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<dolphin>
mripard, sima: Any continuation to the above discussion about cgroups?
<mripard>
dolphin: none that I'm aware of
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<dolphin>
My understanding also aligned with that dmem is only for device memory and system memory usage should come via the existing tracking.
<mripard>
can you define "system memory" ?
<dolphin>
I think it's bit biased by my understanding is anything that would contend for same backing store resources as malloc()
<dolphin>
If it's carved out and can never be utilized as regular system memory, then it's not system memory but special memory.
<sima>
mripard, was pondering our discussion a bit more, and I feel like looking at this from the pov of what a distro would need to auto-config limits could help move this forward?
<sima>
and it should work for dgpu, igpu with shmem, igpu with split display/render and also dma_alloc with cma or true carve-out
<sima>
and also not fall over stuff like userptr I guess
<mripard>
dolphin: the issue is whether an allocation goes through dmem or memcg in such a case is defined by the platform, the (physical) device, the firmware version, and the (struct) device
<sima>
so starting with the use-case and not starting with a specific solution for tracking/enforcing limits
<mripard>
so it's impossible to get stable accounting across devices and across kernel or firmware upgrades
<sima>
yeah, hence why I feel like stable account won't cut it, and we need to solve the auto-config situation
<sima>
or at least be able to
<sima>
while still allowing custom-tailoring ofc, but that's always possible simply by having an enforcement control
<mripard>
I mean, it's possible to have stable account if we use dmem for it, no matter what the backing store is
<sima>
nope
<dolphin>
but the whole point of cgroups is to avoid the backing store contention?
<sima>
not if you also want to solve memcg enforcement, which you have to because userptr is a thing
<sima>
userptr or svm or hmm or whatever
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<dolphin>
if you have configured your system memory limits nicely, can't just have somebody wreak a havoc by allocating system memory bypassing?
<sima>
so trying to solve this with dmem only wont cut it
<sima>
yup exactly this issue
<sima>
"everything dmem" just falls apart in other ways, but it also falls apart
<mripard>
I mean, I did say we had to account for it in both memcg and dmem for system memory to avoid that issue in particular
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<mripard>
so I agree, and it's something we can fix
<dolphin>
I think double-accounting was shot down as a concept very early
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<sima>
yeah, that's really messy
<sima>
especially with big gpu where malloc vs gem_bo alloc is somewhat interchangeable
<sima>
and so for the same workload but different allocator approach you'd need wildly varying dmem limits
<sima>
plus I think tejun was fairly strongly opposed to a dmem that just equals system memory as a general thing that malloc() also uses
<sima>
I think it was more murky for tracking cma regions, but there you still have the double-accounting mess
<mripard>
it's really awesome how everybody complains now that it works for Xe
<sima>
xe doesn't do enforcing yet I think, and it still doesn't track system memory
<mripard>
but you know, were dead silent when I was very vocal about what I wanted to do but it wasn't merged yet
<sima>
so only "works" in a pr sense :-)
<sima>
it was a tiny, tiny first step
<sima>
mripard, xe has not precluded any decision on system memory tracking at all, that's all still open
<sima>
at least wrt upstream no regressions promises
<mripard>
it evidently did if Tejun was strongly opposed to it, and if it was completely obvious that this approach wouldn't fly
<sima>
well it's not completely obvious
<sima>
but over the years there developed a fairly strong consensus that at least for "normal" system memory, double accounting is not good
<sima>
except defining what "normal" is and how to do the accounting of it precisely without gaps is still really hard and unsolved
<sima>
I don't think we've ever gotten to a consensus whether cma is "normal" or not
<sima>
there's also the mess of ttm swapping out stuff to system memory
<sima>
which practically needs a memcg aware shrinker of gem_bo caches
<sima>
which ... is also a really hard problem
<sima>
that's why for now we didn't try with an enforcing limit for dmem, because currently we just cannot
<sima>
at least for ttm drivers
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<sima>
or maybe more correct, dgpu drivers with vram that do swap-out to system memory
<mripard>
I'm sorry, I feel like I'm being gaslighted here. Is what I want to do welcome or not?
