ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<Juest>
hey there, status on m3 and m4 support?
<Juest>
what is blocking current hardware/driver support?
<Juest>
can i put asahi in a new partition separate from the macos apfs? does resize in the installer do just that?
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<opticron>
Juest, afaik they haven't started yet, you'll see announcements when there is progress
<opticron>
also, see the topic for "Does XXX work yet?"
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<vvveapon>
I don't remember who I was talking to about it but the SuSE Signal ARM64 builds are working again :)
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<chadmed>
opticron: a cursory glance at the commit history for m1n1 and the chat logs for #asahi-dev and the fedora dev matrix channel will reveal that is false
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<Juest>
opticron: oh right, well, the condensed version of the website might need updating?
<Juest>
Also, steps for contributors?
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<chaos_princess>
do you want the status of m3 as a user, or as a dev who intends to work on it
<chaos_princess>
for the first one - nothing works, please be patient, second - its complicated
<Juest>
chaos_princess: nerd version, i have a m1 that i can install asahi to with hopes to get microphone working, what's missing there?
<chaos_princess>
which m1
<Juest>
Gotcha, for m2 onwards there's barely work done because...?
<Juest>
mba m1
<Juest>
going to purchase m3/m4 mbp 14 soon
<Juest>
and its okay if asahi wont work there yet
<Juest>
i prefer chat if you haven't noticed by the way
<chaos_princess>
i have already finished all kernel-side bits for mic support, rn we need to do mic calibration, since without it, the output is borderline useless.
<Juest>
Ah awesome
<Juest>
what's the current problem at hand?
<Juest>
is the calibration going to be consistent?
<chaos_princess>
which unfortunately i can't do personally, since turns out at least one mic out of the 3 mic array in my laptop is broken due to a factory defect
<chaos_princess>
yea, it is the same profile for all laptops of the same chassis type
<Juest>
i could do the calibration if its as easy as one command, this is a 13 inches m1 mba owned by my mom
<chaos_princess>
hahaha, no
<Juest>
crowd sourcing
<Juest>
well hey, at least if it was as easy as that you'd get more people on it
<chaos_princess>
ask chadmed as to how to do the magic
<Juest>
does it also require a quiet environment?
<chaos_princess>
not sure, but will not hurt
<Juest>
oh sure why not
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<Juest>
hmmm, also, one question, is it possible to manually install asahi or im forced to do the installer step by step stuff?
<chadmed>
use the installer, do not bother trying to do it manually
<chaos_princess>
it is strongly recommended to use the installer
<chadmed>
the installer extracts a bunch of crap out of macos IPSWs and such
<chaos_princess>
the "manual" install steps are "install a second copy of macos, use special tools to overwrite the kernel with our bootloader"
<Juest>
Oh okay, i mean i am an advanced user who wants to partition it oneself, like i want it to take separate space instead of being inside the apfs and stuff like that, i felt it wasn't clear by the installer
<Juest>
OH fun, thanks, yeah i can see why its not recommended
<chaos_princess>
the root partition is outside the apfs
<chadmed>
the apfs container is just for the "fake" macos
<Juest>
im a power user
<chadmed>
your /, ESP and /boot will be in normal GPT partitions
<Juest>
right yes
<chaos_princess>
apfs is just a boot partition, as this is the only fs type that the firmware can boot from
<chaos_princess>
somewhat like ESP on normal machines
<Juest>
so there's no support for apfs natively in linux?
<chadmed>
not really
<chaos_princess>
eh, kinda? there is some fuse thing, but can't vouch for quality or safety
<chadmed>
theres an out of tree readonly driver and a fuse driver but you cant use either to mount a /
<Juest>
i see, thanks for the explainer! so an apfs/fake macos needs to be used to chainload from mac to linux until we have full control is what i understood.
<chaos_princess>
somewhat like that, yes
<chadmed>
yeah kinda. the bootloader only has an apfs driver, so m1n1 is stored in a small apfs container that pretends to be a valid macos install for the bootloader
<Juest>
aw, is said driver very alpha quality?
