<Not-b5c9>
[haiku/website] humdingerb pushed 1 commit to master [+3/-0/±0] https://git.io/JGIMB
<Not-b5c9>
[haiku/website] humdingerb 1c1a2ed - Blog: "Registering your nickname for IRC"
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
humdinger: you made a typo, s/indentify/identify
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<kallisti5>
Hello my fellow Europeans
<AlwaysLivid>
Hello, kallisti5!
<kallisti5>
doin' work stuff, so awake at 2:30am :-)
<yann64[m]>
Morning
<AlwaysLivid>
East Coast? kallisti5
<AlwaysLivid>
why did i capitalize this
<AlwaysLivid>
for that i'll never know
<kallisti5>
Texas Coast
<kallisti5>
Well... actually Central Texas
<AlwaysLivid>
... Oh, you're *8* hours behind me.
<AlwaysLivid>
Sorry, for some reason my computers randomly decided to adjust to the UTC timezone.
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<lorglas>
hi, i have in my printing function maxpages, lastpage and firstpage calculated. I want to ask the user wihich pages he want to print. example Document has 10 Pages, he say from 4 to 8. How to generate this dialog?
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<B2IA>
(countryboy) hello good people
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<B2IA>
(countryboy) hello from beshare !!!
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<ScottPuopolo>
hello countryboy
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<B2IA>
(countryboy) hello scottpuopolo ...
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<B2IA>
(countryboy) sun time ... + coffee ...
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<AlwaysLivid>
can os-prober in linux systems discover haiku?
<AlwaysLivid>
friend of mine tried that, didn't work, this seems to be the case
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<BlueSky71>
AlwaysLivid: Last time I tried os-prober did not discover my haiku installation. That was about 1,5 years ago and the Linux system was Mint 20 (I think)
<BlueSky71>
Had to configure grub manually which on a Debian based system is more complicated than it should be in my opinion
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<BlueSky71>
By the way, does anybody know why I am suddenly BlueSky71 even though I have the nickname configured to BlueSky76 in my IRC client (weechat)?
<BlueSky71>
I feel old enough as it is, no need to make me 5 years older ;-)
<AlwaysLivid>
BlueSky71, that's most likely a thing on the end of your client.
<AlwaysLivid>
If a user is not identified in time, they get a random Guest username (as far as I know).
<BlueSky71>
Yeah, I think so too, gotta wade through the weechat documentation
<BlueSky71>
That could be the reason too. I´m not yet registered on oftc. Will try that first, thanks for the hint!
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<extrowerk>
BlueSky71: but we can think that number is your ACTUAL age, so it makes you younger, right?
<Guest3>
BlueSky71: were you connected, disconnected, and reconnected before BlueSky76 timed out?
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<mmu_man>
Haiku Gerrit is requesting additional permissions
<mmu_man>
hmm, oh, it didn't have the mail yet?
<AlwaysLivid>
mmu_man, it just seems to be the e-mail(s), which you'd already set either way i think
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<kallisti5[m]>
mmu_man: Yeah, something about the new oauth plugin for github
<kallisti5[m]>
We have had a lot of issues with gerrit not knowing people's emails in the past
<kallisti5[m]>
I'm guessing this will fix it. Gerrit no longer requires you to have a "public" email at github to pull your info
<ConditionBoy>
for those who have seen the appmenu thing i've been working on, any suggestions for submitting it?
<ConditionBoy>
or sharing it or its products to others?
<ConditionBoy>
like, should i start a new topic on the mailing list and write up a guide on how it currently works?
<ConditionBoy>
or should i just push all the relevant files?
<ConditionBoy>
or should i also push some of the files i've changed in other apps that use it on my system?
