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<nephele[m]>
rjzak: just boot the older revisioln directly, no need to reinstall it
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Okay, the Matrix bridge seems to be working normally again.
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<ConditionBoy>
the more i look through the haiku source, the more i see duplicated work
<ConditionBoy>
as with all things, it's much messier on the inside than one would expect
<ConditionBoy>
augiedoggie: thanks for linking me to beezer for the icon menu
<ConditionBoy>
i believe i have improved on your implementation, and would like to share them back to you
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<ConditionBoy "as with all things, it's much me"> Yeah, you can even find code from more than 25 decades ago. I think it does its job, but it needs cleaning.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
We briefly spent some time cleaning up some source files around December 2020.
<ConditionBoy>
that being said, considering how many system apps roll their own implementation, it should really be part of the inerface kit at this point
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Have you published the change to Gerrit yet?
<nephele[x]>
alwayslivid: haiku has been cleaning up stuff a lot, and it's only 20 years old ;)
<nephele[x]>
also, matrix replies...
<ConditionBoy>
on the whole, i like what i'm seeing a lot haha
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I nearly replied to your message, thanks for stopping me.
<ConditionBoy>
i haven't done anything with gerrit yet
<nephele[x]>
ConditionBoy: some stuff should really be deduped indeed
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
There's just some open source code that was before that time. And it was before I was even born, so, technically, there's practically no tangible difference to me if it was published 25 years ago or before Jesus Christ.
<nephele[x]>
for instance the statusview seems to be reimplemented inside every app that needs it .-.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
We also have a problem with apps not using Layout Management.
<ConditionBoy>
i've touched on this question before, but when working in haiku, making changes and viewing those changes makes total sense
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
We largely fixed that with a lot of applications last year.
<ConditionBoy>
that's how i've been doing what i've been doing
<ConditionBoy>
but if i wanted to add something to interface kit, and then start changing apps to use that new class, how would that work?
<nephele[x]>
Well, i fixed (1) application(s) to use layouts this or last year!
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I think I fixed two.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Fortuna being one of them, the toughest of them.
<nephele[x]>
ConditionBoy: layout kit or interface kit? In either case you probably would first add your thing to libshared, which is our unstable stuff
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
You all pretty much demolished me with that one XD
<ConditionBoy>
nephele[x]: either or
<ConditionBoy>
considering menubar and menu and menuitem are all in interface kit, i think adding an iconmenuitem there would make most sense
<nephele[x]>
the only items that are declared as seperate items still are those that require mutability in their enabled/disabled rendering pretty much then
<ConditionBoy>
omg
<ConditionBoy>
this reminds me of android actionbar hell
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
does anyone have a linux gui-based IDE that can work with haiku development?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
qt creator hates the lack of cmake
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
hm, i guess i can make a project file and add it to 3rd party
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
nevermind it literally already exists
<Not-b5c9>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/Js7YO
<ConditionBoy>
on android, it's the top bar in an app
<ConditionBoy>
that governs app navigation and options
<ConditionBoy>
it became a design pattern in, like android 4
<ConditionBoy>
but people decided it was easier to just implement it themselves via straight-up `View`s
<ConditionBoy>
and all these years later, it is a hellscape of spaghetti
<ConditionBoy>
that's what this looks like to me
<ConditionBoy>
i was one of those people who implemented my own actionbar, too
<ConditionBoy>
now i have to work in this terrible world i helped create
<nephele[x]>
Not really sure how that relates to menus :)
<ConditionBoy>
what do you mean?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
i think it's karma?
<ConditionBoy>
it is literally the same thing
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
only that they are the one to clean the mess now
<nephele[x]>
I don't see how android views are related to haikus layout kit
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
.-.
<ConditionBoy>
how do you not see the connection?
<ConditionBoy>
granted, you're apparently not familiar with the android sdk
<ConditionBoy>
but surely you can see the parallel, at least in concept
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
i'm not either, i'm just familiar with horrible android apps
<ConditionBoy>
AlwaysLivid[m]: yeah, well, that's what you get with that kind of programming culture
<nephele[x]>
Maybe i'm cynical but i think horrible apps just come with popularity ;)
<ConditionBoy>
then let's not be the brave pioneers who make horrible apps for an unpopular os
<ConditionBoy>
terrible apps happen for a variety of reasons
<ConditionBoy>
and to be fair, "terrible" could mean lots of different things in the context of applications
<nephele[x]>
I gotta say, so far i am much happier with the XMPP bridge than the Matrix one
<nephele[x]>
even if i have to lay hands on the client a bit, but no nick substituion or anythingm no replies to avoid, just a calm chat client to use
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I'll just try to keep working on Matrix support being good enough for now and then experimenting with XMPP.
<ConditionBoy>
what does "add to libshared" mean?
<ConditionBoy>
in the context of me wanting to add a class to interfacekit
<ConditionBoy>
and use those changes within haiku
<nephele[x]>
libshared is our library for unstable stuff, it gets linked statically mostly afaik
<nephele[x]>
Alwayslivid: Matrix is well, matrix... good luck, you will need it...
<ConditionBoy>
where does that reside on the system?
<ConditionBoy>
like, assume i want to develop an app, and be able to `#include <NewClass.h>` from anywhere as opposed to copying that class into every project and using `#include "NewClass.h"
<nephele[x]>
src/kits/shared
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Hm, just tried compiling Haiku for RISC-V with @nightly-raw but got no image even if the compilation process succeeded.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Is this normal?
<nephele[x]>
alwayslivid: not sure what you expected? the port isn't close to finished upstream
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I just didn't get an error or anything.
<nephele[x]>
X512 hasen't put up patches on gerrit yet
<ConditionBoy>
and how does utilising that directory accomplish what i want to accomplish?
<nephele[x]>
Pretty sure i told you above...?
<ConditionBoy>
do i need to build a new haiku with my class in that folder?
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<Begasus>
g'morning peeps
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
morning!
