marcan>
(not different from support for any other platform really)
<nsklaus>
i mean it's nice to see you dig old bug buried deep, you help everyone when you do that
<marcan>
and for community ports to fill that role until they do
<marcan>
(which is how we have all the others, debian, gentoo, etc.)
<nsklaus>
arch is at fault here, unfortunately, and if that's the case, i'll opt for another distro on arm64 until they fix it
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<marcan>
nobody is "at fault"
<marcan>
it's a smaller project with the caveats that come with that
<nsklaus>
i mean their arm64 ssupport is broken apparently
<marcan>
there *is* no arm64 support in arch
<marcan>
ALARM is a separate project
<ellyq>
^this, we're all human with limited time and attention span
<marcan>
and project quality is subject to the amount of development time available
<marcan>
unless you're paying for it nobody is "at fault"
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<nsklaus>
it's a fault to me, arch project should support arm64, like debian or fedora
<marcan>
that's not how open source development works
<Foxboron>
nsklaus: I've tried explaining to you how this works
<nsklaus>
from user perspective that works
<dottedmag>
nsklaus: Shouldn't "should" come with "I'm volunteering to make it happen"?
<marcan>
nsklaus: something you want not existing is not a "fault"
<ellyq>
well, if someone would get paid for full-time commitment to the project, then you could point fingers
<psykose>
volunteering is a mixed bag
<psykose>
it takes hundreds of hours to be able to really accomplish things
<ellyq>
but vast majority of FOSS is ran by contributors who have day jobs, are studying and so on
<marcan>
ellyq: even then, unless someone is paying specifically for that feature in a given timeframe...
<ellyq>
true, then it's called "a contract"
<marcan>
I mean I mostly get paid to work fulltime on Asahi, but that doesn't mean any particular thing that's not ready yet is "my fault"
<marcan>
it just means I commit to pushing forward
<nsklaus>
marcan: it should exists, because arch is a distro, and if you compare distro with other distro, you see other distro support arm64, so arch distro could do it too, but it choose not to support it, and i think that choice is a fault
<ellyq>
of course, didn't mean it that way
<nsklaus>
comparatively speaking
<Foxboron>
nsklaus: People like you is why spending my free time solving these issues is tearing on my daily motivation
<marcan>
nsklaus: what about powerpc? various flavours of arm32? s390? mips? ia64?
<ChaosPrincess>
nsklaus: so, gentoo supports ia64
<marcan>
various distros support all those
<marcan>
should all distros?
<ChaosPrincess>
why shoulndt other distro
<nsklaus>
marcan: same
<ellyq>
well, itanium is kinda dead in the water though :P
<marcan>
ChaosPrincess: I think I beat you with s390 on enterprisy obscure crap :D
<ChaosPrincess>
marcan: nope
<ChaosPrincess>
i can go and rent a new s390x vm
<MichaelLong>
I really don't get why the distro is so much important for some, as long as the specifics are known upstream.
<ChaosPrincess>
cant do that for ia64 :P
<marcan>
true but still :p
<ellyq>
fedora maintainers use their buildsystem on IBM mainframes with s390 i believe :D
<ChaosPrincess>
yea, that one is actually used by real people
<marcan>
nsklaus: so any time a new architecture comes out *all* distros have to support it, in perpetuity?
<marcan>
that doesn't make any sense
<ChaosPrincess>
ia64 is used by contract ghouls at hp and even then they dont want it
<nsklaus>
MichaelLong: distro are important because it determine which package manager you will end up using.
<ellyq>
i mean, just look at RISC-V, great in principle, absolute mess in practice
<marcan>
package managers matter more for packagers than users tbh
<marcan>
(aka: been there done Debian packaging, didn't like it :p)
<ChaosPrincess>
ellyq: risc-v is a reheated mips with its own problems, change my mind
<nsklaus>
marcan: yes but not in perpetuity. old not produced, not used hardware should be pruned out from time to time
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<ellyq>
except that *some* people might still use that old hardware
<ChaosPrincess>
right
<marcan>
nsklaus: I think you really, really don't understand the mechanics here.
<marcan>
no, what you want is not viable and will never happen
<marcan>
that's not how the world works
<ChaosPrincess>
try ever proposing removing m68k support from any distro, and that crowd would come crawling out of the woodwork
<marcan>
what gets supported is what ends up with people behind it to support it
<ellyq>
in the job i just left we still used machines like DEC Alpha running True64 UNIX, so there definitely are businesses or even regular people out there who need legacy platform support
<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: otoh if m68k users come out and moan it mean they are there, and that support is needed, so it means it is not time to remove that support
<dottedmag>
ChaosPrincess: Is there any distro left that supports it? Even Debian kicked it out long time ago.
<ChaosPrincess>
dottedmag: i _think_ gentoo does, but dont quote me on that
<ellyq>
we also get people screaming "everything should work everywhere" when I tell them that we don't support ubuntu, then i started digging up the pile of bugs that accumulated in the past half a year when i was gone (due to personal reasons) and I found that most platforms became unusable because I wasn't there to maintain them so... yeah
<ChaosPrincess>
nsklaus: except there is literally zero reason to run m68k nowdays, and the last processor was made in 94
<dottedmag>
ChaosPrincess: You can run it as a museum exhibition, sure, with the software from that era.