<ConditionBoy>
i don't want to step on anyone's toes, but i'm also excited to move forward with this idea
<AlwaysLivid>
someone really who is much more established than me should really give that proposal some love and attention ^^^
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<BrunoSpr>
hello all... I copied some files from the system folder to the home folder because the system folder is not writeable... but it still does not work?! What did I do wrong? I need some icons from the scribus 1.5.0 version in scribus 1.5.1 version... See example: http://0x0.st/-2Nz.png
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
testing fluffychat
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
okay its a nice matrix client
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<bitigchi>
ConditionBoy: just submit it to gerrit
<bitigchi>
that way everyone can review it and give feedback
<AlwaysLivid>
Yeah, that's also indeed the most efficient way to grab attention based on my experience because a considerable amount of people also don't look or read at the mailing list.
<AlwaysLivid>
(But do it for one app, listen to feedback and maybe link back to the mail itself too :D)
<AlwaysLivid>
That wasn't the case for another friend, but I improved it and made a detailed analysis as to whether using Linux or Haiku for developing Haiku is a good idea.
<bitigchi>
useful things are always very hidden
<PulkoMandy>
that was bolted on the website and not linked in anywhere else in the website
<AlwaysLivid>
It's not just there.
<AlwaysLivid>
Wait, I can include that in Development, you're right
<bitigchi>
"Development" should just link to the dev portal...
<bitigchi>
and everything should be there
<AlwaysLivid>
look, i'm doing all of this primarily alone
<bitigchi>
i know, it's not towards you
<bitigchi>
i'm just stating
<AlwaysLivid>
not because i want to or because the site is my self-proclaimed turf or something, but i'm doing my best and it would really be helpful if others chimed in too to be honest
<AlwaysLivid>
you'd also have to take care of redirects too
<bitigchi>
Familiarize yourself with Gerrit, our code collaboration tool, and fetch a copy of the Haiku source code. - getting the source code is apparently here
<AlwaysLivid>
alright, we should add the guide to the list in development
<AlwaysLivid>
I left in a typo too
<bitigchi>
Maybe renaming the above link to just "Get the source code" would be more on point? :)
<bitigchi>
kind of all the details come with the package
<AlwaysLivid>
I am not touching these because redirects are a bit of a chore and there's so many things to take care of.
<AlwaysLivid>
I'll do that after I considerably improve the content before touching the strucutre
<AlwaysLivid>
"Getting the source code" -> "Get the source code & Pushing patches 101" ?
<AlwaysLivid>
I can change the title, in this case.
<bitigchi>
makes sense
<AlwaysLivid>
"Get the Haiku Source Code / Pushing Patches to Haiku 101"
<AlwaysLivid>
These two articles will need to be separated, but this will do for now.
<AlwaysLivid>
jesus christ, this is worse than i thought and right now i'm violating my rule of not getting way too many things mixed up
<bitigchi>
:))
<bitigchi>
i feel you
<AlwaysLivid>
No, all of this is really way easier said than done and I can't say that I am frustrated that nobody seems to care about this enough, particularly because I'm surprised that all of this has been neglected for over a decade.
<AlwaysLivid>
At least I'm right here, right now.
<AlwaysLivid>
Noting "move /building to /guides/building" in the back of my head.
<AlwaysLivid>
Wait, I got it mixed up, it's already there.
<AlwaysLivid>
I really hope that I won't just introduce a bigger mess as a result of me trying to clean this.
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<AlwaysLivid>
It would really be helpful to either come to some sort of conclusion or plan as to what should be done and _how_ in a precise manner, or let it be and let me do all the work. Otherwise, this will just bring me a lot of confusion and conflict and lead me to do what I'm trying to do in a much less efficient manner and mess everything up.
<bitigchi>
AlwaysLivid: you might want to ask this in the website mailing list
<AlwaysLivid>
there's a website mailing list??????
<AlwaysLivid>
you've got to be kidding me
<bitigchi>
i can't comment but i believe someone will definitely comment
<bitigchi>
there is
<AlwaysLivid>
honestly just naming all the things that are wrong with the website is the most useful piece of feedback that i could possibly ever get
<AlwaysLivid>
my approach is 'clarify the content and what there is on the website first' (instead of the secret easter egg sort of thing as if this is a videogame) and then move websites and stuff
<AlwaysLivid>
can't categorize things if we have no clear view of what we're categorizing
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<BrunoSpr>
thank you all for not helping...