<mripard>
because if it's isn't, I'm not going to waste any more time than I already did on it
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<mripard>
and if it is, I don't want to discover *again* a year from now that I was used to rework the DMA API but that everybody knew that it wouldn't work
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<sima>
mripard, so still haven't caught up on mails, but it is
<sima>
it's just a really hard issue with ongoing discussions among various people over years
<sima>
and not really anything documented anywhere as a todo
<sima>
we should probably fix that
<sima>
I think we've gone over the "dmem for everything gpu" design about pre-covid over 1-2 years until consensus moved towards "eh, nope"
<mripard>
then if it's welcome, what are we discussing here really?
<sima>
ah now, sunsetting "dmem for everything" happened at lpc dublin in 22
<mripard>
(and ftr, I definitely doesn't want it to be limited to GPUs)
<sima>
mripard, I guess sharing the lore?
<sima>
which really should be documented somewhere instead of just shared in convos
<mripard>
limiting it to GPUs is pointless to me anyway
<sima>
oh yeah we agreed to that long ago
<sima>
I more meant dmem to track these kind of memory allocations
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<sima>
T.J. Mercier was involved in a lot of these discussions years ago, but I think he moved on from this
<sima>
but helps finding some of the old rfcs
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<sima>
android has the added fun of having to transfer the charges
<mripard>
I'm sorry, I don't understand what that whole story is about then. I want to be able to track and limit DMA allocations consistently, so we can enforce those limits at the application level. You've been telling me yesterday and this morning that we can't and everybody disagrees. But now you're telling me that no, of course it's doable?
<sima>
neither
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<sima>
I'm trying to tell you that it's _really_ hard
<sima>
and that there's like 5 years of design discussion in this space
<sima>
so it's neither a yes, nor a no, and definitely not a "of course it's doable" because I'm not sure what it should even look like exactly
<sima>
hence my suggestion that maybe we should start documenting the discussions and ideas thus far somewhere, maybe in a todo upstream rst doc
<sima>
since currently that's just floating around in a bunch of heads
<sima>
wrt the overall goal, that's at least a 15 year old todo item
<sima>
that = tracking dma allocations of heavy users like gpu
<sima>
or even just allocations really, since the entire dma-api or not thing is a bit an internal implementation detail
<mripard>
again, what is the message there? I evidently wasn't at those discussions, nor was I told what the content was, so it's not like I can do it myself. And if it's a "it's hard don't try" message, it was effective. If it was a "it's hard, you got this", it wasn't.
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<sima>
I'm aiming for "it's really hard but worth to try"
<sima>
and I can help with digging out all the details that we should press into a todo doc
<sima>
essentially I've been trying to backfill you on these past years of discussions
<sima>
but yesterday I was really busy, so it was probably too stressed on my side
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<sima>
mripard, heading out for lunch now, but my proposal would be I dig through all the opens
<sima>
fish out m-l references where they exist
<sima>
and you type it up since that's the best way to make sure I've successfully explained it?
<sima>
or I guess plan B is I typed it up, but in the past that was just really long chats with people individually ...
<sima>
from the top of my head tj mercier, tejun, mlankhorst, thellstrom, christian könig were the main folks involved thus far in the various discussions
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* sima
quickly scribbled a page full of notes
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<tomba>
Could someone have a look at "[PATCH v10 00/13] drm/bridge: cdns-dsi: Fix the color-shift issue"? I think it's ready to merge, and it's mostly small cdns dsi bridge related stuff, but there's the "drm/atomic-helper: Re-order bridge chain pre-enable and post-disable"...
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<alyssa>
glehmann: ah, right
<alyssa>
yeah so that should help with dxvk
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<sima>
tomba, looks reasonable, but might be good to update the kerneldoc for these hooks to explain that they wrap both encoder and crtc enabling and disabling? with that a-b: me
<sima>
but would be good to have an ack from mripard and pinchartl too
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<tomba>
sima: hmm you mean the kernel docs for drm_atomic_helper_commit_modeset_enables and drm_atomic_helper_commit_modeset_disables?