<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: there are new 68k being implemented as we speak in fpga
<ChaosPrincess>
that coldfire, not m68k
<ChaosPrincess>
its a different isa despite being vaguely inspired by the old one
<dottedmag>
nsklaus: I can implement k86m in FPGA, but that does not entitle me to force burden of support of new architecture on unwilling maintainers.
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<nsklaus>
ChaosPrincess: no i speak about amateur/opensource projects of 68k successor (not done by motorola, not coldfire)
<ChaosPrincess>
uhhhh....
<ChaosPrincess>
that 68080 thing?
<ChaosPrincess>
its an amiga meme
<ChaosPrincess>
and they are gonna run amiga os on it anyway, not linux
<nsklaus>
there's the 68080 for example (last motorola 68k was the 68060, this one i'm talking about is 080 suffix )
<nsklaus>
but there are also the emu68
<nsklaus>
a project of thin layer on top of arm cpu, translate all calls to arm in 68k ones thin translation layer arm<->68k
<nsklaus>
there are projects like those
<ChaosPrincess>
those all are for running old emulated software.
<nsklaus>
these two project are likely to run amigaos though i admit
<ChaosPrincess>
why would you bother running open sw that you can just recompile for native isa on an emulator?
<nsklaus>
i also agree most 68k software are old suffs too
<nsklaus>
i hear from 68k devs that this particular arch was kind of nice
<nsklaus>
for learning asm for example
<nsklaus>
and on a variety of other little levels like that one
<ChaosPrincess>
that sounds stupid
<nsklaus>
saying that this arch was simple and clear, logical
<dottedmag>
learning asm does not require full modern Linux distro with the current set of packages
<ChaosPrincess>
aside from some basic concepts, asm is very arch-dependent
<ChaosPrincess>
and why learn m68k if you are gonna relearn x86 afterwards anyway
<nsklaus>
the idea they promote is that it is easy and pleasing to learn asm dev on amiga-68k
<ChaosPrincess>
that sounds even more stupid
<nsklaus>
for example on x86 memory reads backward
<nsklaus>
i think it's memory endianness
<ChaosPrincess>
no, its m68k that is backwards
<nsklaus>
and on 68k everything is simple, clear, small
<ChaosPrincess>
i think that is what we in the industry call "rose tinted glasses"
<nsklaus>
there's also often the argument of cisc vs risc being debated by 68k supporters
<ChaosPrincess>
and y'know, you would have to learn endianness anyway when you are gonna go x86
<dottedmag>
ChaosPrincess: One can argue that getting your toes wet on something as small and simple as m68k might be a good introduction in assembly languages in general, but that is easily countered by learning by a subset of 8086 assembly that's as compact (though not so "clear")
<ChaosPrincess>
my problem with that approach is that its not "and now the training wheels come off" but rather "you know how to drive a car? great, here is a bike, try not to wipe out"
<dottedmag>
Yeah, the amount of transferrable knowledge is pretty trivial. "There are registers, there are moves, there are arithmetic operations and jumps". One hour of learning, at most.
* dottedmag
shuts up as it veered deeply into offtopic area
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<psykose>
every cpu architecture must emulate every previous cpu architecture for compatibility
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<psykose>
i think that was the point
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<nsklaus>
not quite
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<nsklaus>
the initial point was that distro should support new arches that are becoming used and popular
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<nsklaus>
this has nothing to do with emulation
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<Zeroine>
Is there a way to have the startup options screen appear every time without having to hold the power button or some other way to make switching from MacOS to asahi more convenient?
<mps>
Zeroine: no, afaik
<Zeroine>
=/ alright thanks anyways
<mps>
but you can set default boot 'disk' in macos to asahi
<Zeroine>
yeah
<mps>
and it will boot asahi by default
<Zeroine>
I just switch a lot so the default doesn't really matter
<mps>
ah, I can't remember when I booted macos last time, months
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<Zeroine>
I think on asahi my M1 got pretty hot last time I tried to watch a movie and started to throttle visibly
<Zeroine>
even with the GPU drivers I mean
<j`ey>
video decoding is still done on the CPU
<Zeroine>
ah
<Zeroine>
is that like high on a list of features to add or are other things priorities right now?
<TheLink>
was that some 4k av1 encoded movie?
<TheLink>
otherwise I wouldn't understand how an m1 should start throttling with watching a video
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<Zeroine>
yeah it was 4k
<Zeroine>
they look really good on the retina display the M1 has =D
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<dererk>
Hey! could it be possible that HDMI builtin on M1 pro's ?
<mps>
dererk: yes, it is in macbook m1pro but it doesn't work with asahi
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<dererk>
Thanks for understanding my completely brain damage way of asking if HDMI support for m1 pro's where supported, mps !
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<dererk>
Last one: do you know which is the best way to track how close we are to have audio support? I saw the live stream from Marcan, and he mentioned it was "good enough" to work, but have no idea how to set it up or how actually safe it could be for my gear, heh
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<j`ey>
there's likely to be an anouncement/blog post when audio is ready, since its a big feature
<dererk>
great! good to know how to keep it track, thanks!
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<povik>
fwiw we do ship audio support on the headphone jack
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<chadmed>
dererk: there will be an announcement and everything you need will be packaged up nicely so it Just Works(tm).
<chadmed>
and yes you can use the headphone jack or bluetooth for the time being