<AlwaysLivid>
but i don't know how to answer
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<BrunoSpr>
ah ok np
<BrunoSpr>
Should be made clear to the user how to use non-packaged files. or how to make non-writable systemfiles writable in the home folder, and where the files belong to.
<AlwaysLivid>
there's a chance that you may get better help at a time when the IRC is more active or in the community forums, BrunoSpr
<AlwaysLivid>
can't guarantee anything though
<BrunoSpr>
Maybe there is a readme already, somewhere... over the rainbow...
<BrunoSpr>
AlwaysLivid... yes I know...
<AlwaysLivid>
just bringing this up because it's just 3 people right now on here
<BrunoSpr>
Sometimes I hope the devs read the log-files...
<BrunoSpr>
how do you know?
<BrunoSpr>
user 124 I see?
<BrunoSpr>
where do you read it is only 3?
<BrunoSpr>
hmmm
<BrunoSpr>
?
<AlwaysLivid>
i feel like you're being aggressive at me, i'm just trying to be helpful
<BrunoSpr>
Anyway... I posted a report on HaikuPorts too...
<AlwaysLivid>
not every single one of them gets notifications, many people use bouncers or leave their clients open, etc.
<BrunoSpr>
no sorry nothing to do with you
<BrunoSpr>
all ok, I am just a bit anoyed because I still do not understand the writable and non-writable thing on Haiku...
<BrunoSpr>
but so many?
<BrunoSpr>
how comes?
<BrunoSpr>
So there are more people on Telegram?
<AlwaysLivid>
the problem is that your file is still not writable, right?
<AlwaysLivid>
even after copying and pasting it in a different directory
<BrunoSpr>
yes somehow... I copied some files from the system folder to home
<AlwaysLivid>
i am not sure if that's what it is, but i'd check the properties of the file and whether it's read-only. you can also apply permissions to individual files
<AlwaysLivid>
didn't quite understand the question earlier
<BrunoSpr>
and now I do not know where they belong to to make them proprior
<BrunoSpr>
Scribus tries to load some files from the system folder...
<AlwaysLivid>
moving a file to a different directory may not change some specific properties that are specific to the file itself
<BrunoSpr>
I thought I move some data files from Scribus to config/data/non-packaged to copy thelm
<BrunoSpr>
them
<BrunoSpr>
I think too. Only program files moved to non-packaged will load or some libs
<BrunoSpr>
I have to read and ask more about this problem
<BrunoSpr>
investigate
<BrunoSpr>
thx AlwaysLivid
<BrunoSpr>
There are files missing in Scribus and I try to copy the missing files
<BrunoSpr>
but these files are in the system folder
<BrunoSpr>
I like Scribus works... So Haiku is useful for the user!
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<Animortis>
Here's a question: Anyone know Agile?
<Animortis>
Kinda digging around, wondering if a user story backlog weighted in iteration periods might help...
<IoannisCherouvim[m]>
<Animortis "Kinda digging around, wondering "> What really helps is having eager and technically competent people doing the work.
<Animortis>
I don't think that's a problem, really. Though I'm going to heads-down this week and get our PR strategy together so we can run more promotions
<Animortis>
I want to attract more devs
<Animortis>
Using an Agile system migh attract some too. But I'm really, really, not going to push that. Just throwing it out.
<_Dario_>
100% agree, IoannisCherouvim[m]
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
please do not do this by creating further competitions when we do not have the capacity or the systems required to follow up to the promises that have been made, that seriously risks throwing our reputation under the bus
<AlwaysLivid>
like, i'm seriously very worried about this personally
<Animortis>
Can you elaborate?
<AlwaysLivid>
the sound system competition when the haiku developers had not implemented support for sounds nor had that feature way up in their priorities
<Animortis>
Ah. No, we're just going to try to raise awareness of the project.
<IoannisCherouvim[m]>
<Animortis "Using an Agile system migh attra"> Not sure what the situation is, but my opinion is that devs are generally not attracted by the term Agile.