<Begasus>
morning AlwaysLivid[m]
<nephele[x]>
I think you need to add your implementation to a new file there, with BPrivate and add a header to headers/private/shared
<nephele[x]>
and then be able to include it via that in your project
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<nephele[x]>
Hello Begasus
<Begasus>
moin nephele[x]
<ConditionBoy>
and what is the benefit of doing that versus putting it in the interface kit directory?
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<nephele[x]>
libshared is for new apis, only stable stuff should get in the kits
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<nephele[x]>
afaik anyhow
<ConditionBoy>
okay, but for my purposes, there is no functional difference?
<nephele[x]>
There will probably be differences in the review if you wish to upstream it? :)
<nephele[x]>
Anyhow, as far as i know new stuff goes into libshared, there is also e.g IconButton.cpp there now, which functionally would belong in the interface kit for example
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<ConditionBoy>
i was using IconButton as a template to add and change my files
<ConditionBoy>
changed the include in one of my previously edited apps
<ConditionBoy>
i guess the import works fine, or else i get no complaints
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<ConditionBoy>
but then it says my class was not declared in this scope
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<AlwaysLivid>
where is the include-3rdparty flag defined in the source code? trying to come up with a 'server mode' here
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<AlwaysLivid>
reminder: the only thing server mode would be useful for would be placing the en-US locale settings and immediately booting
<AlwaysLivid>
....... Not sure if I should adjust it and allow any locale to be used, and just make a locale variable instead? the BuildSetup will get a bit long though
<AlwaysLivid>
i just have no idea how the configure script interacts with that file
<humdinger>
oi AlwaysLivid!
<AlwaysLivid>
with the poodles already!
<humdinger>
I'm not capable of fixing the Vision MOTD issue..
<AlwaysLivid>
Should I try definining the topic one more time?
<humdinger>
the poodles had a look too. nothing...
<AlwaysLivid>
Maybe that could do something while you're connected?
<julicenri>
Well does it display the different colours in my CANDY COLOURS message earlier?
<nephele[x]>
check the screenshot, i don't think it does
<nephele[x]>
But i have no idea if that is because of a bridge or anything, or because renga just doesn't do that atm :)
<nephele[x]>
Just trying atm to make the colors better, now i have basically all readable with my color scheme, before it was mostly unreadable in a dark theme
<ConditionBoy>
i'm learning a lot about haiku
<ConditionBoy>
i like you folks
<Begasus>
checking out latest checkout for scummvm
<PulkoMandy>
the bridge is forwarding the colors, I see them in Gajim
<nephele[x]>
then it's probably that Renga now only does the text color for the full label
<PulkoMandy>
yes, there's no code yet to get the colors added
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<ConditionBoy>
i'm confused again
<ConditionBoy>
i moved my iconmenu class to the appropriate shared folders
<ConditionBoy>
changed the code in one app
<ConditionBoy>
jam
<ConditionBoy>
works as expected
<ConditionBoy>
in another app i had also changed before moving my class to shared, i make the same changes, and i get an undefined reference error
<AlwaysLivid>
Hi, I messaged many of you who registered over the past 3 days and had some personal information with your account manually. If you only accept PMs from friends and belong in this category, please message me back.
<ConditionBoy>
i go back to the previous scenario, with my class's files in the app's source folder and an edited jamfile
<ConditionBoy>
works fine again
<ConditionBoy>
go back to the same changes as made in the previous, working app (include <> not "", no local files, references removed in jamfile)
<ConditionBoy>
undefined reference error
<ConditionBoy>
go into an app i have never touched before
<ConditionBoy>
add my code to include my class from shared
<ConditionBoy>
works as expected
<ConditionBoy>
i'
<ConditionBoy>
i'm confused
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<PulkoMandy>
are you linking libshared in the jamfile of all apps?
<ConditionBoy>
yes
<ConditionBoy>
assuming by that you mean `UsePrivateHeaders shared ;`
<PulkoMandy>
there is unfortunately not that much documentation for all of our custom rules (such as "Preferences" and "Application") which are used in Haiku buildsystem
<ConditionBoy>
thanks
<ConditionBoy>
oh, that's too bad
<ConditionBoy>
for you guys, i mean
<ConditionBoy>
you have to suffer through more questions from me
<bone-baboon>
PulkoMandy: Thanks
<AlwaysLivid>
no problem, with any luck you'll also be among the people giving the answers someday :P
<Begasus>
In time it's your chance to hand over the information ConditionBoy :)
<AlwaysLivid>
yup, same words
<ConditionBoy>
with better luck, i'll contribute to the documentation
<ConditionBoy>
actually, how does that work?
<PulkoMandy>
they are not super hard to understand once you know they are all defined in build/jam/* in the source tree and some even have comments there
<ConditionBoy>
through all my reading and researching in the past few days, i've noticed a lot of things in doumentation from the general website to the haiku book, ranging from typos and grammatical errors to small inaccuracies
<ConditionBoy>
how do i go about submitting changes to things like that?
<nephele[x]>
ConditionBoy: haha, when i got here i was also hogging questions, and with time i answer more than i ask, but the asking never goes away ;)
<PulkoMandy>
the haiku book is in docs/user/ in the sourcetree and can be modified like the sourcecode (with git change requests)
<PulkoMandy>
there is a readme in that directory explaining it
<PulkoMandy>
the website is at github.com/haiku/website
<ConditionBoy>
lol rtfm got it
<ConditionBoy>
my b
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<bone-baboon>
I prefer to use window managers instead of desktops and all the demonstrations of Haiku that I have seen appear to be using the same graphical desktop environment. Can Haiku be used with something like a Xorg/Wayland window manager?
<PulkoMandy>
no
<nephele[x]>
bone-baboon: haiku has no seperate concept of a window manager
<bone-baboon>
PulkoMandy: nephele[x]: Thanks
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<AlwaysLivid>
wb, B2IA!
<B2IA>
Just rebooting.
<bone-baboon>
<https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html> says "Haiku includes some software that you're not allowed to modify. It also includes nonfree firmware blobs." What parts of Haiku can not be modified? Is it correct that Haiku includes nonfree frimware blobs?