<chadmed>
m1n1 then talks to the normal GPT partitions
<Juest>
because apple silicon bootloader wont take other oses than macos?
<chaos_princess>
Juest: wii custom bootloader is called mini, here custom bootloader is called m1n1, this is not a coincedence
<Juest>
:0
<chadmed>
pretty sure the commit history has survived right
<Juest>
not only that, its the same team leading this, yes?
<chaos_princess>
mostly
<Juest>
the one that done ps3, wii and switch, yes?
<Juest>
very cool, nice to meet ya
<Juest>
not sure about x360 but eh
<Juest>
alright, i'll just trust the installer and put asahi on mom's laptop to try it out.
<Juest>
as for the mic, chadmed, are the steps too complex to get a calibration done and sent?
<chadmed>
theres no real "calibration" to do for the mics actually at this stage
<chadmed>
what is required is to know the physical setup of the mic array in order to set up a basic delay-and-sum beamformer using a pipewire filter-chain
<Juest>
that's the theory... so we have to convert that into a usable calibration? hmmm
<chadmed>
once the math is done then writing up a filter chain is trivial
<chadmed>
the most important part is that each mic in the array is _exactly_ the same volume
<Juest>
i umm, i am capable but not enough for writing my own programs all by myself, i have ADD and ODD, so please understand im doing efforts to the best of my abilities
<chadmed>
its not a program its literally just json
<chadmed>
have a look at the linked repo
<PaulFertser>
Why is just recording from a single mic on MBA should be any worse than recording from a typical single omni mic as used in most cheap laptops?
<Juest>
oh heh, true, its a gist
<Juest>
hmmm a vst could be used for prototyping this actually
<chadmed>
you dont need to do that
<Juest>
like, software plugins out there
<chadmed>
we have everything wired up in pipewire
<chadmed>
just look at the linked repo it has everything you need
<Juest>
so its almost ready but marked as red because of this?
<Juest>
found it
<chaos_princess>
PaulFertser: 1. they are _super_ omnidirectional, and pick up literally everything. 2. you need to boost the raw signal by like 50db iirc, since there is no hw peamp iirc
<PaulFertser>
I mean, "the output is borderline useless" is a strong statement and it kind of implies that either that beamforming is somehow critical (for a not so obvious reason) or there's something else unexpectedely important.
<chadmed>
we dont want to release until we can support every machine we already claim to support. im not made of money and so i cant do every machine
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<chaos_princess>
when testing w/o filters, i have tested clapping as hard as i can right on top of the mic location, and it only barely moved the meters in kde panel
<Juest>
holy lol, thanks! yeah i totally understand
<chadmed>
PaulFertser: theyre tiny little PDM mics with no preamp
<PaulFertser>
chaos_princess: and with the boost it was not enough bits to be sensible? But how is beamforming helping?
<chaos_princess>
no, it is ok with boost, but again, pick up literally everything
<chadmed>
PaulFertser: [23:16] <chaos_princess> PaulFertser: 1. they are _super_ omnidirectional
<Juest>
so it is like a condenser cardioid mic?
<PaulFertser>
chadmed: guess I just don't know the typical laptop mic usecases, I kinda assumed the mic is needed for some stupid zoom meeting while you're sitting in a quiet room so omni or not is not a deal-breaker.
<chadmed>
apple make a big deal about their audio quality so unfortunately for us they really go the extra 100 billion miles to make the mics actually useful
<chadmed>
they are doing some insane dark magic to make the mic actually usefully stereo too
<chaos_princess>
they will gladly pick up nonsense like a random car passing by on a road outside the window
<chaos_princess>
granted, i live in the city, so not exactly quiet, but yea, we do not want that
<chadmed>
i understand at a superficial level how they make it all work but my fridge temp iq ass cannot implement it
<chadmed>
so what we're getting instead is a static delay and sum beamformer that assumes what you want to pick up is about where a normal person would be sitting while using the machine
<chadmed>
and the mic will be mono
<chadmed>
the downside of a delay and sum beamformer is that depending on the configuration (which is not something we can control, its dictated entirely by the geometry of the mic array) you end up with a dipole instead of a cardioid
<PaulFertser>
It's just that I've recently used a tiny omni microphone that was very sensitive and required plenty of boost https://www.adafruit.com/product/3421 . I wouldn't mind having that in my laptop.
