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<B2IA>
(AGMS) That makes me wonder if I should hook up SpamDBM (from the mail system) to the BeShare chat bridge. Easy enough to train it on good vs bad IRC messages.
<ConditionBoy>
iisi: perhaps you're right haha
<AlaskanEmily>
Can't you just require registration? Or is that already a requirement?
<iisi>
o7 Saluti
<iisi>
Problem is: people who who install Haiku must be able chat in #haiku without the barrier of registration.
<AlwaysLivid>
Good lord, what did I even wake up to?
<AlwaysLivid>
Problem is that these people are literally impersonating actual users, so I can't ban the (unauthenticated) users, and the IPs are VPN IPs.
<AlwaysLivid>
Oops...
<AlwaysLivid>
iisi, yeah, you're right, according to others though this was the end of it
<AlwaysLivid>
as in it's slowing down
<iisi>
I may have /ignored a bunch, which IRCCloud applier retroactively. Hopefully not many were set too broadly.
<AlwaysLivid>
My advice would be to unignore them, because they are actual users with an actual degree of reputation.
<AlwaysLivid>
Additionally, register your nicknames and /msg NickServ SET ENFORCE ON
<ConditionBoy>
do you fellas ever have conferences?
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<augiedoggie>
the HIG does specify where the settings menu goes
<augiedoggie>
ConditionBoy: in the "Common Menus..." section of the HIG is a section for the "Program" menu which contains About, Settings, and Quit
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<augiedoggie>
admittedly a lot of Haiku apps don't create a "Program" menu like they should
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<iisi>
I didn't recognise any of them.
<iisi>
Hmm, twn or three of the masks might be too vague.
<augiedoggie>
AlwaysLivid: this isn't just a ports issue, very few of the included Haiku apps use a proper menu structure in the app
<AlwaysLivid>
ohhhhhhhhh
<AlwaysLivid>
that doesn't sound like very tricky to fix
<augiedoggie>
yeah, easy stuff
<AlwaysLivid>
just takes a bit of time to think through and execute
<augiedoggie>
one or two of the apps already have a BitmapMenuItem class to do that stuff that can be reused
<augiedoggie>
probably take just a few minutes for each app
<AlwaysLivid>
we could definitely make use of more people that get annoyed enough at all of this to actually fix it, without too much e-mail, to be honest
<AlwaysLivid>
"too much e-mail" as in like, yeah, this is a problem
<AlwaysLivid>
the only thing that fluctuates is how big of a priority this is for contributors, which all work on different stuff
<nephele[m]>
Changine menus is a good oportunity to move menus to the layout kit :)
<AlwaysLivid>
yuppppppp
<AlwaysLivid>
as i've put it multiple times before, integrated haiku apps should be particularly exemplary, and we are more than glad to have more people that are willing to help us reach that standard
<ConditionBoy>
augiedoggie: i thought that would be what that meant, but it wasn't clear
<ConditionBoy>
i think that is a brilliant convention, and i was going to suggest that exact idea
<AlwaysLivid>
you're talking about a convention that has been agreed on and is documented, is that so?
<ConditionBoy>
yes
<ConditionBoy>
i am willing to begin working on cleaning up app menus to comply with the hig
<AlwaysLivid>
and nobody has contested it, right ConditionBoy?
<AlwaysLivid>
to the best of my knowledge nobody has
<ConditionBoy>
then should i get to work and ask questions later?
<ConditionBoy>
ask for forgiveness later*
<ConditionBoy>
lol
<ConditionBoy>
i do have one suggestion concerning the Program menu, though
<AlwaysLivid>
well, if we think that your work does not match the said guidelines or that it's counterintuitive for some reason, we can help, give direct feedback or even build on top of that
<AlwaysLivid>
that's all there is to it, i don't think anybody disagrees with you
<ConditionBoy>
since applications are called applications everywhere else in haiku, i woulkd propose that the Program menu should instead be "Application', 'App', or the app name itself
<AlwaysLivid>
one thing at a time
<AlwaysLivid>
i'll say that i personally feel like this would mess around with muscle memory and there's a lot of 3rd-party applications that also don't do that
<AlwaysLivid>
but i'm just leaving this out here not because i want to argue right now about it or whatever, but because i think that the input of one (1) additional person could be useful in this
<ConditionBoy>
i also think we should decide on 'settings' or 'preferences'
<AlwaysLivid>
one thing at a time.
<augiedoggie>
the program menu is typically the application icon, not a text label
<ConditionBoy>
even better
<ConditionBoy>
that's a great idea
<ConditionBoy>
that's what you were talking about before, right?
<augiedoggie>
yes
<ConditionBoy>
do the menus support images like that?
<augiedoggie>
i think the HIG mentions that somewhere else
<augiedoggie>
yes
<augiedoggie>
several apps already do it
<ConditionBoy>
oh yeah
<ConditionBoy>
like the proxy icon in tracker
<ConditionBoy>
nice
<ConditionBoy>
well then long live the program menu, i say
<ConditionBoy>
still think the 'Settings...' option should be 'Preferences' to keep it consistent
<AlwaysLivid>
i've changed things for consistency too, just change it is my advice
<ConditionBoy>
i'm into it
<augiedoggie>
i just overhauled Beezer, it was using settings, preferences, and options :P
<ConditionBoy>
*ConditionBoy has an aneurism
<ConditionBoy>
lol
<iisi>
augiedoggie: That sort of disjointednesr irks me.
* iisi
putr an 'r' back in the box for later
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<ConditionBoy>
is there a specific place apps are supposed to keep their icons?
<iisi>
"Let's think. I want to customise this setting in $msThing, so is it in Tools>Options, Tools>Customize, File>Settings, or some fourth, fifth, or sixth similarly named location?!"
<augiedoggie>
icons are usually embedded as resources in the app
<ConditionBoy>
i figured
<ConditionBoy>
but looking at the source tree right now, i don't see any app icons in their source folders
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<augiedoggie>
the rdef files contain the data which gets compiled to a rsrc file
<augiedoggie>
which then gets added to the executable
<AlwaysLivid>
^
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<ConditionBoy>
so when i'm looking at
<ConditionBoy>
ActivityMonitor.rdef, there is a def for `resource vector_icon`
<ConditionBoy>
which is then followed by a series of lines starting with `$` and a double-quoted series of numbers and letters
<ConditionBoy>
is that a vector literal or something?
<augiedoggie>
yes, it's hvif data, like a slimmed down svg
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<augiedoggie "yes, it's hvif data, like a slim"> Probably one of the most unique features of Haiku, rather than rendering icons in a dozen of different resolutions.
<extrowerk>
ConditionBoy: Vision's source is on HaikuArchives at Github.
<ConditionBoy>
ideally, there should be a class baked into the sdk, something along the lines of `ApplicationMenu` that every compil;ed app has automatically, with the `Quit` option defined by default
<extrowerk>
i see now you found the sources already.
<ConditionBoy>
which draws the app's defined vector_icon, presumably the same way Tracker does
<nephele[m]>
I personally don't like bitmap menus, it's too small a target to hit
<nephele[m]>
ConditionBoy: the source for tracker is in src/kits/tracker not in apps
<ConditionBoy>
then programmers can simply add this menu and add to it
<ConditionBoy>
easy peasy
<ConditionBoy>
nephele[m]: it's about the same size a target as a `File` menu
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
progress! extrowerk
<nephele[m]>
There are also apps like DocumentViewer that don't use any text labels, but that is incredibly confusing imo, no clue what all the icons mean :)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
true
<extrowerk>
AlwaysLivid[m] i just woke up...