<PulkoMandy>
firmwares for wifi cards
<PulkoMandy>
that's it
<AlwaysLivid>
bone-baboon, the software is a reference to WonderBrush, which has been properly licensed
<PulkoMandy>
and our package manager does include some non-free software
<AlwaysLivid>
so that part is outdated
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, the horror!
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, there are a few other things, for example liblayout which is used by some legacy apps
<PulkoMandy>
(and was replaced by the new layout system directly built into interface kit)
<AlwaysLivid>
VVVVVV, for example, is available on Haiku for free under a special license, the source code is open but not free.
<PulkoMandy>
and in general we have no policy that would prevent non-free software to be packaged there
<PulkoMandy>
haiku itself is under a mix of opensource licenses however
<AlwaysLivid>
It's just that we normally need the source code of something to publish it in our own repositories.
<AlwaysLivid>
Not sure if there's any exception, but yeah.
<nephele[x]>
debian and fedora both get stamped as non-free by the gnu guidelines, and they are both agressively FOSS, so i wouldn't put too much faith in their recomendations IMO
<AlwaysLivid>
The overwhelming majority of software should be what one would label as "libre".
<AlwaysLivid>
Proprietary drivers are as much of a pain to us as they are to some people that tend to not prefer them for ethical consumption reasons. But it's not like your machine necessarily runs that code if you have chosen not to do this, or that the microcode in your CPU suddenly stops being software because its only intended purpose is to operate with the hardware. But that's just my opinion.
<AlwaysLivid>
I would also rather have proprietary Wi-Fi drivers be eradicated from existence, I think that they are also very hard to work with and hinder adoption of open-source systems. But that's just my philosophy and is sort of irrelevant.
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<bone-baboon>
PulkoMandy: Would I be able to remove the packages with nonfree WiFi firmware if I am using a USB WiFi adapter that can work with free software (AR9271)?
<PulkoMandy>
we don't have drivers for any USB Wifi adapters, but yes, you can uninstall the firmware package if you don't need it
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, note that Haiku provides a stable ABI between the OS and the drivers, which would make it much easier for people to provide closed source drivers if they wanted to
<PulkoMandy>
(as in, they would not end up rewriting half the kernel in the process, as it happens when people try to do this for Linux)
<nephele[x]>
linux now also has a stable in-kernel KPI for drivers aswell
<PulkoMandy>
it was about time they stole our ideas on this :D
<Begasus>
bbl
<nephele[x]>
PulkoMandy: well, it was mostly google who wanted this for android
<AlwaysLivid>
Consumer freedoms are freedoms too and people will keep taking advantage of them if they have no other choice. Developing free and libre software that are appealing to the average person and can compete with closed-source solutions is the way.
<AlwaysLivid>
So, that's very good, in my opinion.
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<milek7>
huh, linux has stable kernel api? i don't think so
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, personally I write free software when I can, but I use things that allow me to get the job done
<AlwaysLivid>
That's exactly what I mean.
<PulkoMandy>
that happens to be a lot of free software only because it's rare to see anything else running on Haiku
<nephele[x]>
they certainly have for some drivers, all the android board specific crapware pretty much, so android can be updated more effectively for those targets without having to spend engineering time on the kernel again
<milek7>
whatever android is doing is not mainline linux
<bone-baboon>
PulkoMandy: AlwaysLivid: Thanks
<nephele[x]>
android is much closer to mainline now than it was 8 years ago :)
<AlwaysLivid>
bone-baboon, apart from the drivers, Haiku is libre as far as I'm concerned
<PulkoMandy>
nephele[x], the way it seems to work is rather that the manufacturer of any given phone hacks their things into one specific version of the kernel and then never do any update later on
<nephele[x]>
yes, before android 10 this was the rule pretty much
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<bone-baboon>
I am guessing that Emacs works on Haiku. Has anyone been able to use Emacs as a window manager in Haiku by making it full screen and using EXWM (Emacs X Window Manager)?
<nephele[x]>
bone-baboon: that question makes little sense to the haiku way of doing things, we don't have X11, we don't really have any X11 clients running either, all applications use the application kit which in turn talks to the application server to facilitate drawing of applications, fonts etc.
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<nephele[x]>
the application server also does the window decorations and such, through something called a decorator, if you wish to change how window borders look you can change the decorator, but you can't really replace the application server
<nephele[x]>
If you just want to get rid of the menu on the right side you can just disable it, but you would need a different way to launch apps then ;)
<bone-baboon>
nephele[x]: Thanks
<julicenri>
Key thing to remember about Haiku is that it is developed as a single, cohesive system from kernel to user interface.
<julicenri>
This is in stark contrast to that of most Unices and Unix-likes, such as Linux, the BSDs, and even Solaris/illumos.
<julicenri>
Some of the other Unix-likes that have similar development philosophies are SerenityOS and toaruOS.
<julicenri>
Plan 9 might count too, but that's more post-Unix really.
<nephele[x]>
ToAru OS is still such a great name
<julicenri>
Why?
<nephele[x]>
toaru is an anime/manga/light novel series, "A certain scientific railgun" "A certain magical index"
<julicenri>
Oh yeah, it very much seems quite weeby.
<julicenri>
Huh, it's still active.
<nephele[x]>
somehow wikipedia is not aware of that extremely clear reference, lol
<julicenri>
That's great.
<nephele[x]>
julicenri, as are we!
<julicenri>
ayy
<julicenri>
Well, at least it seems that we're out of the drought period for niche Unix-likes.
<julicenri>
IIRC Haiku only supports the older bwi driver.
<deavmi>
hey nephele[m]
<deavmi>
sorry only replied now
<deavmi>
:)
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: >:(
<AlwaysLivid>
:D
<nephele[m]>
somehow i cant login with renga anymore
<Plazma>
i'm behind the times, is haiku multiuser?
<Plazma>
or still single user
<AlwaysLivid>
Single-user, there's some code for multi-user, but that's not ready yet.