<chadmed>
yes that is a PDM mic
<chadmed>
the macs have three of them
<chaos_princess>
you are always welcome to compile the dev branch and throw on the boost yourself
<chaos_princess>
it is just we will not be shipping it
<chadmed>
when the software is free and open source
<PaulFertser>
It was pretty good for this art project: https://archive.is/D91dK . A single mic inside picking conversations at random places.
<Juest>
ikr :D
<chadmed>
Juest: its not a condenser cardioid at all, it is three perfectly omnidirectional PDM mics
<chadmed>
what the beamforming does is _try_ to make it into a cardioid
<Juest>
OH! i see, i was just comparing as it picks up everything
<Juest>
oooh neat
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<Juest>
i apologize if i seem annoying or a waste of time, i am genuinely not trying to do that
<chadmed>
it has not been particularly successful so far unfortunately and so far no one with any better ideas has stepped up
<chadmed>
nah youre alright :)
<Juest>
hmm, any way we can decouple apple's implementation somehow?
<chaos_princess>
wdym?
<chadmed>
we dont care about apples implementation at all
<chadmed>
we are doing something completely different
<chaos_princess>
you mean steal their filter chain?
<chadmed>
and if you meant ^ then absolutely not
<chaos_princess>
not quite possible even if we wanted to since it has filter code, not just static configuration
<chadmed>
their DSP code is 100 million trillion billion percent off limits
<Juest>
:D not necessarily meaning that but like why not follow apple impl since it seems good enough?
<Juest>
my idea is like, try to replicate it by cancelling the mic with a filter plugin
<chadmed>
because that would involve reversing and reimplementing copyrighted/proprietary code where the entire implementation is likely an encumbered algorithm
<Juest>
there might be something simpler we can do after managing to cancel it entirely, just a thought on approach
<chaos_princess>
delay and sum is "something simpler" :P
<chadmed>
there is literally nothing simpler that could possibly work with the physical realities of the microphone array than what we are currently trying to do
<chadmed>
you cant just put a "noise cancelling" plugin on it, a) no good ones exist, b) the crap ones drink waaaaay too much power to be always-on, c) thats putting the cart before the horse
<Juest>
oh okay, was just exploring possibilities
<chadmed>
we are at a level below noise-cancelling/eq plugins and such right now. we are trying to make three omnidirectional ultra-sensitive PDM microphones look like a single dynamic mic of reasonable sensitivity and pickup pattern
<chadmed>
it is then up to the user/whatever applications they are using to further process that signal as required
<Juest>
that sounds like a good vanilla aim that works for everyone :)
<Juest>
thanks for taking your time to explain
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<Seti_>
Hey guys so I have a bit of a newbie question, the gcc supplied with fedora asahi compiles to aarch64 that the arm macs can run unless specified otherwise (right?). If there is a programme I wanna use that doesnt have a aarch package or binary then I should be able to compile it myself assuming I have the source code?
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<Seti_>
and assuming it isnt making use of inline x86 assembly (or maybe modern compilers can handle even that?!)
<j`ey>
yes
<j`ey>
no, compilers don't handle that though (the inline asm part)
<Seti_>
Ok! Yeah that would be pretty crazy, recompiling x86 to aarch but at the risk of going offtopic, it sounds like it would be theoretically possible with big caveats?
<chaos_princess>
Is is practically possible, we have an x86 emulator that mostly works
<chaos_princess>
but yes, there are caveats
<chaos_princess>
If you have sources, i would strongly recommend to recompile.
<Juest>
hmmm, how good is it compared to rosetta 2?
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<chaos_princess>
Good enough to run cyberpunk and ghostrunner 2
<Seti_>
chaos_princess: Thats pretty cool! It interprets x86 into aarch64 then?