<nephele[m]>
ConditionBoy: not really, it's about a 1/4th of it, i suppose that depends on set font size too
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
good morning then!
<ConditionBoy>
nephele[m]: i'm looking at it right now
<nephele[m]>
I actually didn't know or understand that the Icon in Vision was supposed to be a menu for quite some time :)
<ConditionBoy>
it's only slightly smaller
<nephele[m]>
Yes, and i'm tellinng you it's substantially smaller for me
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<ConditionBoy>
it's roughly 0.88888888 times the size
<ConditionBoy>
based on my rough pixel counting
<nephele[m]>
What is the point of debating this? You already claimed that it is a set bitmap icon, while fonts are of variable size, it will clearly be different
<Begasus>
k, someone trying to fix the Vision build? (I see it's broken on the buildbot)
<ConditionBoy>
we already discussed what the future of ui scaling would mean for haiku
<ConditionBoy>
and that it shouldn't have to do with fonts
<ConditionBoy>
i also proposed that the app's vector icon should be drawn
<ConditionBoy>
and would thus scale seemlessly with the rest of the ui
<ConditionBoy>
as it should
<ConditionBoy>
nephele[m]: thanks for pointing out where the tracker source is
<humdinger>
aren't we currently scale according to the curent font size?
<extrowerk>
nephele[m]: that icon in the menubar in Vision were introduced around the same time as Zeta started to use the app-icon similarily in the menu bar of their programs. I think it was in their HIG.
<humdinger>
isn't that how its supposed to be?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
yeah, but icons don't do that, I think?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
and that's what the discussion is about?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
if I'm following it correctly
<humdinger>
well, you create your BBitmap in a size matching the font size and load a vector icon in there
<humdinger>
I think...
<humdinger>
not sure how I feel about icons in the menu bar.
<ConditionBoy>
not icons
<ConditionBoy>
just the one
<nephele[m]>
ConditionBoy: i think font scaled UI is perfectly fine, and i haven't discussed that with anyone recently, but it really doesn't matter, a fixed icon is a fixed icon, fonts are always variable in size
<humdinger>
Text only looks more consistent and clean IMO
<ConditionBoy>
just for about, help, preferences, and quit
<ConditionBoy>
nephele[m]: fixed icons should not be fixed icons
<ConditionBoy>
that's the whole point of vector icons
<nephele[m]>
You can fix the icon for vision to scale nicer indeed, but it seems silly to have icons there because ZETA did so, we don't follow a lot what zeta did
<humdinger>
I may have been conditioned from my Windows using youth. There the icon in the menu bar only held general unuseful items...
<ConditionBoy>
windows would be the right place to look for what *not* to do to create an elegant ux
<humdinger>
so, another contra for the icon in menu bar :)
<ConditionBoy>
not necessarily, but at least for how it should act and what it should do
<nephele[m]>
I can't open the HIG i safari, it sais 'a problem repeatedly occured' hmm..
<humdinger>
Begasus: Vision build fixed
<Begasus>
nice humdinger , can you bump the recipe?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<humdinger "Begasus: Vision build fixed"> needs a new release then
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
wait sorry
<Begasus>
;)
<humdinger>
does a build fix warrent a minor version bump?
<humdinger>
or just point the recipe to the right commit hash?
<Begasus>
no other changes, so I guess a commit hash would be the way to go
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
yes unless if you redo most of the recipe's metadata
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
give me 5 minutes I'll explain
<humdinger>
bad luck tht Vision version has been bumped to 0.10.5 recently without that build fix.
<AlwaysLivid>
we bumped to 0.10.5 as part of the measures we took because of the oftc switch, and because the metadata in the recipe made use of the $portVersion variable, including in the URL
<AlwaysLivid>
a minor change such as 0.10.5.1 could probably work?
<humdinger>
4 verion digits though...
<humdinger>
*version
<AlwaysLivid>
well, we've already ran out of three version digits in the sense that we went with 0.10, so we could just go with 0.10.6 and carry on all the way up to 0.10.xx?
<AlwaysLivid>
google's foobar challenge had an amazing python challenge back in the day involving setuptools and this exact typicality, i think (and hope) it has been retired by now, it was wonderful
<humdinger>
let's go to .6 then.
<AlwaysLivid>
seems fine, i'll bump it up
<humdinger>
hold on
<AlwaysLivid>
it's alright, someone will have to approve my PR anyways
<jezek2>
yep I think in 0.x versions it's silly to introduce 4th number :)
<humdinger>
I had some crashes. give me some miutes to see if I find the bug first
<AlwaysLivid>
i'll just push the change and it'll point to 0.10.6 when it's ready, don't worry about it :D
<AlwaysLivid>
let's just not end up to 0.10.7 by then
<humdinger>
need to re-launch Vision a couple of times.
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<jezek2>
who cares, it's just a number, as long as it's not ending up with ridiculous *major* version numbers like in firefox/chrome it's fine
<AlwaysLivid>
I think I should bump the required version of Haiku to, at the very least, beta1 or something, since alpha4 hrev52220 seems way too old
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, I can't even push the new HP recipe because I literally forgot that checksums are a thing
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
i'll probably add the other architectures as untested
<AlwaysLivid>
it's really not dependency-heavy, so it's probably likely to work and we'd do this either way later down the line
<nephele[m]>
Not much sense to do this now, hp will have to be patched initially to treat riscv5 and such as untested if unspecified since the other way around would be a huge pita initially imo
<nephele[m]>
riscV board with passive cooling sounds cool though, tried to run my desktop on rpi3 eith freebsd once, but it sucked it was too slow :(
<nephele[m]>
zlib is a os dep afaik
<nephele[m]>
as soon as there is a port to other arches that are far enough to test third party apps such as vision it should probably be added then
<AlwaysLivid>
I think that we'll only have to patch HaikuPorter so that it builds everything regardless of whether they're defined as untested or not at some point or another.
<AlwaysLivid>
... That should really be a feature. Could definitely speed things up.
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<AlwaysLivid>
Welcome back, humdinger!
<humdinger>
I'm to stupid to find the bug fix.
<humdinger>
Er... I don't have the time, I mean...
<humdinger>
Let's pack a new .6 release and be done with it
<AlwaysLivid>
FYI: The spam wave has not stopped, I temporarily alleviated this by setting the channel to +s
<AlwaysLivid>
humdinger, I'm also adding the rest of the architectures as "untested" to the recipe and bumping the required Haiku build version to r1~beta1
<humdinger>
damn the spamn
<humdinger>
why not r1~beta2 ?
<AlwaysLivid>
Dunno, didn't seem to old enough for me to completely reject it and gatekeep users that haven't updated yet.
<AlwaysLivid>
But we'd do this either way at some point later down the line, so, whatever.
<nephele[m]>
we don't build packages for beta1
<AlwaysLivid>
I just assumed that a person would fetch the Haikuports tree under an old version for testing
<AlwaysLivid>
probably an extreme scenario that we shouldn't care about
<nephele[m]>
but adding needless requiremeents seems a bit silly
<nephele[m]>
maybe do it when something changes?