<Plazma>
fair enough
<nephele[m]>
in the posix sense its multi, in the UI sense definetely single user
<Plazma>
i wasn't sure if that was ever going to be a thing, since beosr5 was always single user
<PulkoMandy>
we don't plan to stop where beos was
<AlwaysLivid>
It's something we want to work on, alongside with the countless of other things we have planned.
<PulkoMandy>
in fact we are waay past BeOS on many things already
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, pushed a new revision to the website btw as an fyi
<AlwaysLivid>
should be good to go if everything's correct
<PulkoMandy>
looks fine, yes
<PulkoMandy>
(also, don't worry, I get email notification about these things)
<AlwaysLivid>
sorry for your inbox!
<AlwaysLivid>
also yay, first small step, done
<nephele[m]>
bah, i keep getting gloox connection errors immidiently now
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<nephele[m]>
enough programming for now i guess :)
<julicenri>
Is exposing multi-user in the GUI part of R1 or is it still planned for post-R1/R2 like as before?
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<nephele[m]>
no concrete plans afaik, but there are severall post R1 priority things done already, depends on if someone wants to do it
<julicenri>
True, a lot of things that were originally part of Project Looking Glass (R2) got pushed forward to the R1 betas.
<julicenri>
64-bit support and package management were the largest of those, correct?
<Plazma>
PulkoMandy: yea of course makes sense, but , there is that arguement of purist vs non purist
<Plazma>
some really adhere to certain things like a dogma
<PulkoMandy>
julicenri, there is no plan to work on multiuser currently (we have other things to do)
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<PulkoMandy>
but there is no central brain controlling everyone, so if someone starts working on it and gets it ready, we'll merge it
<PulkoMandy>
(no reason to hide features and not put it in our releases)
<Plazma>
yea for sure
<julicenri>
Understandable, as there are indeed more pressing matters.
<Plazma>
so i remember there was a good book on haiku for devloping for it by DarkWyrm and it's dated but useful, has there been anything similar written recently ?
<Plazma>
of similar nature, etc
<julicenri>
Has someone here heard about any updates regarding that OpenBSD DRM port that was mentioned during FOSDEM in the Haiku stand room?
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<nephele>
There has been on anf off talk about dri/drm ports of various os by various people, not much progress in any case i think
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<ConditionBoy>
omg
<ConditionBoy>
where the heck does bmenu define DrawItems(BRect)?
<ConditionBoy>
or rather, why isn't it in the haiku api doc?
<ConditionBoy>
or rather, if it is, why can i not find it with a page search?
<ConditionBoy>
i'm looking right at the dang method in the source code
<PulkoMandy>
Plazma, that book is still pretty much valid, why would we write another one?
<PulkoMandy>
also it has been put under a creative commons license so we can update it if needed
<PulkoMandy>
ConditionBoy, the haiku book is incomplete and not everything is documented
<Plazma>
PulkoMandy: i guess i meant is there additional material to it? like more detailed books like it, other topics, etc
<Plazma>
PulkoMandy: it is a fantastic book, i talked to darkwyrm a few years back over email about it, sadly he's moved on with that "life" thing :D
<PulkoMandy>
I don't think we have more like it, no
<PulkoMandy>
would be nice, but someone has to write it :)
<Plazma>
of course :D
<bone-baboon>
I am looking for alternatives to the Linux-libre kernel for two reasons.
<bone-baboon>
2) The thought exercise that the Linux kernel may not be viable in the future <https://odysee.com/@Lunduke:e/LinuxSucks2021:1>. I do not agree with all of the point they make in that video but the one on rapidly increasing complexity seems most compelling to me.
<bone-baboon>
"<julicenri> Key thing to remember about Haiku is that it is developed as a single, cohesive system from kernel to user interface." Could the Haiku kernel be used independently of the rest of Haiku? For example the Guix operating system using the Haiku kernel instead of Linux-libre. Guix has already had some work done on getting Guix to run on the Gnu Hurd microkernel.
<AlwaysLivid>
It may not be a good idea to solely depend on the opinion of one content creator as an authority, by the way.
<AlwaysLivid>
Reproducible... that's a good question.
<AlwaysLivid>
I've asked this before myself, the thing is that some packages that get included in the Haiku builds are fetched remotely and then put inside of the .iso image. bone-baboon
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<AlwaysLivid>
It's theoretically possible the way things are right now, because that set of software (haikuports.cross) is also accessible and can be utilized, but we don't list the sha256sums ourselves and it would be objectively hard to verify.
<AlwaysLivid>
Honestly, however, Haiku doesn't even have a multi-user UI and it runs most software with root privileges by default. If you're a political dissident or are worried about being subjected to monitoring, security through obscurity may not be necessarily the best idea.
<AlwaysLivid>
That's all things we want to progressively work on.
<AlwaysLivid>
It's on my TO-DO list, personally. There's a person currently affiliated with some efforts to refine the way images are built and published, but I'd have to reach out to them and ask about all of this.
<bone-baboon>
AlwaysLivid: Thanks
<AlwaysLivid>
bone-baboon, you could use Gentoo, or even Haiku the Gentoo way.
<AlwaysLivid>
https://github.com/haikuports/haikuports is public and you can easily compile basically any program on there with haikuporter and install it to your system
<AlwaysLivid>
and it's not very complicated in my opinion, if you're willing to get your hands a bit dirtier than the average Haiku user.
<PulkoMandy>
no, it's not reproducible
<PulkoMandy>
maybe someday
<AlwaysLivid>
but compiling from source is not as hard as on linux IMHO
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<bone-baboon>
AlwaysLivid: Thanks
<bone-baboon>
PulkoMandy: Thanks
<ConditionBoy>
how come a subclass of BMenu always draws a text label in a BMenuBar, even if i override its draw method and leave the def blank?
<ConditionBoy>
i'm looking at the source code for menubar, and its draw method is pretty minimal
<ConditionBoy>
just goes through its items and calles draw on each of them in turn
<ConditionBoy>
the draw method for menu is also really minimal
<ConditionBoy>
basically the same as menubar
<Not-b5c9>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-1/±0] https://git.io/JsdB3
<ConditionBoy>
like, what's happening that anything is being drawn if i have literally blank draw methods?