<Juest>
how about cinebench or something?
<j`ey>
Seti_: it would be like merging a compiler and an emulator
<j`ey>
Seti_: it also has a JIT
<Seti_>
thats even cooler
<chaos_princess>
Seti_: something like that, it recompiles on the fly
<Seti_>
is the emulator available as a programme or package that is readily available right now?
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<Juest>
question, what are the differences between the server and minimal installs? how large are the DEs? i have put ~24gb of space for asahi, is that alright?
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<chaos_princess>
24 would be kinda cramped imo
<Juest>
ouch, its already a cramped system
<Juest>
i think its 512gb
<Juest>
its the m1 mba 2020 base configuration iirc
<Juest>
or the one with 512gb i dont remember
<chaos_princess>
nah, apple will sell you a 256gb one :P
<Juest>
lol
<chaos_princess>
id say go with 60-ish gb at least
<Juest>
hmm, i'll resize it later then
<Juest>
bare minimum with experiments would you say that's good?
<Juest>
im back home, macbook is at parents
<Juest>
i only irc from my home computer
<Juest>
can we either rename or remove the mention of armcord?
<chaos_princess>
huh?
<Juest>
armcord is according to arm infringing copyright so it was renamed to legocord
<jnn>
i hope LEGO doesn't hear about this
<Juest>
oh dear
<chaos_princess>
where do we even mention armcord, is it on wiki or where?
<Juest>
well, its mentioned in the faq at the bottom
<Juest>
gh docs for asahi
<Juest>
discord uses electron anyways
<Juest>
so it'll be fine to mention
<chaos_princess>
its a wiki, you can just edit it :P
<Juest>
github wikis are not normal wikis
<Juest>
cool, that worked
<Juest>
you're welcome
<Juest>
i found the installer resize a bit confusing in terms of specifying the size
<Juest>
does that make sense? in other words that the wording for the numbered resize option description is confusing
<Juest>
i inputted 300gb for macos and it didnt let me
<Juest>
do i have to use disk utility or can i reuse the installer if i already resized but changed my mind?
<chaos_princess>
what did it say?
<Juest>
i dont remember, but it just bailed
<Juest>
i have ADD
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<chaos_princess>
then do it again
<chaos_princess>
or look in console history
<chaos_princess>
it should tell you exactly what it disliked
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<Juest>
will do!
<Juest>
thanks
<chaos_princess>
18:47:40 <Juest>im back home, macbook is at parents - are you using ssh?
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<Juest>
no chaos_princess, i was physically at the computer
<chaos_princess>
ok, fine then
<chaos_princess>
(it is impossible to install over ssh, thats why i was asking)
<Juest>
i was there earlier
<Juest>
what are the issues with ssh currently?
<chaos_princess>
there are no issues, it is just impossible for security reasons, authorizing an install requires physical presence
<Juest>
oh right, so it prompts something on the physical machine or...?
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<Juest>
it _could_ be done over ssh
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<Juest>
unless it's intentionally set to have a authorization without remote access at some point
<chaos_princess>
no, hard-impossible. you need to hold power button for 10 seconds from cold boot to enter a privileged recovery mode (which does not have ssh), and enter machine owner password there
<Juest>
oh, well it doesnt have filevault enabled
<chaos_princess>
does not matter, still needs to be done from 1tr, and still needs to enter password
<Juest>
i see
<Juest>
should i run the script from recovery instead of from macos?
<chaos_princess>
does not matter
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<chaos_princess>
if you run it from macos, or from recovery, but not in 1tr mode, it will give you instructions on how to reboot to 1tr when it needs to do step2
<Juest>
okay, and if i do it from itr?
<chaos_princess>
or even in 1tr too, since you will need to boot a paired recovery which will not exist at the start of the installation
<chaos_princess>
forgot about that bit
<Juest>
oh interesting
<Juest>
great apple, now software needs pairing? :P
<Juest>
mocking because of the fact they now have displays, touchid/faceid pairing, etc
<Juest>
even are picky with storage
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