<AlwaysLivid>
nobody tests vision against that very old alpha revision though
<AlwaysLivid>
so it's like, we might as well completely remove the version requirement
<Begasus>
why version haiku anyway in the recipe?
<AlwaysLivid>
not sure why the version requirement was introduced in the first place
<AlwaysLivid>
I have no idea but I'm assuming that it's because of some very old feature built into after that revision?
<nephele[m]>
probably something changed at that hrev that vision required
<Begasus>
Probably some left over from the first generation recipes?
<AlwaysLivid>
Just gonna remove it, no point in thinking about this
<AlwaysLivid>
inb4 *planet explodes*
<humdinger>
Anything else that needs changing in Vision before I publish .6?
<humdinger>
I notice that the context menu in Vision's status bar doesn't have the log URL.
<nephele[m]>
Why certainly, the ui could use some improvements :P
<AlwaysLivid>
Is it because it's all way too long? humdinger
<humdinger>
Doesn't it get all URLs from the MOTD?
<nephele[m]>
it should humdinger
<AlwaysLivid>
I could also go ahead and translate the entire thing to Greek, lol.
<AlwaysLivid>
Shouldn't take long? But frankly, let's not right now.
<humdinger>
nothing after the Matrix URL appears in the pop-up menu
<AlwaysLivid>
Those were new additions
<AlwaysLivid>
Hm, could be a buffer size thing?
<humdinger>
I'll hold off the .6 release then.
<humdinger>
Unfortunately, I have some errands to run and won't have time till the evening.
<AlwaysLivid>
I'll take a look
<humdinger>
great! gotta run...
<humdinger>
cu guys later!
* humdinger
waves
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<AlwaysLivid>
What does theTopic.RemoveFirst(":"); do?
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<Begasus_32>
plop
<Begasus>
ok, that works so far
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<puck_>
AlwaysLivid: the way that the message is represented is ":server.example.com 332 <client> <channel> :<topic>" -- i presume the RemoveFirst is to remove that leading colon
<AlwaysLivid>
puck_, hm, so that's why the rest of the topic is not affected, cool!
<AlwaysLivid>
I'm definitely sure that this issue regarding the topic being cut off for being too large is buffer-related...
<AlwaysLivid>
It checks if the pointer is empty, then defines fTopic as the value of theTopic, there's an initialized BString buffer;
<AlwaysLivid>
then sets the value of pStatusView() as STATUS_META, FilterCrap(theTopic, true).String(), FilterCrap() being a function that returns a BString
<HAIKU-irker838>
00ba3fd01b0c: Revert "freebsd_wlan: apply net80211 commits from FreeBSD 13 except four commits"
<julicenri>
It's the RISC-V port that can boot to desktop, open terminal, and whatnot.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Question, does HAIKU-irker generate random usernames? That will eventually cause a problem in Matrix with the user list...
<PulkoMandy>
use XMPP :D
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Dang it Pulko, lol.
<PulkoMandy>
can Matrix really not handle the fact that users can leave a room?
<nephele[m]>
Panos: the state will acxumulate yes
<julicenri>
What's XMPP?
<julicenri>
:P
<Niklas[m]1>
I see only one HAIKU-irker in the user list,so it shouldn't be a problem?
<nephele[m]>
pulkomandy: yes it does, but it remembers them forever
<shaka444[m]>
<julicenri "shaka444: Where is the ARM port "> at the bottom of this page is the current ports nightly images. https://download.haiku-os.org/ I don't know the state of each port and my comment about booting to desktop seems to be RISC-V not ARM
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Jesus, this appbridge really needs a lot of work
<PulkoMandy>
how do they plan for this to scale? I mean, this channel is 20 years old, surely a LOT of people ahve joined then left?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I have no idea, but I'll have to really do some work on it or scream at someone to do so.
<nephele[m]>
matrix rooms work similar to git repos pulkomandy
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid[m], anyway, to reply to your question, ARM packages are not tested at all currently
<nephele[m]>
i am not aware of them planning any state collapsing or such
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
so there's not a single arm package that has been rested on the platform?
<julicenri>
shaka444[m]: Yeah, those ARM images at the Haiku downloads page IIRC are still not past the bootloader stage.
<nephele[m]>
but each normal message references its ancestors, called 'state events' which are join or leave mesaages, topic chcanges etc
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Yup, it's super cool
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid[m], currently the only packages we have were built from haikuports.cross (a separate set of recipes from the normal haikuports) and are used to build haiku for ARM
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
but the whole bridging thing has to mature
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
or I'll run a lot of forks
<PulkoMandy>
they get some testing in the sense that we manage to build an haiku package using them, but basically that only tests gcc and binutils so far
<julicenri>
What's the current progress on upstreaming the RISC-V port's code?
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: matrix appservice irc has been horrible for literal years, not much work there
<PulkoMandy>
julicenri, it has not even been submitted to our code review tool
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
they're also very often visual bugs that are very hard to track down OR kernel work, I remember scrolling through the entire list 6 months ago
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
it has accumulated a lot of old tasks that nobody has managed to take on and stuff
<PulkoMandy>
yes
<PulkoMandy>
I have removed the tag from several ones
<PulkoMandy>
but I'm not so good at knowing what's easy or not
<PulkoMandy>
so maybe you can help, if you think something is not easy, just remove the tag from it :)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
True
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I'll have to take a better look
<PulkoMandy>
and we should see about adding actually easy tasks, or completing the existing ones with more detailed instructions so they actually become easy
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
but I think we'll also have to consider how to get more people to help and make Haiku even more approachable
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I'll think it through
<PulkoMandy>
a good list of easy tasks is one of the best ways to do this I think?
<PulkoMandy>
but I mean a good list, our current one isn't
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Yeah, stuff like this has to be very actively curated and maintained, maybe.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
We could bring out new stuff based on complaints and IRC conversations, as well as some EasyTasks
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Haiku made me more confident to contribute to open source, but that was largely because of another project meant to help me make me more comfortable with contributing to Haiku. That seems like an interesting way to emulate that, because many people want to contribute but it's always this outlandish
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
"I suck at developing systems!" sort of imposter syndrome-ish barrier
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
when it's not even just that
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I will jot that down, alongside with a website reorganization.
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<PulkoMandy>
the easy task lists has things like "fix compiler warnings" and "we need these old articles on our website reformatted to fit our current website design"
<PulkoMandy>
certainly these don't require high knowledge of OS things
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
True
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Yeah, I agree, but it's like
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
EasyTasks sort of feels like "Hey, if you want to get started, here's a long list of chores we don't want to touch" rather than the entire recurring problem of "we haven't had the time to touch"
<PulkoMandy>
there are several other things in the list that clearly shouldn't be there however
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I'll take a look soon.
<PulkoMandy>
yes, tickets that have been open for 10 years likely shouldn't be there. They may not be actually easy :)
<PulkoMandy>
the "fix all warnings" one could do with a more in-depth tutorial (as we would have done for Google Code-In) showing how to do it for one particular system component
<PulkoMandy>
maybe we should review our list of GCI tasks too, but it was really more haikuports than haiku
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Also, yeah, tickets don't have instructions
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
or the instructions are either vague or buried deep down
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
something like a weekly/biweekly thing explaining stuff like this with some marketing like "work on your own operating system" could work, but I'd need help
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Perhaps the promotional team may be interested in helping eventually?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Hm, who in here said that "it was a nice feeling to see your name mentioned in a change log"?