<ConditionBoy>
i can see why others based their iconmenu implementations on menuitem, because this makes no sense
<ConditionBoy>
i don't see what's making the difference for how menuitems get drawn "in-place", whereas menus seem to be drawn "from place"
<ConditionBoy>
don't know if that made any sense
<bone-baboon>
I asked on #gnu@Freenode about having the information about Haiku updated on <https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html> and was told "<bandali> hi, please write to licensing@fsf.org with details about any changes/updates, as they are the primary maintainers of that page". If someone who knows Haiku well were to write to them and they updated the information on Haiku on that page it would be helpful for people looking at that
<bone-baboon>
information. It would give them a more accurate idea of where Haiku is on the freedom front.
<AlwaysLivid>
Well, we are who we are.
<AlwaysLivid>
(Including 'very busy', feel free to use any of the things I brought up earlier or link to the IRC logs, should you decide to contact them.)
<ConditionBoy>
where are the headers stored for source files in src/kits/interface?
<ConditionBoy>
never mind
<ConditionBoy>
looks like they're in headers/os/
<ConditionBoy>
alright
<PulkoMandy>
bone-baboon, their information is accurate, there is nothing to update
<PulkoMandy>
also I think we don't want to be endorsed by GNU or the FSF anyway
<AlwaysLivid>
It's just the WonderBrush update. I'm also not very fond of their *very recent* decisions either, as far as I, on a personal capacity, am concerned.
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, I mentioned that we ship other closed source things (liblayout)
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: hm
<PulkoMandy>
so even if wonderbrush in particular is removed, this is still mostly correct
<PulkoMandy>
and also you mentionned things like VVVVVV
<PulkoMandy>
so, they will always find something to complain
<AlwaysLivid>
It's open-source and made available to us under a license.
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, it's not open source by the FSF definition
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: I must say, I do intent to submit my open-source projects to the FSF
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: if they're in the mood for endorsing projects
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: I will proudly annouce that my projects are thoroughly repudiated by the FSF
<AlwaysLivid>
what's liblayout's status on copyright?
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, also, look at what they say about ReactOS. It's 100% free and opensource, yet they are not happy about it because it allows running Windows apps
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: I have met rms, and frankly he is one of a very small and distinguished group of people whose faces I could never get tired of punching
<PulkoMandy>
surely the same argument would apply to Haiku with BeOS apps
<AlwaysLivid>
..... Jesus, this took a turn.
<PulkoMandy>
well, why did someone bring up GNU and the FSF here :D
<PulkoMandy>
as for liblayout, it is a closed source library and the author does not want to publish it
<PulkoMandy>
several haikuports maintainers have copies of the source and can rebuild the package when needed
<gordonjcp>
so it's open source -ish
<gordonjcp>
?
<PulkoMandy>
(to avoid any confusion: this is not the layout kit shipped with haiku, but an older separate one used by some old apps)
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, do we include that by default?
<gordonjcp>
ie. we have sufficient access to maintain a compatible liblayout for old apps, on new Haiku?
<gordonjcp>
#
<PulkoMandy>
well, if for you open source means "3 people in the world have a copy and are not allowed to redistribute it" ?
<ConditionBoy>
so internally, it looks like `BMenu::AddItem(Bmenu*)` always creates a `BMenuItem` so shelve things under
<ConditionBoy>
interesting
<ConditionBoy>
now it all makes sense
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: "known source" then :-)
<ConditionBoy>
sorry, y'all my duckies
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, yes, we ship this in release images I think
<PulkoMandy>
I think Wonderbrush still uses it?
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: on a practical note, that means that one of the holders of the source can write a clear description of the functions, sufficient to make a cleanroom implementation I guess?
<PulkoMandy>
it was also for BePDF but that has been migrated
<bone-baboon>
PulkoMandy: AlwaysLivid: Thank you for clarifying that.
<julicenri>
bone-baboon: With regards to the Haiku kernel, I think it's tied very closely to the rest of the system.
<AlwaysLivid>
so only wonderbrush is left before the image itself can be labelled as open source?
<AlwaysLivid>
i just started making a to-do list and it just keeps getting larger
<PulkoMandy>
gordonjcp, yes, but at this point let's just use the new layout system that's in Haiku (it's better) and adjust the 2 or 3 apps that use it
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, wifi firmwares
<PulkoMandy>
and we don't plan to remove these
<gordonjcp>
PulkoMandy: right
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, I might as well just work on a target for the people that are particularly touchy about this, but not on a high priority.
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, private TODO lists are a bad idea :) put things in public bugtrackers and hope someone else fixes it :p
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, let them do it if they want
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, that's why I recommended the pad :D
<PulkoMandy>
we don't need to cater to the need of everyone
<AlwaysLivid>
well, I might as well do it for the sake of learning how to deal with this build system
<PulkoMandy>
if you care yourself, do it. Otherwise, prioritize your own problems first :)
<julicenri>
Just to be clear though, is the Haiku kernel actually tightly integrated with the rest of the OS?
<AlwaysLivid>
julicenri, depends. Probably not on a degree to the point where you can't tear it apart and do whatever the hell you want with it.
<Begasus>
AlwaysLivid, focus (not on zilion of things) :)
<AlwaysLivid>
but yeah, it'd be hard to just come up with your own window system
<PulkoMandy>
the kernel is a pretty normal kernel, it has an interface in the form of system calls that userland can call
<PulkoMandy>
you could use it in a different OS probably, it's more of a "what's the point of doing it?" problem
<AlwaysLivid>
i should stop saying "the hell" because it's technically inappropriate
<julicenri>
Just say " the heck " instead. :P
<AlwaysLivid>
that was the plan
<AlwaysLivid>
I was just about to have my client replace hell with heck
<AlwaysLivid>
what the heck
<PulkoMandy>
I mean, either you have already researched things deeply and decided that our kernel is doing exactly something that you need and that part can't be extracted from it
<AlwaysLivid>
what the heck
<AlwaysLivid>
alright it works
<PulkoMandy>
or, it's likely that other kernels, designed to be used in many different situations, will work better for you
<julicenri>
True. There are plenty of other options for microkernels and hybrid kernels, some of which may be more appropriate for somebody's needs.