<Animortis>
Yeah I'm not pushing anything on an Agile system
<Animortis>
Just curious
<AlwaysLivid>
Animortis, "Hey, we WILL include the sounds in the system, but we even cannot be sure when or how" is definitely not the right approach from my perspective. I would personally be annoyed if I found that my work had been neglected for more than a year or two or maybe two releases.
<Animortis>
I get what you're saying
<Animortis>
That effort pre-dates me
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<AlwaysLivid>
I am really not sure whether I can propose a better solution, but this seems implicitly destructive in any other way other than "all publicity is good publicity".
<AlwaysLivid>
For now, I'm trying my best to improving the website as far as the content is concerned. I also asked another of youse whether you could work on doing something similar for the Promotions site, because I decided not to intervene because I felt like that would be like I'd be infringing on something that's basically your turf.
<Animortis>
So it's basically finding our target audiences and tailoring news about Haiku toward those audiences to peak their interest
<AlwaysLivid>
I had a few ideas on that.
<Animortis>
I'm actually trying to locate the promo team site. We mostly communicate on the forums
<AlwaysLivid>
Tons of misorganized historical details that are important but scattered over the place, no headers, the "send a PM to jt15s" before providing a general idea as to what needs to be done to the reader puts people off
<Animortis>
I can share with jt15s about your concerns with the promo team site
<zdykstra>
pique, not peak
<Animortis>
Thank you! I was actually thinking about that.
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<zdykstra>
English is full of hateful homophones
<Animortis>
It is
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<AlwaysLivid>
You're going in detail about all of these plans when the site basically falls under the category of "Getting Involved"
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<Animortis>
I can talk to jt15s about moving things around a bit
<Animortis>
I think we should move the lede up, actually, and have the "joining" part higher...
<AlwaysLivid>
and the "Businesses" part feels out of place. the ways Haiku can be useful to different entities should probably have its own page, maybe in About?
<AlwaysLivid>
the members should go a bit further down IMHO
<Animortis>
So on the promotions site, that's identifying audiences for messaging. I don't think that needs anything other than the list.
<AlwaysLivid>
that we can agree on :)
<Animortis>
I'm not sure that should be on the public-facing page though
<Animortis>
What I can say on that is he did good work really improving the original content of the page, which was quite dated.
<AlwaysLivid>
yeahhhhhhh
<Animortis>
I'd move some graphs around
<AlwaysLivid>
the vast majority of the website has been dated for over a decade
<AlwaysLivid>
apart from some parts that date back to 2015
<Animortis>
And maybe bring some stuff out. I know the audiences component is going into the PR strategic report I'm trying to finish if I can stop getting sick.
<Animortis>
So maybe we can winnow that down
<AlwaysLivid>
I had a few ideas for attracting developers, including: showcasing the kind of stuff Haiku can run, video production, taking some sort of responsibility as far as the social media accounts are concerned and directly interacting with users
<AlwaysLivid>
and maybe deviate from what other projects do and, not just treat, say, twitter, as an extravagant RSS feed or something
<AlwaysLivid>
I also had the idea of frequently presenting easy tasks that people can work on with Haiku and release that in a recurring manner. It's just that I am mostly not sure whether I can do that reliably on a weekly or biweekly basis.
<AlwaysLivid>
people are automatically intimidated by haiku because it's an 'operating system' and operating systems are scary to people
<Animortis>
Yeah understood
<AlwaysLivid>
'i'm not good enough, i am not sure whether my skills can actually match up to what's necessary', etc. etc. etc., which is also why i didn't contribute for a long time until i was presented with the opportunity to do so personally
<Animortis>
Some of those things I can't touch yet because I've only been involved like a month :)
<AlwaysLivid>
that's fair, welcome :D
<AlwaysLivid>
but yeah, there's generally a lot of imposter syndrome going on, and that needs to be shot down
<Animortis>
I'd love to go crazy with the Twitter feed. But would you give the project's twitter feed to someone who just got here?