<shaka444[m]>
I’ll talk to the team about it Panos
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Got it!
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I think that we'd need to pile up a very large list of tasks to do beforehand, because spending 2 hours every week to do this and organizing in such a manner would be very counterintuitive.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
(also known as: please throw all of that my way)
<PulkoMandy>
I can help if you have question about any specific ticket (or at least tell you who to ask)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
... Hm, what was said earlier regarding the keyboard shortcuts and the menus being inconsistent?
<PulkoMandy>
just extended the -Werror one a bit, not sure if it's enough for you to understand what's involved
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
(And that's why you use mailing lists. I'm really not sure how to navigate 8 hours of conversations)
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<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Yeah, I'm familiar with the error, it's just whether I'd be able to convey it.
<PulkoMandy>
probably not enough for a complete newcomer still, but I'm too lazy to do that part so I'll leave it to you :D
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
I really won't be able to pull all of that myself, to be honest.
<PulkoMandy>
no, but you can ask me more questions about it until it's understandable
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Would it be worthwhile compiling documents regarding internal procedures including monthly updates?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Just a random thought.
<PulkoMandy>
in general more blog activity on the website would be nice too, just people telling what they are up to and how they fixed this or that bug
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
... Also, I have a huge problem with an inconsistency between the blog and the news section. E.g. Code-In 2019 has results in the News section, 2018 is in a Blog
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
Not sure how I'd fix that.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
That's actually one of the first things I want to address during reorganizing the website
<PulkoMandy>
is there a procedure for monthly updates? seems to be "PulkoMandy notices that once again no one has done it for 6 weeks and writes some blogposts by looking at the git history and trying to group the changes by arbitrary categories and providing a little context"
<PulkoMandy>
blogs and news were a lot more separate when we used drupal for the website
<PulkoMandy>
now blogs just get shown on the homepage
<PulkoMandy>
and so news got a bit disused
<PulkoMandy>
(probably also for the lack of a marketing team who would write news posts)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
the code-in results belong to news, right?
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
as a point of reference
<PulkoMandy>
probably, but the GSoC results are just static pages in community/gsoc and not all of them got news
<PulkoMandy>
(the static pages are better in the long term)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
what the heck
<PulkoMandy>
for the monthly reports, actually it started as my personal blog when I was working on webkit full-time (I had weekly reports mainly on my own work at that time)
<PulkoMandy>
when my contract stopped I kind of continued doing the monthly reports
<PulkoMandy>
but it was not something coordinated or whatever
<PulkoMandy>
I'm happy with someone else taking care of it, as long as they do it for more than 1 month
<PulkoMandy>
several people have tried but they felt they did not know enough about Haiku internals to extract useful meaning from the git logs
<PulkoMandy>
which I think makes sense
<AlwaysLivid>
I think that we should also send stuff to be included in a changelog as soon as the change is done.
<AlwaysLivid>
instead of scrapping and trying to desperately scroll through everything and decide what's newsworthy and what isn't
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<AlwaysLivid>
maybe the relative lack of coordination between different teams is what leads to situations such as the one with the sound competitions
<AlwaysLivid>
*competition
<AlwaysLivid>
but I'm not quite sure how to achieve anything better without proprietary solutions
<AlwaysLivid>
maybe a pad could be fine? that's what a lot of other projects do
<AlwaysLivid>
organizing a lot of pads monthly
<PulkoMandy>
have no hope for the developer team to be of any help
<B2IA>
(BrunoSpr) hello
<PulkoMandy>
but they usually do write good commit messages
<AlwaysLivid>
I like kanban boards and pads
<AlwaysLivid>
that's what tor does in their meetings, for example, and that's what libera.chat used most recently to take note of new prospective volunteers
<AlwaysLivid>
hi BrunoSpr
<PulkoMandy>
there are pleinty of opensource kanboards out there
<PulkoMandy>
but this only works if people want to use them
<AlwaysLivid>
thought there already was one that's being used by the promotional team
<AlwaysLivid>
or marketing team, i'm not even sure how you're all called sorry
<PulkoMandy>
and Trac is just a massively upscaled kanboard anyway, and fits the way the dev team works
<AlwaysLivid>
well, tor did have a trac too, as well as pads, it's not like they used them to take note of every single change
<AlwaysLivid>
but they, and other projects, did for changelogs
<AlwaysLivid>
maybe it would be a very good idea to look at how other fully remote non-profit organizations operate and are organized and somehow implement that or reach a consensus as far as how we can do that in order to operate in a more efficient manner
<PulkoMandy>
what do you think is not efficient in our way to do things?
<PulkoMandy>
it seems pretty low-friction to me
<AlwaysLivid>
see: sound competition, for example
<AlwaysLivid>
or the fact that you spend probably half-to-one hour every month, if not more, looking at what was most recently merged and writing a post about it when it could be ready for example and released on a given interval
<AlwaysLivid>
not saying it's bad, it's just that it could be better and everyone over here has a lot of load to deal with
<PulkoMandy>
I will waste more time telling people "please add this to the changelog" in code reviews than I will spend writing activity reports
<AlwaysLivid>
not if it's a publicly writable pad though, right?
<PulkoMandy>
I don't see how that helps then
<PulkoMandy>
I still have to go through it, and redact it in a proper way for the website
<PulkoMandy>
and then look at the git history anyway to make sure nothing was forgotten
<PulkoMandy>
so may as well skip directly to that step
<AlwaysLivid>
distributing the work and not shifting through all of the content and deciding what's good and what isn't, for example
<PulkoMandy>
the way to distribute the work would be to create a merge request on the website at the start of the month and have people update it with what they're doing
<PulkoMandy>
and publish that every month and create a new one
<AlwaysLivid>
........................................ a merge request?
<PulkoMandy>
yes, create a branch on git where people add their things to the article
<PulkoMandy>
merge it to the main branch at the end of the month
<PulkoMandy>
but I know everyone will forget about it and I still will need to read the git history and fill up the missing parts anyway
<PulkoMandy>
so, does it really help?
<AlwaysLivid>
that would literally add so much time because you'd have to deal with git
<AlwaysLivid>
so no, excuse me for being so direct but that sounds downright awful
<PulkoMandy>
then maybe the website shouldn't be in git
<PulkoMandy>
but no one listens to me when I say that
<AlwaysLivid>
well, for now, we could just not write stuff in git and avoid using it until the point where we have to
<PulkoMandy>
so then, who puts it in git in the end?
<PulkoMandy>
because if that's still me, I'd rather keep my existing workflow :)
<AlwaysLivid>
someone, a single person, who can deal with git, could be me, could be another person authoring the reports
<AlwaysLivid>
but it's like - you'd rather write everything yourself than slightly format a file, track it and push it?