<julicenri>
Well, mostly microkernels.
<julicenri>
Hybrid kernels are seemingly rarer than microkernels or monolithic kernels.
<PulkoMandy>
apparently software designers like making extreme choices?
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<gordonjcp>
AlwaysLivid: fwiw I am in a tiny minority that is more offended by euphemistic swearing than swearing, but not enough to make a big deal of it
<julicenri>
Aside from NT (ReactOS included), XNU, and Haiku, there aren't many hybrid kernels in active development.
<AlwaysLivid>
it's good to set an example even if it means looking after the minor details ^-^
<julicenri>
DragonFly BSD and Plan 9 IIRC are the only other OSS hybrid kernels in active development.
<PulkoMandy>
wait doesn't Linux count?
<PulkoMandy>
they have kernel modules, they have partially userland drivers (at least in X.Org, but you could say about modern Mesa drivers too)
<julicenri>
Funny that you mention Linux, as Linus Torvalds himself has dismissed the term " hybrid kernel " as marketing gibberish here:
<PulkoMandy>
I agree with that (and I rarely agree with Linus)
<PulkoMandy>
if you want to describe it in a non-marketing way it's "we changed our mind mid-way and so our kernel is a big blob of code and when that became unmanageable we started moving the things we could out to userspace"
<bone-baboon>
Thank you I appreciate the help with my questions.
<julicenri>
PulkoMandy: Also to your question about kernel modules in Linux, that doesn't make it a hybrid kernel since it is at the binary (image) level and not architecturally.
<PulkoMandy>
it depends on your definition of "hybrid kernel"
<PulkoMandy>
mine is "it's not a microkernel and it's not really monolithic either"
<julicenri>
Given all this, what kind of kernel does Haiku have?
<PulkoMandy>
it's quite monolithic, except for a few things that are done in userspace
<PulkoMandy>
for example videocard drivers
<julicenri>
Hmm, that's certainkly one aspect that it shares with pre-4.0 NT and Windows 10 NT.
<nephele[m]>
If you just want a non-linux kernel for an OS you should probably just use minix3
<julicenri>
And make the successor to Linux with it. :P
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
If Linux is so good, why isn't there a Linux 2?
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: honestly i would care too much whether the fsf cares if haiku is foss or not, they explicit don't list openbsd who did waaaay more for open firmware and drivers that "free" linuxes ever did. and rhey also don't list debian or fedora who's only crime seems to be that they don't implement a way to make it impossible to run "non-free" software (in debians case its pretty much that debian /has/ repos for sw, but you apparently arent
<nephele[m]>
even allowed to tell your users that they have any choice in what sw to run)
<nephele[m]>
wouldn't*
<AlwaysLivid>
the last time we cared about it was when i looked at their page and was like 'huh why do they list as stuff being non-free' and nothing else really
<PulkoMandy>
the FSF policy for firmware (in the "respect your freedom" project) is that it's better if your firmware is deeply embedded in the system and not modifiable rather than loaded by software
<AlwaysLivid>
wish they actually had some sort of analysis other than "this system is bad, they do X and Y, it's very bad and we don't endorse it"
<PulkoMandy>
if you find a way to explain this...
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: nah, its much easier to just ideology dismiss everything that doesnt follow your biased worldview 100%
<nephele[m]>
even if for the fsfes ideology it would be much nicer if people "just" ran fedora which is a lot more competent that a lot of "truely free" linuxes, but again with the crime of having working drivers
<AlwaysLivid>
fair
<AlwaysLivid>
moving on, website, what should be worked on?
<AlwaysLivid>
pretty much done with moving some blog posts to the news section
<nephele[m]>
get me a gerrit login ;s
<AlwaysLivid>
like, not having to login with github and stuff?
<nephele[m]>
there are lots of sections you could work on if you want, cosmetic or organizational :)
<AlwaysLivid>
i know, right.
<nephele[m]>
like, haiku-os has a dark mode now i made, but apparently the nightlies download page doesnt use it
<nephele[m]>
(and our webkit now supports this too, so thid may become more obvious)
<AlwaysLivid>
yo this rocks
<nephele[m]>
also gerrit is completely broken in safari and webpositive...
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<nephele[m]>
(well not completely, in rare casis it manages to load stuff for me, but the site constantly freezes now, has wierd page reload/redirects etc... i dont want to by cynical but i suspect this jus wasent tested much with webkit)
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<ConditionBoy>
can someone explain to me why i get the error `B_TRANSLATion_CONTEXT was not declared in this scope` when i try to use `B_TRANSLATE`
<ConditionBoy>
i have included <Catalog.h> as per the docs
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<nephele[m]>
huh, no ticket, so guess ill make one
<nephele[m]>
ConditionBoy: you need to define a scope in which the translations are pretty much
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<ConditionBoy>
what does that mean?
<nephele[m]>
there is a seperate call or so for that, not sure what it looks like but you should be able to find it pretty quick in other translated apps
<AlwaysLivid>
'getting involved' is hidden, the getting involved page has entirely different and random content, there's a lot of subsections not even listed in the getting involved page
<AlwaysLivid>
verbs such as "documenting"
<AlwaysLivid>
and the initiatives program is a duplicate of what's brought up in the same community page
<AlwaysLivid>
and i have no idea where to even begin with this
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<bitigchi>
hi all
<AlwaysLivid>
hi bitigchi
<AlwaysLivid>
can you all promo folks help me clear up the website XD
<nephele[m]>
AlwaysLivid: yes, thats what is conplained about a lot, if you come up with a nice layout... :)
<nephele[m]>
I made a ticket for gerrit
<AlwaysLivid>
jesus christ and it's very hard for me to do this from pull request to pull request from commit to commit because it's like
<AlwaysLivid>
good lord i want to throw my laptop out of the windo
<AlwaysLivid>
w
<nephele[m]>
Get a desktop for haiku then :)
<AlwaysLivid>
alright, first things first, Get Involved! goes on the bar
<AlwaysLivid>
we are a non-profit effort with a manpower problem, shoving that up people's faces is the first and foremost thing we want to do, i don't care what the document even says anymore, i'll just drop the same panel in the community section for now
<AlwaysLivid>
it will look abysmal but it's much better than nothing and it can be fixed later
<nephele[m]>
can be fixed later?