<Animortis>
Anyway, yeah I see.
<_Dario_>
I guess one of the relevant aspects to attract devs is the fact that in Haiku there is a lot ot things to do
<AlwaysLivid>
Yup!
<Animortis>
Maybe we can add "devs on the fence" to the list of audiences
<Animortis>
I think, and I don't want to go there, but I feel like a project backlog wouldn't hurt.
<Animortis>
That's my PM side poking out
<Animortis>
I should stick to my lane though
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<_Dario_>
I mean, is not like in Windows or Linux, that are big and already settled proyects
<_Dario_>
where almost all components are mature, and probably you will not have enough "place" to create new things
<AlwaysLivid>
https://twitter.com/haikuOS, it is currently controlled by waddlesplash. I am not sure what he'd think of experiments that are meant to increase our engagement with different circles (including developer circles) and directly asking users (including people who tweet about haiku) for feedback
<Animortis>
Community building involves asking people to contribute to it. What better than an open source project for that sort of thing?
<AlwaysLivid>
i've ran some social media accounts before and, generally, breaking the fourth wall seemed to be effective in my case. i'm also very intrigued by the approach taken by ReactOS, which is specifically use social media channels to highlight the progress made to the system
<AlwaysLivid>
as in, they tweeted about getting React running on the original Xbox, and that led up to me telling PulkoMandy that I'm now interested in checking them out and contributing for a bit or something
<Animortis>
Yeah that absolutely makes sense
<AlwaysLivid>
on the contrary, debian and gentoo, for example, still just mostly use twitter as an rss feed with some extra personalized community announcements
<AlwaysLivid>
but they're debian and gentoo
<Animortis>
Right
<AlwaysLivid>
if social media can overturn elections and threaten democracies and national infrastructure, why can it not be beneficial to a fun little operating system with tons of things to do :)
<AlwaysLivid>
I always hear, like, "wow, I didn't know that Haiku could run LibreOffice, this is awesome!"
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<Animortis>
Well, that's a "stay tuned" sort of thing lol
<AlwaysLivid>
i strongly believe haiku could definitely do better as far as that front is concerned
<AlwaysLivid>
are you familiar with SerenityOS, for example? Animortis
<Animortis>
I know the name but haven't run it
<Animortis>
Googling...
<AlwaysLivid>
the developer is super friendly and approachable, they have implemented a system to recognize people's efforts (100+ commits = being added to the README and getting a Discord rank, or something) and provide incentives
<AlwaysLivid>
like, he's super super friendly
<AlwaysLivid>
he directly encourages people to help him out
<AlwaysLivid>
I think that Serenity now has more contributors than Haiku has ever had, if I'm correct?
<Animortis>
Wow
<AlwaysLivid>
the vast majority of the contributors made small changes, but isn't that first step still something?
<Animortis>
Well, that shows the interest is there
<AlwaysLivid>
they have certainly found a way to deal with the intimidating aspect of the whole topic
<Animortis>
I always considered Haiku's big advantage was it wasn't another Unix
<Animortis>
But that also may be intimidating
<AlwaysLivid>
and i'm definitely sure that part of it is thanks to the right utilization of social media and the fact that developers directly interact with the community
<Animortis>
Yeah understood
<AlwaysLivid>
in linux, a big problem is that first-time contributors are always going under fire because some people like to act in a contrarian manner. steps have been made, but this has put me off personally from interacting with linux at the moment
<AlwaysLivid>
"interact with the community" =/= discussing in discussion rooms such as their discord channels *only*, but it's, like, people spontaneously join calls and someone codes live on there while everyone else's chilling
<bitigchi>
Andreas gets it :)
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<AlwaysLivid>
yup!
<AlwaysLivid>
they're *clearly* doing something right that we are not
<AlwaysLivid>
and i've pushed commits and interacted with the community before
<Animortis>
Well, from a promotions standpoint, we can investigate all of this stuff.