<PulkoMandy>
I don't believe that the changelog (wherever it is) will be filled by anyone
<PulkoMandy>
prove me wrong if you can :D
<AlwaysLivid>
well, we could reach a consensus and agree on something, but unnecessarily absolute stances will definitely not help towards me proving you wrong
<AlwaysLivid>
might as well call it a self-fulfilling prophecy? idk
<PulkoMandy>
also sometimes I intentionally put smaller things in the reports to highlight people contributing for the first time, and they wouldn't dare to add themselves in a changelog
<PulkoMandy>
if you want to try this I happily let you handle the report for june (or july or whenever you are ready) in this way and we can see what happens
<PulkoMandy>
if it's a complete failure I can always come back at the end of the month with my way of doing this and it will not make my life harder anyways, so... :>
<PulkoMandy>
and if it works, I don't have to write activity reports for that month and maybe for the following ones, which is good for me
<beaglejoe>
Hi new(ish) dev here. I would not add anything to a projects changelog, unless asked.
<AlwaysLivid>
well, I did consider that in the sense that another reviewer could also add this as some sort of a bookmark
<AlwaysLivid>
I definitely still wouldn't add myself to a changelog lol
<PulkoMandy>
yes, no one wants to add themselves (damn introverts!)
<AlwaysLivid>
nevermind it to be honest, i'll find something else to tinker around with because it may be a better strategy to just optimize and fix anything else that's not as invasive
<PulkoMandy>
so here I am collecting everyone's work and highlighting the parts I think are relevant
<AlwaysLivid>
but i am really not sure if people would just respond to the mail if i were to even suggest anything like that
<AlwaysLivid>
either way, if we are to use means to organize ourselves, would we use framapad/riseup or host our own pad for example?
<AlwaysLivid>
many projects use either these of these options
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<PulkoMandy>
framasoft is annoyed at everyone using their tools :>
<AlwaysLivid>
...................................... wait what
<PulkoMandy>
their initial goal was "let's show that not everything has to be centralized at Google"
<PulkoMandy>
now it's "let's show that not everything has to be centralized at Framasoft"
<AlwaysLivid>
but now they can't sell ads or look like hypocrites? :P
<beaglejoe>
The more tools you use, the greater the learning curve for new contributors
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, they're the ones working on peertube right?
<PulkoMandy>
yes
<AlwaysLivid>
beaglejoe, a simple pad explaining 'here's what we're working on' or a to-do list would really not be bad though right
<AlwaysLivid>
it's not like it's SVN
<AlwaysLivid>
just a notepad
<PulkoMandy>
anyway, not sure a pad would be the best way for this, I would consider adding something to commit messages (+changelog) or to gerrit hashtags could work well enough
<AlwaysLivid>
how is the promotional team organized even? i've noticed they have some nice interesting approaches
<beaglejoe>
anything is ok for reading, but if you want devs to add things to it, they have to learn it
<PulkoMandy>
I have not looked at the promo team kanboard
<PulkoMandy>
I know they have a forum topic
<PulkoMandy>
do they have a spearate chat channel? don't even know
<PulkoMandy>
also regarding the sound context: I think the person who launched it had been warned that system sounds don't work currently
<PulkoMandy>
I don't know what they expected, that it would magically fix itself, or that having system sounds to use would somehow put presure on the devteam to fix things?
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<PulkoMandy>
the first choice seems unrealistic, and the second seems unappropriate tactics and the dev team would not like that
<PulkoMandy>
in any case I don't put it in the "lack of communication between teams" category
<nephele[m]>
I never votes in that thing, how am i supposed to determine what a good theme is if i cant test it :)
<PulkoMandy>
everyone was well aware of what they were doing there
<PulkoMandy>
and also the ticket to fix system sounds isn't in the "most voted tickets" list so I assume the users either side with te devs or don't care about this thing
<AlwaysLivid>
beaglejoe, there are problems to deal with and even if my approach may not be necessarily the best, it's still true that fixing a problem in order to spend less time and be more productive *will* require shaking the waters a little bit
<AlwaysLivid>
it's not like there haven't been a couple of very nice tool additions to haiku over the years
<AlwaysLivid>
i'm also heavily trying to consider what the best way would be and how to gradually roll it out than me saying 'hey every single developer, you should file that thing in that document now', pulko's right when he says that there's a not negligible if not probable chance that this would happen
<beaglejoe>
AlwaysLivid, True enough, people get used to new tools
<beaglejoe>
Very quickly when they increase productivity!
<PulkoMandy>
I'm just a single and grumpy developer
<AlwaysLivid>
it's not like the people that worked as e-mail server operators 20 years ago got kicked out oft he job market
<PulkoMandy>
you can ignore me
<PulkoMandy>
you should probably ignore me in this case
<AlwaysLivid>
well, what you're saying has some sort of truth to it
<PulkoMandy>
maybe, but let's try it and see what happens
<nephele[m]>
You can just have the next report in the sourcetree and append stuff with commits :p
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: webkit kinda did it like that, and it worked for them
<AlwaysLivid>
........ i don't know, but that's why i was worried about the matrix thing
<kallisti5>
I need to move everything over to nekobot
<kallisti5>
irker has a habbit of joining and parting
<PulkoMandy>
it's different for webkit
<AlwaysLivid>
nephele[m], webkit isn't haiku though
<nephele[m]>
If the matrix bridge burns down you can replace it with a new room so, eh
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: so?
<PulkoMandy>
what they do is have every commit message duplicated in a changelog file
<AlwaysLivid>
which is nice, if you're a developer
<PulkoMandy>
the reason they do it is because they used svn and svn doesn't allow yo to do something like "git log" to see the log
<AlwaysLivid>
they recently opened up to git though right
<nephele[m]>
they still do this on git
<PulkoMandy>
so it's different because 1) we use git and 2) what we would want is not the git log, but something only with "important" changes
<PulkoMandy>
yes, they have switched to git but not changed anything else to their process (yet)
<AlwaysLivid>
can we just sue apple for being anti-competitive? and not accepting our patches it's not like this isn't the norm nowadays
<AlwaysLivid>
dear apple lawyer reading this, this is a joke
<PulkoMandy>
I warned them that if they stop there it will not help in making it easier to contribute there
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, they would accept our patches
<PulkoMandy>
if we submitted them
<AlwaysLivid>
oh, wait, that was firefox?
<AlwaysLivid>
the entity that would not accept patches
<PulkoMandy>
probably Chrome? where we didn't even try
<nephele[m]>
tbh, i think that should be a kind of addon data in a repo, but i dont think git nicely supports that
<PulkoMandy>
but they are rejecting patches for *BSD support
<AlwaysLivid>
nerds
<PulkoMandy>
WebKit is a real open source project where there are other people than Apple contributing (currently Igalia maintaining WPE and GTK ports and Sony maintaining the Playstation version)
<PulkoMandy>
in the past there were also people from Qt, Samsung, and Google
<AlwaysLivid>
and other parties working desperately to add exploits so that they can homebrew their Nintendo Switch
<nephele[m]>
qtwebkit seems to have a resurgence now
<AlwaysLivid>
also a joke, webkit lawyers
<AlwaysLivid>
hm, i think we could try to tackle the beast known as firefox gradually after gtk+ support is in
<AlwaysLivid>
maybe
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: you can contribute to haikuwebkit too, we made some progress recently also
<PulkoMandy>
yes, please, more people helping on haikuwebkit would be great
<AlwaysLivid>
webkits scare me, a lot
<PulkoMandy>
it's just a lot of C++ code
<nephele[m]>
ideally it would be upstream, but we need about 2 devs i think initially to get it there
<AlwaysLivid>
... is that a requirement?