<ConditionBoy>
things never get fixed later
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah, we'll just show people ALL of the things, even if they are a bit disorganized, and they'll be more likely to navigate
<AlwaysLivid>
as long as if it's one page
<AlwaysLivid>
it's going to look so crap to the point where yes, it will have to be fixed, but at least it won't have people get lost
<AlwaysLivid>
and traversing between different pages
<nephele[m]>
dunno about you but putting up a bug sign that sais "help! we are in over our heads!" wouldnt make me contribute
<bitigchi>
AlwaysLivid: I attempted trying to make get involved more friendly but eventually got lost in it
<bitigchi>
gave up then
<nephele[m]>
And honestly, i dont think this is an immidiete problem that reauires immidiet action to "fix" this, it's just the way haiku works now, and we need to be aware of it
<AlwaysLivid>
that's way better than having the goddang sign hidden deep somewhere
<AlwaysLivid>
and spending 10 minutes trying to find the sign that says 'help! we are in over our heads!'
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<bitigchi>
if i had time i'd start with a fresh layout i guess
<AlwaysLivid>
me too, but the top bar is a nice first step
<bitigchi>
with a big nice screenshot
<bitigchi>
something more clean
<AlwaysLivid>
bitigchi, should i make a kanban board
<bitigchi>
like trello?
<AlwaysLivid>
nephele[m], if a lot of people are complaining about a first impression, maybe the problem is more urgent than all of us would love to think :>
<AlwaysLivid>
sorry me trying to make sense of this layout is making me live up to my nickname
<nephele[m]>
i was talking about "we have a manpower problem"
<bitigchi>
AlwaysLivid: maybe we should look for suitable themes to start a redesign process?
<bitigchi>
then it might be easier to branch off
<AlwaysLivid>
that's not going to fix the content problem though
<bitigchi>
add stuff slowly
<nephele[m]>
maybe start by figuring out what the difference between documents and development is supposed to be
<AlwaysLivid>
problem's that there are way too many links that will be broken if we start completely from scratch
<AlwaysLivid>
very worried about this
<bitigchi>
not necessarily, we could leave the hierarchy as is
<bitigchi>
even if there are going to be broken links, a better organised web page would be more helpful
<AlwaysLivid>
i could fork the website, build directly on top of it and then merge all of the changes?
<AlwaysLivid>
this seems way better than my approach of building the train tracks and waiting for someone to approve a pull request as i go
<bitigchi>
yes
<bitigchi>
it's a continuous bikeshed
<bitigchi>
once a proper theme is determined it would be much easier
<AlwaysLivid>
what's wrong with the theme?
<bitigchi>
it looks dated to me (very valid argument)
<bitigchi>
and too crowded
<bitigchi>
it's not a theme problem per se
<AlwaysLivid>
can't we build on top of it?
<AlwaysLivid>
like, fix the website first, get the content straight, then work on the theme or make adjustments to the theme simultaneously
<AlwaysLivid>
jesus, the blog posts are over the news
<bitigchi>
getting the content straight is a very vague issue
<nephele[m]>
The organization is a bit messy, that seems way more pressing than any cosmetic changes imo
<bitigchi>
where? trac? new wiki? website
<AlwaysLivid>
website.
<AlwaysLivid>
just the website.
<AlwaysLivid>
there's tons of content on the website
<bitigchi>
wouldn't it be better to pull the development content to a wiki?
<bitigchi>
easier to edit and update
<bitigchi>
website should be clean i think
<AlwaysLivid>
i'd much rather use mediawiki to be honest but it's a maintenance burden according to what i've been told
<bitigchi>
just immediate marketing info
<bitigchi>
putting everything into the website is not the best approach i guess
<nephele[m]>
lots of dev info is in blogs, api stuff etc.
<nephele[m]>
its mostly not wikis
<AlwaysLivid>
we could also separate all of that in separate places
<AlwaysLivid>
after we figure out what the heck we have in front of us
<AlwaysLivid>
because right now we're dealing with a plate of spaghetti
<AlwaysLivid>
and there's macaroni in there that will kill you if you eat it
<bitigchi>
my thinking is: put a static marketing page and blog, pull all the rest of the content to a wiki
<AlwaysLivid>
mind elaborating on the wiki idea
<AlwaysLivid>
problem, we *need* to organize the content before we can put it in a wiki
<bitigchi>
correct
<bitigchi>
we should start from there first
<bitigchi>
and decide what to do with trac wiki
<bitigchi>
retire it?
<AlwaysLivid>
so we either do that progressively, or we do that by directly building on top of the website, making it readable, and then moving it off
<AlwaysLivid>
the trac wiki should be considered out of scope
<bitigchi>
any wiki ideas? anyone know a good free wiki to use?
<bitigchi>
or just use the standard one
<AlwaysLivid>
........ mediawiki, nobody hosts that stuff for free
<bitigchi>
like the arch
<AlwaysLivid>
or trac wiki
<AlwaysLivid>
there's implementations in other languages but most of them suck to be honest
<AlwaysLivid>
we don't have to deal with all of that right now
<bitigchi>
hmm i see
<AlwaysLivid>
and in my frank opinion, we either get a very strictly defined plan from start to finish or we do this gradually, there's a huge mess left to untangle
<AlwaysLivid>
i wish i could draw a flow chart right now
<bitigchi>
looking at the community page, most of that info also could be on a wiki
<AlwaysLivid>
yes, but that sort of info would look equally horrible on a wiki
<bitigchi>
i don't like the current trend of scrolling info type websites, but it would give a nice look about the project
<bitigchi>
and cram all the rest of the info to a wiki
<AlwaysLivid>
we can't do this if we don't clearly define the scrolling info you're talking about, and 'all the rest of the info'
<AlwaysLivid>
it's all very tangled together
<AlwaysLivid>
so we'd have to clearly define it, modify the content, and then separate it
<bitigchi>
those scrolling websites generally do not offer more than screenshots
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<bitigchi>
and marketing buzzwords
<bitigchi>
not suitable for more than that
<ConditionBoy>
what is add_state?
