marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<marcan> the speakers will just be quiet without speakersafetyd, yes (not unusably quiet even, they're loud to begin with)
<marcan> the whole point of speakersafetyd is *raising* the max volume caps from worst-case. worst-case is basically what you get on every other laptop.
<marcan> so without speakersafetyd, on paper, it should be as loud as your average laptop (which is a lot quieter than Macs)
<marcan> in practice we are really conservative with the caps and other manufacturers push it and blow up their speakers *cough Dell and VLC fiasco cough* so it's probably less, but not like unbearably quiet
<marcan> -20dB is the safety level
<marcan> which is, perceptually, 1/4 the loudness
<marcan> this is also different from lowering the volume the normal way, because the normal way uses DSP to do equal-loudness adjustment, so lower levels have more bass (to sound similar). the -20dB pad is hardware so it will sound tinnier at that volume (just like every other laptop again, almost nobody but Apple does equal-loudness compensation)
<marcan> and yes if speakersafetyd dies the kernel turns down the speakers. automatically if the process dies, or after a 250ms timeout.
<marcan> that's why there's a whole bunch of kernel-side interlocks involved
<Nefsen402> "Dell Tech Support is denying warranty service for speaker damage if the popular VLC Media Player is installed on a Dell laptop" Oh those mfs that makes my blood boil
<marcan> they were overdriving the speakers *and* forgot the I Won The Loudness War safety factor (or didn't care).
<marcan> // Worst-case peak power is 2x RMS power
<marcan> let peak_pwr = 10f32.powf(amp_gain / 10.) / new_speaker.z_nominal * 2.;
<marcan> peak power for an audio signal is *2 times* the power of a full scale sine wave (e.g. a full scale square wave)
<marcan> which incidentally is precisely the total power of that song, all throughout.
<marcan> (that song is engineered to have absolute maximum output power, and loudness by proxy)
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<marcan> but most manufacturers don't know that, they just say "1W speakers so max volume is 1W RMS nominal" where "nominal" is calculated using a sine wave as it always is, and then VLC starts clipping your audio at >100% volume and that happens
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<marcan> (but that won't melt a speaker that quickly and it's not IWTLW level with VLC, Dell were also definitely overdriving them to begin with)
<Nefsen402> They 100% asked the engineers and were given two choices: Forever be hated because they nerf the loudness of their laptops or they get hated by the few that blow up their speakers
<Nefsen402> Of course engineering proper software is too hard for them
<marcan> pretty sure nobody asked anything, most laptop manufacturers just *do not care* about any of this
<marcan> some engineer somewhere put in 1W speakers and configured the amps for 1W and that's that
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<marcan> meanwhile every phone manufacturer cares about this because you have to on phones to get *any* volume out of speakers that small lol
<marcan> which is why pretty much every phone uses smart amp technology like Apple (usually done in firmware though)
<Nefsen402> Oh yeah, I'm not talking about them shipping a broken product, I'm talking about them doubling down on their broken product and voiding waranties instead
<marcan> oh yeah
<marcan> if anyone wants to learn more, marketing slides: https://www.ti.com/jp/lit/ml/slyp715/slyp715.pdf (Apple version in page 15 "non-integrated")
<marcan> and the algorithm is described here: https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slaa857/slaa857.pdf (using an iPhone 7 speaker as the example, cough cough I wonder who they were working with)
<marcan> that (well the thermal part) is what speakersafetyd implements
<marcan> (Apple don't use excursion protection, it's turned off in all their configs)
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<Nefsen402> So speakersafetyd is going above and beyond so my woofer doesn't mechanically hit the chasis?
<marcan> no, we don't do excursion protection either
<i509vcb> From what I'm reading, this is effectively controlled overdriving to make the sound louder?
<marcan> it's not "overdriving"
<marcan> speakers care about average power
<marcan> most music has a lot lower average power than the aforementioned worst-case song
<marcan> so you can play it a lot louder and not blow your speakers
<marcan> this is *especially* true once you have 2-way systems with a tweeter, since the tweeter will usually end up with a tiny fraction of the total power
<marcan> but a worst-case signal like a 5kHz square wave would send max power to the tweeter
<marcan> but that never happens with real things people listen to
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<marcan> if you were designing a system with safe absolute maximum power, like dumb amp systems, you'd have to cripple your volume to make that safe
<Nefsen402> Isn't metal music super compressed and distorted basically by default? I would think that genres like that would go a little closer to blowing things up. Is a pure full power square wave *that* much more powerful?