<PulkoMandy>
at least it's written in a single language, unlike Firefox which is a mix of at least C, C++ and Rust currently?
<PulkoMandy>
not a requirement from webkit
<PulkoMandy>
a requirement from me
<nephele[m]>
it also has obj-C and swift, but we dont have to care
<PulkoMandy>
because currently all I can do on webkit is merging their changes in our branch and I have no time to also do the patch submission to their bugtracker
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: i would work on ipstreaming webkit if a second dev helped
<AlwaysLivid>
I'm not sure if we somehow have to find more developers before we can get started with the efforts to recruit even more developers for stuff.
<nephele[m]>
pulkomandy has a lot to do already :)
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah, that's why i'm sort of trying to just take the weight off
<AlwaysLivid>
will we keep have to maintaining it very proactively in the long run?
<AlwaysLivid>
or do we just upstream the code, then okay, we can just use webkit straight up from the upstream the same way we do with mesa now
<PulkoMandy>
our port was already upsrteamed once, they kept it for like two years completely unmaintained before they dropped it
<nephele[m]>
for sure, but it will be much easier, revasing will not be needed and webkit upstream sees directly if they break our port
<PulkoMandy>
we will need to keep an eye on it, but it would be easier than what I'm doing now with the merges
<PulkoMandy>
because when they do a big search-and-replace they would do it in our code too
<AlwaysLivid>
that would definitely sound easier, yeah
<AlwaysLivid>
how much prospective maintenance effort are we talking about and how can i help?
<PulkoMandy>
and ideally we would provide a buildbot so they can know when they break our build
<AlwaysLivid>
...... how can we even provide a buildbot?
<PulkoMandy>
apt install buildbot-slave?
<nephele[m]>
i am going to try and provide the buildbot in 2 weeks
<AlwaysLivid>
............. does the whole CI thing i wanted to poke at have to get involved?
<PulkoMandy>
kallisti5 has already got the agreement from haiku-inc to host it
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, yes that would be one way to do it
<AlwaysLivid>
kallisti5's also responsible for the vagrant port, right?
<julicenri>
Surely there must be a way to use Gecko without the GTK interface?
<nephele[m]>
(or kallisti5 does it yeah)
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, what's the status of gtk+ again?
<PulkoMandy>
or we can just do something similar to haikuports, running haiku in a vm and running the buildbot client in there
<nephele[m]>
julicenri: why gecko..?
<PulkoMandy>
julicenri, yes, but why do this when we have already ported webkit?
<PulkoMandy>
there has to be a good reason to throw away 10 years of work :)
<PulkoMandy>
(I would take it badly because a lot of it is my work :) )
<julicenri>
Well, it could be a way to get a browser built on Gecko without having to worry about the GTK bits.
<AlwaysLivid>
that smiley face makes it sound like one of your plans based on the response of julicenri is to assassinate them
<julicenri>
bruh
<PulkoMandy>
we have a browser built on WebKit
<PulkoMandy>
which is a web engine designed to be portable and blend in well with native APIs
<AlwaysLivid>
julicenri, not sure if your lawyers should see this as a joke :P
<PulkoMandy>
and is working fine
<beaglejoe>
where is the buildbot? Link on website is 404
<julicenri>
AlwaysLivid: My lawyers are writing a cease and desist as we speak. :P
<PulkoMandy>
beaglejoe, which one? build.haiku-os.org ?
<beaglejoe>
Yes
<PulkoMandy>
seems to work for me?
<julicenri>
Somewhat related, what's the status of QtWebEngine (and Falkon by extension)?
<PulkoMandy>
and also means the text rendering is not the same as in other places in the OS, for example
<julicenri>
nephele[m]: Oh yeah, it's a bit wild to realize that most of the web engine market is essentially dominated by KHTML descendants.
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<AlwaysLivid>
also another interesting idea that i had: you all organize events where you hack the kernel afterwards after fosdem and stuff, right?
<AlwaysLivid>
....... fosdem went online this year and it somehow miraculously sort of worked
<AlwaysLivid>
so, some sort of development-related sprinting marathon thing taking place on the internet could be interesting?
<nephele[m]>
how is that different to what we do now?
<PulkoMandy>
sounds like my typical week-end?
<nephele[m]>
the good part of coding sprints is direct feedback
<AlwaysLivid>
the difference could just be like, stopping everything we all are doing
<AlwaysLivid>
and just shifting our full attention to passerbies interested in contributing
<PulkoMandy>
I could stop hacking on haiku to hack on haiku instead?
<AlwaysLivid>
it's just an idea, but it's one of the invasive ones
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<PulkoMandy>
more seriously, my main problem with this is that after spending the week working with a team at my paid job with several videocalls and the like, I don't want to get into more of that during weekends
<PulkoMandy>
otherwise, there are already structures in place for this kind of things, again done by Framasoft
<PulkoMandy>
but that's more local to France I guess
<PulkoMandy>
you could ask them what/how they do
<kallisti5>
AlwaysLivid: yeah, I manage the vagrant port
<AlwaysLivid>
my plan would've been to ask a few people i know to generously provide jitsi infrastructure
<kallisti5>
AlwaysLivid: though... Vagrant seems a little dead
<win8linux[m]>
Also for coding sprints that are fully remote, different timezones have to be accounted for.
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<PulkoMandy>
well
<AlwaysLivid>
win8linux[m], I also considered that, but maybe don't think of it as a coding sprint
<AlwaysLivid>
since I'm more interested in getting people involved with Haiku
<PulkoMandy>
our in-person coding sprint sometimes have one or two persons working all night
<PulkoMandy>
or some working until 3am and others waking up at 6
<AlwaysLivid>
I was also considering livestreaming myself coding on Haiku, the same way Andreas Kling does over at SerenityOS
<PulkoMandy>
so, timezones may not matter as much as they normally do :D
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, yes, ambroff has done some sessions on his github channel, was interesting to watch
<AlwaysLivid>
"until everyone is vaccinated" what if i am very much worried and concerned about the safety of the vaccines, will i get thrown off the room or something
<win8linux[m]>
AlwaysLIvid: I recommend taking that up with the promotion team. They may be interested in the idea of helping with dev streams.
<AlwaysLivid>
because i sure hope so and thank you for mentioning this
<PulkoMandy>
(I learnt a few things about being more detailed in my code review comments by watching him try to understand what I was saying)
<AlwaysLivid>
maybe it's not a good idea to joke about stuff like that when there's people being entirely very serious about this
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, will give that a check
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: you can educate yourself about them, nobody is forcing you
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, we can have a separate room for the anti-vaccine people? I guess? And yes personally I prefer if they also contribute to another project while we're at it?
<AlwaysLivid>
I was just joking, not an anti-vaxxer :P
<julicenri>
heh
<nephele[m]>
i realize this is controversial in some countries for no reason, but for my prr i am happy to be a cyborg before the rest
<AlwaysLivid>
"if they also contribute to another project while we're at it?" ahdjsahdsajefwgod
<kallisti5>
I've been fully vaxed for months. The microchips are working just fine
<julicenri>
New contribution guideline for Haiku:
<julicenri>
Must not be an anti-vaxxer
<AlwaysLivid>
kallisti5, good 5G reception?