<Animortis>
That's a lot to process. I know what my beach reading will be this weekend lol
<AlwaysLivid>
we probably won't be able to achieve good results if we all refuse or don't try to cooperate with each other
<bitigchi>
Also Haiku was away from the public eye for a long time
<Animortis>
Right now I think awareness is our main focus. Need to get our audiences to turn their eyes here.
<Animortis>
Need to run an errand. Taking notes though.
<AlwaysLivid>
as a first step, highlighting how awesome haiku is as a system should be a first priority to be honest
<Animortis>
So I'm going to ask then, who do you think would be most interested in hearing that message?
<AlwaysLivid>
the good thing about that idea is that it doesn't necessarily have to target people, other than in the sense of 'we're not advertising this to office workers'
<Animortis>
(Errand can wait, this is valuable)
<Animortis>
Well, what I mean is, do you think promoting Haiku as being awesome should be tailored for like devs looking for a neat new system to tinker with? Or to another group of people?
<AlwaysLivid>
I ported SuperTuxKart the other day. The game can also run on a Nintendo Switch. How cool would it be to show, for example, that you can play a game on Haiku alongside with your friend using a Nintendo Switch?
<AlwaysLivid>
That'd be attractive to developers too.
<AlwaysLivid>
Or, how about...
<AlwaysLivid>
Did you know we had a VVVVVV port?
<AlwaysLivid>
That you can emulate NES games on Haiku?
<bitigchi>
Andreas is the founder, so it's natural that he gets the attention, if we speak about Serenity
<AlwaysLivid>
that you can use the entire KDE suite?
<bitigchi>
For Haiku there is no equivalent
<AlwaysLivid>
bitigchi, we don't have a founder but we have equivalents that serve as 'the front face' of haiku
<AlwaysLivid>
we do have a founder, actually, but you get the point
<AlwaysLivid>
as in like, there's not a single leader and the leader says that 'this operating system is mine, but you're free to experiment and help me out!'
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<bitigchi>
Well, I don't see any face that wants to be on the spotlight
<bitigchi>
Andreas is happy to be on the spotlight
<AlwaysLivid>
we have social media channels
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<AlwaysLivid>
I regularly tweet cool stuff about Haiku but I'm on private.
<AlwaysLivid>
I don't know.
<bitigchi>
I've been advocating for more active Twitter use since I've been involved with the community
<bitigchi>
But people are hesitant and I've been told it's not the way it works for Haiku
<bitigchi>
So I've stopped
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<AlwaysLivid>
the system basically works like 'if you do something and you do it well enough, you gain reputation and eventually access to more things'
<Animortis>
OK I do need to run but I'm saving this one
<AlwaysLivid>
but this is literally impossible to achieve with, say, social media channels, unless if you use your personal accounts, but i'm not even sure if that counts even
<AlwaysLivid>
but you're responsible for the promotion now, right? bitigchi
<bitigchi>
No, I'm not. There was a time period that I had the time and the motivation but not anymore
<bitigchi>
I run the Turkish Twitter account now, as unofficial
<Animortis>
That's jt15s
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<Animortis>
He's our promo lead right now
<AlwaysLivid>
got it
<bitigchi>
Trying to tweet out stuff
<Animortis>
Maybe just a damn community organizer
<Animortis>
Is what we need
<AlwaysLivid>
community organizer as in?
<Animortis>
OK NOW I run. Leaving this open to save...
<AlwaysLivid>
we have public logs btw
<Animortis>
SOmeone who runs stuff like those Discord leadership things
<Animortis>
and Tweets and stuff
<Animortis>
Being overly simple but that's the gist
<Animortis>
Anyway, cheers.
<AlwaysLivid>
o/
* AlwaysLivid
waves but in text
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<zdykstra>
\o
<zdykstra>
you weren't waving to me, but as a midwesterner I'm contractually obligated to wave back
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<rnelson>
haha
<rnelson>
As someone from SD living in NE, o/
<truck>
as someone from WA living in FI, \o/
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<Skipp_OSX>
South Dakota, New England. Washington, Florida?
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