<marcan> yes
<marcan> very much so
<marcan> just look at the actual LUFS numbers
<marcan> -14 is the YouTube normalization standard, -9 is typical crunchy CD, -6 is where things start getting stupid, -3 is what ISTR some idiotic EDM producer boasted. IWTLW is **+3**.
<marcan> that means IWTLW is **4 times** the sound power of the idiotic EDM producer, give or take (okay LUFS isn't RMS power but you get the idea)
<marcan> but also what I said about tweeters, metal music isn't putting all its power in the tweeter range is it :p
<Nefsen402> Do they this sort of smart amp stuff with big concert installations? What if I told you you could carry around half the amount of gear for your tour if you added a bit of software?
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<marcan> yes, big speaker systems have running average power limiters of some sort
<marcan> it's different tech to the microspeaker stuff but a similar concept
<marcan> just like with macs, there's a lot of DSP and fancy processing that goes into big concert installations
<marcan> plus with a concert you know how loud you're going to be anyway, it's not like you need to handle an arbitrary input
<Nefsen402> My mind got blown when they did things like bunching up subwoofers in specific patterns to create constructive interferance and doing the naive thing of just putting two sets of subwoofer pairs for both channels at the ends of the stage makes for something that's harder to tune
<Nefsen402> and they also do DSP? I can kind understand how you need experts for that sort of thing
<marcan> of course they do DSP :)
<marcan> heck I help run some events in Spain and we have a pretty simplistic speaker array (4 points plus subwoofers) and we have a DSP rack unit for it
<marcan> and that isn't even an event where audio is particularly well done :p
<marcan> (not that I'm in charge of it either, if I were I'd care a lot more :p)
<Nefsen402> My entire audio setup is a usb headphone amp (hate onboard because you can hear static and whatever when you got the computer under load) and headphones with no DSP anywhere to be found and I'm really impressed by it. Apparently I'm left in the dust by probably 30 years
<marcan> Nefsen402: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results find your headphones there, throw the IR into a convolver plugin, and enjoy balanced sound :)
<tpw_rules> love to convolute
<Nefsen402> Ah yes, sennheiser hd 650 is listed
<Nefsen402> They got tunes for pre 2020 models? I don't know when I bought these things
<Nefsen402> Holy crap, my headphones got freaking transformed! Thanks marcan!
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<marcan> :D
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<tmbrwn> hi folks
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<ydalton> eh, i looked again at the source of speakersafetyd and it seems it doesn't "shut off" the speakers as in a previous commit, and now it sets it to a safe state (worst-case as marcan puts it)
<j`ey> ydalton: thats what I said too!
<ydalton> :D
<ydalton> it looks like that behavior changed last week, maybe i should be keeping up with the source more often...
<j`ey> ydalton: I think that's how it always worked
<ydalton> either it did change or the comment was inaccurate
<ydalton> but yeah, volume going quieter is a lot better than cutting out out of nowhere :)
<j`ey> I think maybe that comment was just there before anythign had really been written
<ydalton> yep, it dates back to the first commit
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<tmbrwn> hey folks, I'm getting back into desktop linux after a long break from it
<tmbrwn> the asahi alpha has been a lot of fun, kind of the perfect way to nudge me back into linux
<tmbrwn> I'm gonna lurk for a while, and try to see if there's a way I can help contribute to this project
<j`ey> tmbrwn: welcome
<tmbrwn> thanks
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<speee> i am fiddling around with linux for 20 years now, but it was always a big pain with the hardware! i am very happy that marcan and the asahi linux team really *care* about doing it right, so maybe i will finally be happy with hardware support on a linux machine :) thank you very much!
<speee> i will buy a m3 max studio then or something, and replace my big loud tower in the office :)
<speee> I only work in VMs, so good x86 VM support would be the last great thing i need, ARM windows does not support all apps unfortunately :-/ and UTM x86 is too slow... :(
<speee> or maybe just store a x86 server in the basement for VMs :D :D
<speee> but with energy prices these days, that is also not recommended...
<speee> but just wanted to say, i am so happy that finally someone really cares for linux on a specific range of hardware to get it done right :-)
<speee> the year of asahi linux final release is will be the year of the linux desktop as well! :)
<j`ey> UTM x86 uses qemu.. which will be the same as asahilinux
<speee> yeah, but maybe M3 will be fast enough for that. that had nothing to do with asahi, i just mentioned it!