<AlwaysLivid>
julicenri, brb opening the new PR in the community guidelines
<kallisti5>
AlwaysLivid: Pretty good. When my signal is low I tingle a bit
<PulkoMandy>
for me the main secondary effect is people making stupid jokes about 5G and microchips
<PulkoMandy>
otherwise the vaccine is fine
<kallisti5>
lol
<julicenri>
kallisti5: Would you recommend Windows 10 to a friend or colleague?
<kallisti5>
no?
<kallisti5>
Lord... haven't run Windows in my house for like 15 years
<AlwaysLivid>
"Hi colleague, you should really try Windows 10!"
<AlwaysLivid>
"You must try Windows 10!"
<AlwaysLivid>
"You. must."
* AlwaysLivid
glock reloading sounds
<julicenri>
kallisti5: Do you feel more positively about Bill Gates post-vaccination?
<julicenri>
:P
<kallisti5>
lol.. At least it's more lively in here after moving to oftc
<PulkoMandy>
I can't say anything about these "why would I casually recommend an OS to my colleagues?" because I am that one guy giving Haiku DVDs to people out of nowhere
<kallisti5>
PulkoMandy: what's a DVD? Like a record?
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, guess that's why they ask their users questions like this?
<kallisti5>
Haiku on BluRay is the only way
<AlwaysLivid>
Haiku: The Movie
<julicenri>
DVDs? Are those the ones that look like mini-Laserdiscs?
<PulkoMandy>
well at least on a blueray we could fit the whole haikuports?
<AlwaysLivid>
weird question: would it be possible to modify the installer so that it just boots to a user with ssh capabilities instantly instead of the installer and the initial reboot?
<PulkoMandy>
ok let's make a deluxe 4 disc set then? :D
<julicenri>
Recompress using zstd
<kallisti5>
"Bonus features" == source code nobody can use
<julicenri>
ez
<nephele[m]>
kallisti5: yes, but not to each other
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, sounds like a good monetization model
<AlwaysLivid>
like debian
<kallisti5>
nephele[m]: err. I can't argue that logic
<nephele[m]>
I see i'm now famous, on the Renga readme xD
<julicenri>
Haiku Collector's Edition Box Set: Beta 3 when
<AlwaysLivid>
nephele[m], can i have an autograph
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: why would you use installer for that?
<PulkoMandy>
well first I have 500 or so dvds of beta1 that I didn't manage to give or sell to people yet
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<AlwaysLivid>
nephele[m], just a ready-made image that will work on the first boot, no installers
<julicenri>
Are they DVD-RW diiscs?
<AlwaysLivid>
strictly for virtualization purposes
<PulkoMandy>
no
<PulkoMandy>
real pressed DVDs
<AlwaysLivid>
useful for CI/CD
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, still, why go through installer?
* kallisti5
starts googling how much data a vinyl record will hold
<AlwaysLivid>
i'm talking about skipping the installer
<PulkoMandy>
just build an image that directly boots with ssh up?
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: yeah, just disable the service for installer?
<AlwaysLivid>
... how do you do this? (i think i may need to simplify this)
<kallisti5>
hm.. 10MiB
<AlwaysLivid>
like if there is a build parameter or whatever
<nephele[m]>
no, you don't really, it's hust launch daemon stuff :)
<julicenri>
Got an idea PulkoMandy: How about donating the DVDs to computer or tech museums as hiostorical artifacts? :D
<julicenri>
*historical
<nephele[m]>
unless you want ro make an explicit new target, you can do that i suppose
<AlwaysLivid>
an explicit new target that just slightly modifies the behavior of launch_daemon, basically
<AlwaysLivid>
so that backends can build this automatically without human intervention
<nephele[m]>
the behaviour would be unchanged
<nephele[m]>
just a different launched target i guess
<PulkoMandy>
you'd just change the launch target, yes
<PulkoMandy>
remove "desktop" and add "server" or whatever
<AlwaysLivid>
i think i'm confused because i'm unfamiliar with this
<kallisti5>
You too can own Haikuports, pressed onto this beautiful 9,831 piece Vinyl record set.
<PulkoMandy>
and you probably want to preset an username and password or ssh key
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, good idea, but password
<kallisti5>
Each record comes handsomely adorned with handwritten messages of love by PulkoMandy
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, there's a set of text files describing the boot process and sequencing different thing
<AlwaysLivid>
kallisti5, "roses are read, violence is blue, use XMPP"
<PulkoMandy>
you can add and remove to it
<AlwaysLivid>
i have no idea why or how i came up with this
<AlwaysLivid>
got it
* kallisti5
envisioned PulkoMandy locked in a basement scrawling XMPP over and over
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<AlwaysLivid>
let's get a mixtape going
<julicenri>
The Nylon Squares band miixtape
<PulkoMandy>
it seems I have been too annoying with pushing for XMPP lately?
<kallisti5>
Just a friendly reminder we have permission to ship the BeOS theme song with Haiku
<nephele[m]>
nah, its just too much matrix ;)
<AlwaysLivid>
it's the single quote you've said the most over the past week?
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah it's matrix disease
<AlwaysLivid>
we haven't escaped it yet
<win8linux[m]>
boo
<win8linux[m]>
>:D
<PulkoMandy>
well matrixdotorg started following me on Twitter
<AlwaysLivid>
kallisti5, we could technically also ship it for nostalgia reasons when we get the sounds working lol
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, they did?
<PulkoMandy>
not sure what to make of it
<AlwaysLivid>
can you tell them to follow me too so i can scream at them
<AlwaysLivid>
you hate them so nothing is lost
<kallisti5>
PulkoMandy: ask them for an XMPP -> Matrix bridge
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, they follow me under the organization account i am running
<PulkoMandy>
I fear the matrix mob will reply to my tweet about how xmpp is better now
<PulkoMandy>
I know no project or person that I would need Matrix to reach, anyway
<kallisti5>
Lol.. I can see it now. PulkoMandy is on IRC via XMPP -> Matrix -> IRC
<AlwaysLivid>
... I could partially support some of that, but it'd have to happen on my own infrastructure.
<AlwaysLivid>
Also yeah, such setups somehow work splendidly. kallisti5
<AlwaysLivid>
Most of the time.
<win8linux[m]>
AlwaysLivid: Ayy, that's a nice protocol you got there. It'd be such a shame if we make a bad bridge for it.
<win8linux[m]>
*made
<PulkoMandy>
well, xmpp <-> irc <-> beshare seems crazy enough for me, for now
<win8linux[m]>
PulkoMandy: Do the XMPP is better tweet, for the chaos that will ensue.
<win8linux[m]>
do it
<AlwaysLivid>
i will retweet
<AlwaysLivid>
oh my god the matrix appservice runs on node.js
<nephele[m]>
yes it does
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<nephele[m]>
pulkomandy: i think you mispelled nickname in the readme
<PulkoMandy>
possibly
<PulkoMandy>
but I fixed another typo, so it's OK? :D
<nephele[m]>
I wish the compiler would have a dyslexic mode, 75% of my issues are mispelling constants ;)
<AlwaysLivid>
which reminds me
<AlwaysLivid>
If there was a single most notable project that would definitely be designed in an entirely different way if a single transgender person took part in it, that would probably be Git.
<nephele[m]>
... how so?