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<sima>
nah, for drm_bridge_funcs.(atomic_)_pre_enable|post_disable docs
<sima>
maybe also the enable/disable ones
<sima>
right now they only reference the encoder hooks, and very intentionally not the crtc hooks too
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<sima>
since we kinda assumed encoder hooks are what enable the pipe to the bridge, and crtc is a driver implementation detail
<sima>
so essentialyl change all these to "both $encoder_hook and $crtc_hook" instead of just "$encoder_hook" across the boarde
<sima>
plus probably some rewording since if you do this mechanically the sentences likely become unreadable
<sima>
tomba, the two functions you mentioned don't talk about bridges specifically, so I don't think those need to be updated
<tomba>
sima: ok, so essentially also describe in the bridge enable/disable hook docs how the bridge hook is called in relation to the crtc hooks?
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<tomba>
aradhya shows it in the patch desc, but indeed it's not really visible in the docs afaics
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<sima>
tomba, yup, we need to keep the docs accurate to the new reality
<tomba>
sima: and just to be sure we have the same understanding, the "new reality" means something that happened before this series, as this series only switches the order how the hooks are called?
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<sima>
tomba, well that switch itself is substantial and is what I think should be documented
<sima>
since we switch from just wrapping the encoder hooks to wrapping both crtc and encoder hooks
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<tomba>
sima: no disagreement on the documentation. but I'm having some trouble understand what you mean here. what do you mean with "wrapping"? don't we "just" change the sequence of the hook calls?
<sima>
I think we're saying the same
<sima>
currentl the bridge hooks are only before/after encoder hooks
<sima>
with that patch they're before/after both crtc and encoder hooks
<sima>
so they "wrap" a different set of hooks
<tomba>
alright =)
<sima>
maybe I'm too math brained, it's all funny spaces to me anyway
<sima>
so maybe I see a lot more things you can wrap than others
<sima>
maybe surround instead of wrap is more what you're thinking of?
<tomba>
yes =)
<tomba>
sima: Thanks for review, I'll ping Aradhya to do the updates.
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<sima>
tomba, thx
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<tomba>
I'm not sure why I didn't get what you meant with "wrap", now it sounds logical. In my defense, I have been debugging DSI for 10 hours today...
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<Ermine>
the more docs the better
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<marmelademan>
We are getting old enough to not deal with rooster violators like you offer on your channels. Undoudedly a biggest case of stupidity using abuse against me, i am glad to see you all thrown out of the window panes soon to follow up our local "heros" who delegated the scams and abuse. They seem to be as terrible as you in that regard. They get all captured one after another and treated by
<marmelademan>
force.
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<marmelademan>
It's entirely rage and maddness based events, i could say that even one day i could not rest or breathe air without roosters picking a worldwide conflict from my lines, but at the same time you should realize you were entirely incorrect on the memory management and execution of code anyhow, and it's not fair to say anything other good to those persons either, since the buthcering abuse
<marmelademan>
was their biggest so called achievements, cause such people do not work neither they performed in other events, it was such a bullshit absurd, that they did not even had resillience to try or say capability a total bogus, by wank spam and abuse scam spam that is not how champions or rulers should be added to our society.
<marmelademan>
I suppose before you talk to another person on such tone of critical abuse, you might as well got to be someone too.
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<tjaalton>
amber is still trying to dlopen libglapi, but it's gone with the move to libgallium.. should amber build it's own libglapi then?
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<tjaalton>
or disable shared-glapi perhaps
<tjaalton>
well that doesn't build
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<analogradiotune>
Western world more accurately Europe was in fact behind this steroid abuse, as i said, they have human carriers for more purer substances of such. So you are bragging with things that never belonged to you and are illegal by laws, no wonder that wars happen with such betrayals. Once the source of steroids is taken from you, you are nobody again.
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<dj-death>
Company: I guess it should be drm_mod_props.data()