<speee> i hope qemu can implement that x86 memory map trickery things apple does for rosetta2, so that these VMs will be faster in the future :) or maybe you can create a x86 VM with fexemu someday, which can windows x86 fast then? i dont know :)
<speee> also i hope there will be a good RDP client someday for linux, that is as fast than native on windows and supports all features of the modern rdp protocol rdp10
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<leio> try gnome-connections
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<cy8aer> marcan: thanks for AutoEq. I now have great eq settings for my HD414 (yep the yellow thingie from 1968)
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<j`ey> janneg: what's happening when I quit my WM, and go back to the tty and DCP logs a lot of stuff?
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<mkurz> Regarding the Webcam support on MacBook Pro M1 Pro 14 inch: It works for me, I also copied over the appleh13camerad file and ran asahi-fwupdate, restarted and also the calibration warnings in dmesg disappeard. However I have the feeling that the image contains"noise", compared when using macOS. Is it just a feeling or do others experience the same=
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<janneg> j`ey: whatever the dcp firmware prints to its syslog. so some logs from powering the display off and on
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<j`ey> oh, so it powers down from the WM and then back on again for the tty..?
<ChaosPrincess> mkurz: same machine, same noisy webcam
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<mkurz> ChaosPrincess: Good, so it's not just me. I guess things will improve with time...
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<kidplayer666> It's not like webcams are renown for quality anyways
<kidplayer666> and not like most videocall software even transmits at full quality...
<kidplayer666> I swear I never got any more than 480p out of Zoom on any machine, even using a full hd webcam
<kidplayer666> and the transmittion from others was always a low quality mess
<janneg> j`ey: no, I misread. swithing from WM to tty might involve a modeset. dcp should first print "set_digital_out_mode(color:111 timing:55)". numbers will differ of course
<ChaosPrincess> generic aliexpress sludge webcams - yes, whatever apple is using is actually not terrible.
<ChaosPrincess> and macos does manage to remove that noes
<ChaosPrincess> *noise
<janneg> mkurz: things will not improve by itself over time
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<kidplayer666> Chaos Princess: I've tried good webcams, with fairly high quality when run locally, but as soon as it is a video call, it's a crappy schmoo
<kidplayer666> janneg: you probably understood it, but he probably meant that eventually someone would get tired of the quality and work on it themselves
<mkurz> janneg: I know, unfortunately I am lacking the skills and time to improve such things in Asahi, that's why I donate instead.
<ChaosPrincess> kidplayer666: that noise does not seem to be a result of video compression
<kidplayer666> Also, I know it's currently not a priority (given the general state of biometrics in Linux is kinda meh), but I'm curious how hard it actually is to develop the Touch ID driver
<kidplayer666> Chaos Princess:
<kidplayer666> I know
<kidplayer666> but it doesnt matter
<kidplayer666> if it all becomes schmoo
<kidplayer666> In a video call which is where you need it
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<ChaosPrincess> are you intentionally annoying me into recording both macos and asahi, compressing it to 240p and comparing the results
<ChaosPrincess> w.r.t touch id - you can't, you need to do sep first
<j`ey> janneg: aha, a modeset, makes sense
<kidplayer666> to do sep?
<kidplayer666> Chaos Princess: well, no, but seeing that I'm annoying enough for you to go do it is fairly funny
<j`ey> kidplayer666: do sep = write a SEP driver
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<kidplayer666> as in
<kidplayer666> the hell is SEP?
<j`ey> Secure Enclave processor
<kidplayer666> ah
<kidplayer666> what i found was
<kidplayer666> well thanks
<j`ey> you wont get linux hits cos it's not on linux yet :P
<kidplayer666> and im supposing that that is the thing that throws errors
<kidplayer666> *warnings
<kidplayer666> during the recovery environment
<ChaosPrincess> yes, sep signs the boot policy and complains when there is something it does not like
<kidplayer666> Ah fun
<kidplayer666> Aaaand fedora just froze
<kidplayer666> Hopefully nothing gets borked
<kidplayer666> Otherwise I’m kinda screwed
<kidplayer666> Also, is it just me or asahi has unusually high memory consumption?
<kidplayer666> When compared to using Linux on some random laptop
<ChaosPrincess> probably gpu stealing a bit too much memory.
<kidplayer666> but it already shows off the maximum "physical memory" as being 700 mb
<ChaosPrincess> where are you getting those values from?
<kidplayer666> system monitor?
<kidplayer666> (KDE)
<kidplayer666> even htop shows these somewhat weird results
<ChaosPrincess> you have both firefox and vscode open on a 8gb machine, that doesnt look strange.