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<AlwaysLivid>
Immutable history of past names.
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<nephele[m]>
???
<AlwaysLivid>
What?
<AlwaysLivid>
If I commit something under my current name, it's there forever. I can't just update it without breaking everyone's tree.
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<nephele[m]>
what does that have to do with anything?
<AlwaysLivid>
Are you familiar with the practice of deadnaming?
<PulkoMandy>
you can use a mailmap file
<PulkoMandy>
I do to generate pulkomandy.tk/stats/ for example
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: did the past really happen?
<PulkoMandy>
but there are others for the users (I guess home/config/data/launch) and there are yet others in writable directories (either settings or non-packaged/data)
<AlwaysLivid>
what about the source code?
<PulkoMandy>
src/servers/launch
<PulkoMandy>
(should I be worried that I know this without even looking?)
<AlwaysLivid>
how long have you been working on this again?
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<PulkoMandy>
I have commit access since summer 2009, but at that point had been doing some things since 2008 after a first failed GSoC application
<beaglejoe>
Thanks, they are picked up from data/launch/* ??
<PulkoMandy>
and before that had been running BeOS since 2005 or so?
<PulkoMandy>
beaglejoe, yes
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<BrunoSpr>
hi all
<BrunoSpr>
DiskUsage is not working anymore here on 32bit Haiku nightly
<BrunoSpr>
anyone can confirm?
<kallisti5>
BrunoSpr: weird. I'm running x86_64.. let me check
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<kallisti5>
Working here on x86_64
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, so the directory you listed is responsible for generating the launch_daemon file right
<kallisti5>
oh... he's gone
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<AlwaysLivid>
welcome back!
<kallisti5>
BrunoSpr: working here on x86_64
<BrunoSpr>
kallisti5 ok here on 64bit too no problem there
<BrunoSpr>
or here
<kallisti5>
ok. so x86_gcc2 ?
<BrunoSpr>
i try
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<BrunoSpr>
ups..diskUsage does not work here on 32bit
<kallisti5>
BrunoSpr: what happens when you try to use it?
<kallisti5>
Maybe post a screenshot or copy of error text
<BrunoSpr>
no start
<kallisti5>
BrunoSpr: ok. Try running it from the command line
<kallisti5>
(open terminal, type DiskUsage
<BrunoSpr>
ok
<BrunoSpr>
nothing
<BrunoSpr>
no report at all
<BrunoSpr>
there is no error text nor a screenshot would help here
<BrunoSpr>
I rebooted already
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, the script is in the sourcetree in data/launch/*
<BrunoSpr>
try again
<PulkoMandy>
the launch daemon in src/servers/launch is the code running the scrip
<PulkoMandy>
t
<beaglejoe>
BrunoSpr, try Debugger DiskUsage from terminal
<AlwaysLivid>
so that's where the binaries are? PulkoMandy
<PulkoMandy>
DiskUsage is working fine here
<PulkoMandy>
AlwaysLivid, what binaries? src/servers/launch generates /system/servers/launch_daemon
<BrunoSpr>
hmm strange no work here with 321bit hrev 55100
<AlwaysLivid>
got it
<AlwaysLivid>
what about the script that checks the initial boot stuff and whether the machine has been booted for a second time or whatever?
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<PulkoMandy>
that's in the launch scripts, in data/launch/user
<PulkoMandy>
there is a target first_boot near the end of the file and some scripting to decide if it needs to be launched
<PulkoMandy>
(or boot to desktop instead)
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<AlwaysLivid>
maybe having jam put a file somewhere so that it skips the installer could be a better idea?
<PulkoMandy>
that is exactly what is done
<PulkoMandy>
well, rather it's the reverse
<PulkoMandy>
we test if locale settings already exist, if so, we boot to desktop
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah i get it, because i looked at the file and figured out how it worked
<PulkoMandy>
otherwise we go to first boot prompt
<PulkoMandy>
so you could just create the locale settings in jam
<BrunoSpr>
ok after restart still the same nothing happens after start DiskUsage here...
<AlwaysLivid>
hm, so i could just define the locale settings when building?
<PulkoMandy>
yes
<AlwaysLivid>
... that's a good plan
<AlwaysLivid>
not sure where i should check though
<PulkoMandy>
I think there are some examples of how to inject files in your haiku image in build/jam/UserBuildConfig.ReadMe or UserBuildConfig.sample
<PulkoMandy>
build/jam/UserBuildCondif is where you can make local custom changes to the image
<PulkoMandy>
I suggest first get that working, and then you can see how to define a build profile (so you would build, say jam@headless-anyboot for a "headless" image that doesn't run the desktop and only has ssh access)
<BrunoSpr>
DiskUsage does not work here on Haiku nightly 55100 32bit
<PulkoMandy>
BrunoSpr, you have already said this. Make a bugreport about it, but I don't get the problem here, it starts fine for me
<BrunoSpr>
ok
<Plazma>
ahh the new irc network smell
<AlwaysLivid>
welcome! Plazma
<Plazma>
i keep falling out of here on freenode, seems the projects come along way
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<Not-b5c9>
[haiku/website] pulkomandy pushed 1 commit to master [+2/-0/±0] https://git.io/Js91q
<Not-b5c9>
[haiku/website] HrithikKumar49 442ee8a - Blog: Intro post for GSOC 2021, Gerrit bot
<ConditionBoy>
where can i access system font sizes?
<ConditionBoy>
in code, i mean, if i wanted to reference it?
<nephele[m]>
be_default_font be_bold_font etc and you can check its size
<ConditionBoy>
fontSize does not change with the plain font setting in appearances
<PulkoMandy>
did we finish the work on making this update live?
<Begasus>
cu peeps
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<Skipp_OSX>
font updates live maybe not in every app but if you are using the parent BView method and not overriding it
<Skipp_OSX>
be_plain_font should be updated regardless of the view font size too
<ConditionBoy>
okay
<ConditionBoy>
it works
<ConditionBoy>
i forgot about scope
<ConditionBoy>
because i'm a big ol' dummy
<ConditionBoy>
though it is interesting
<ConditionBoy>
if you call `be_plain_font->Size()` after an include, it returns some default value
<ConditionBoy>
i mean not within a method or constructor
<ConditionBoy>
my brain's not owrking
<ConditionBoy>
anyway, it works as expected if you call it within a method or constructor
<nephele[m]>
pulkomandy: fonts don't update live
<ConditionBoy>
nephele[m]: is right
<ConditionBoy>
the appearance app does in some regards
<PulkoMandy>
ah, yes, it has to be called after the link with app_server is established
<ConditionBoy>
but other apps have to be restarted
<PulkoMandy>
so after you created a BApplication basically
<nephele[m]>
I was thinking about doing that maybe, but i ultimately thought it may not be such a good idea because it would resize windows with auto update size linits and such
<nephele[m]>
so i didnt investigate more
<PulkoMandy>
I think looncraz had looked into it after doing the live update for colors
<PulkoMandy>
but I think he did not finish it
<nephele[m]>
(also in the installer a slider to update fonts, with a lice update, would have consistency issues if it were to update slider size too)
<ConditionBoy>
there we go
<ConditionBoy>
niiiiiiice
<ConditionBoy>
that wasn't so hard
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<ConditionBoy>
got an app menu with the app's icon, and it scales with the menu font