<bitigchi>
and we could put all the contribute button to the end of it
<bitigchi>
that's why i prefer starting from a clean state
<bitigchi>
eventually we could make the front page live, and start filling out the wiki at the same time
<bitigchi>
filling out the wiki wouldn't be hard i think, mostly copy-paste and gradual filtering
<bitigchi>
if the hosting thing wouldn't be a problem...
<bitigchi>
but i despise editing html pages as is right now
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, is there a chance of us ever getting a MediaWiki instance?
<AlwaysLivid>
or something, i don't know
<AlwaysLivid>
the old material could be moved and redirected to an old archive under a different subdomain, such as old.haiku-os.org
<AlwaysLivid>
and we'd reuse most of it, for the most part
<PulkoMandy>
MediaWiki is not appropriate for documentation
<PulkoMandy>
no hierarchy of pages
<PulkoMandy>
it will just be a flat mess of uncategorized pages
<AlwaysLivid>
we could get categories going
<bitigchi>
can't we just actually start using trac?
<PulkoMandy>
also we already have a wiki on Trac, what's wrong with it?
<nephele>
it joins when it sees a matrix room link in a channel it is a part of .-.
<nephele>
to make this a tad more annoying there are now severall bots that do that at once, with each of them assuming its fine to map rooms and only remove the room once you ban that specific instance
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<kallisti5>
easy cheezy
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<AlwaysLivid>
....... Who's Matrix Traveler?
<kallisti5>
It graphs rooms to find unlisted ones
<AlwaysLivid>
I have an idea, kallisti5
<AlwaysLivid>
there we go
<ScottPuopolo>
extrowerk: /ElectricDarkSouls looks to have different permissions (0755)
<extrowerk>
yep, but the question is how i tell to linux to not play wannabe mainframe here and just ignore acl-s on my own disk?
<ScottPuopolo>
extrowerk: can you try to change permissions on another folder to match and see if it is accessible?
<extrowerk>
BFS is read only in linux.
<nephele[m]>
no mountuser option?
<extrowerk>
nephele[m] what does that mean?
<ScottPuopolo>
maybe because BFS is presenting as root and that is throwing off linux to deny access
<nephele[m]>
extrowerk: nfs on linux has that, specify a uid/gud to present all files as
<ScottPuopolo>
I was thinking back in Haiku to set permissions to 755 or 777 on your audio files / folders and retest
<nephele[m]>
if your theory is correct just escalating to root on linux should be enough to read them
<ScottPuopolo>
nephele[m]: true, that would be a good test
<extrowerk>
nephele[m], sorry, but i won't run vlc and whoknowswhat as root.
<nephele>
extrowerk: obviously not, i was suggesting to escalate to root to check whether permissions are the actuall issue
<extrowerk>
but yeah, it works, obviously.
<nephele>
if you can't read it as root either it would be a different issue
<extrowerk>
i can read those folders as root
<ScottPuopolo>
extrowerk: I guess that with permission set to 640 and the uid / gid set to 0 / root, you would be not included in the access to the files within the linux example you posted
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<bitigchi>
finally uninstalled virtualbox and switched to qemu... it's much more pleasant
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<bitigchi>
much more snappy and responsive
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<extrowerk>
i mounted the fs with uid/gid, now i own everything! I mean i am truly the owner, but i am not realyl happy with the result: https://imgur.com/ZlBClcZ.png
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<tqh>
bitigchi, I recommend telling QEMU to use newer hw as well: -machine q35
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<tqh>
Especially if you use UEFI fws, as then it don't stall that long.
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<bitigchi>
tqh: did that, thanks!
<tqh>
and as personal thing, I found out qemu in debian is ancient. So switching to backports version.
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<Begasus>
heading down, g'night peeps
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<lelldorin>
ghostscript: any idea why this command does not run on Haiku? gs -sDEVICE=pdfwrite -sOutputFile="/boot/home/Desktop/wirR.pdf" -dNOPAUSE -dEPSCrop -c"<</Orientation 2>> setpagedevice" -dBATCH "/boot/home/Desktop/wir.ps"
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<AlwaysLivid>
hey, where can i find a list of all contributors with commit access?
<PulkoMandy>
I think this url changed with the gerrit update or something?
<kallisti5[m]>
PulkoMandy:
<kallisti5[m]>
* PulkoMandy:works here
<AlwaysLivid>
is there a login-free URL? i'm adding this to the Policies section and it may not be a good look
<AlwaysLivid>
(for reference, i'm adding hyperlinks, cleaning up the site and fixing the way the sites are formatted, nothing else apart from some additional/fixed text in getting involved)
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<Plazma>
fwiw on the irc page it says migrating from the freedom network to OFTC, not freenode
<iisi>
Migrating from the "revise our rules to allow at-will channel takeovers by staff" network? (^:
<AlwaysLivid>
Plazma, oops
<AlwaysLivid>
I've been making some horrendous typos lately, that's true.
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<AlwaysLivid>
Either way, I just pushed a pull request where I spent a lot of time organizing the website a bit better. It's not perfect, but I think it's better and that navigating it is actually possible now. https://github.com/haiku/website/pull/510
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<Not-b5c9>
[haikuports/haikuports] diversys pushed 1 commit to master [+2/-2/±0] https://git.io/JsF4i
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<Plazma>
so when doing haiku system level dev, or even the os dev, how do you go about testing changes? assuming some kernel things are modular enough to do it?