<ChaosPrincess> i _think_ whatsapp is also electron but dont quote me on that
<kidplayer666> It is
<kidplayer666> But even with everything closed
<kidplayer666> It’s 4GB plus 1,5 GB in swap
<kidplayer666> I may be not used to using KDE or gnome while on Linux
<kidplayer666> But previous encounters even with these DE’s weren’t this memory intensive
<kidplayer666> I’m pretty sure
<ChaosPrincess> booted my 8gb m1 mbp to kde with nothing open except konsole - using less than a gb, + 3-ish gb for disk cache
<kidplayer666> Also why the hell doesn’t KDE freaking let me alter the shutdown time for trackpad after typing on GUI
<kidplayer666> Weird
<ChaosPrincess> thats a libinput thing, not kde iirc
<kidplayer666> Maybe system monitor shows off cache as occupied ram?
<kidplayer666> Though htop doesn’t make it that easy to read
<ChaosPrincess> thats normal top, not htop
<ChaosPrincess> htop shows a pretty bar
<kidplayer666> Yeah ik
<kidplayer666> I mix in the two
<kidplayer666> Sorry for everyone around
<ChaosPrincess> maybe try sorting by mem% ?
<kidplayer666> Ah now it makes sense
<kidplayer666> Htop really helps
<kidplayer666> Should come in standard
<kidplayer666> Only 2.8GB are actually being used (including swap)
<kidplayer666> I’m still curious though, cause it’s not the first time I accidentally get a system crash due to running out of memory
<ChaosPrincess> you got a 8gb laptop in $CURRENT_YEAR, thats imo to be expected
<kidplayer666> yes, i know...
<kidplayer666> but a certain someone has a massive markup on selling memory upgrades
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<kidplayer666> on ma desktop i have a weird 32 GB
<kidplayer666> 28*
<kidplayer666> Chaos Princess: I'm curious though, did you check it?
<ChaosPrincess> what, camera?
<kidplayer666> yep
<kidplayer666> lol
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<ChaosPrincess> yep, noise still visible
<kidplayer666> dang
<ChaosPrincess> and it also somehow managed to sync with the light frequency and have vertical rolling dark bands
<kidplayer666> wellm them it do be a heck of a lot more than I expected
<kidplayer666> and loool
<kidplayer666> that+s some luck
<leio> isn't there some stuff to counter that? I've seen settings in some places where you tell it if you have 50Hz or 60Hz electricity (and some auto-detect)
<janneg> isp has a setting command for 50 / 60 Hz
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<Pouet78> Hello, I just discovered this project. One question I have and not in FAQ is : Does the project can be useful for Virtual Machines running on top of MacOS? If yes, is there a way to install it this way?
<ChaosPrincess> no, this project is for native hardware support, while vms emulate a "generic" arm64, not a mac. If you want to run something in a vm, just install the upstream arm64 release of your favourite distro
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<Pouet78> OK, but maybe later, vms could emulate a Mac and get benefits from there?
<Pouet78> Virtualize more than emulate in fact...
<j`ey> Pouet78: what's the goal?
<j`ey> you can already virtualize arm64 on macOS
<Pouet78> Better perfs and integration?
<Pouet78> I have no direct use for me now, just reflexions...
<j`ey> I don't think there's a benefit to be made there
<ChaosPrincess> arguably, a generic platform is better for performance since you can use paravirtualized hardware instead of emulating real one
<leio> maybe there are some small opportunities for passthrough of something specific, if anything at all
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<mkurz> Anyone using Google Pixel Buds Pro? They are working great using A2DP/AAC, however microphone is not working (HSP/HFP, no matter if using CVSD or mSBC). It seems other reporting this problem as well using Asahi: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/2689 Maybe this is a bluetooth problem?
<ah-> mkurz: i had this too in fedora with airpods pro. on ALARM it always just worked for me. I messed about with wireplumber etc. settings and then it randomly started working, but I never got down to what exactly it was
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<mkurz> ah-: you remember which settings you changed?
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<mkurz> Accordingt to https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/2689#note_2148413 it might be an Asahi bluetooth issue: "the btmon traces do not show any incoming audio data after Enhanced Setup Synchronous Connection although they should. I don't believe currently that something can be done on Pipewire side about this."
<mkurz> "Someone needs to verify if the same headset device works with a different Bluetooth adapter than on Asahi. If yes, then likely it's Asahi bluetooth kernel driver or firmware issue."
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