<HaikuUser>
i know more hard-boiled engineering types tend not to care about people's opinions unless they prove themselves with code
<AlwaysLivid>
Yeah, that's pretty much every open source contribution ever. But different programs have different dependencies, and you'll have to install these dependencies each time.
<HaikuUser>
anyway, this will eventually boil down at least as deep into haiku itself as the notification system
<AlwaysLivid>
There are IDEs that are both Haiku-exclusive and cross-platform.
<AlwaysLivid>
Most of my small changes to the system so far has been the result of direct feedback from people, as well as me listening and watching YouTube videos of people using the system.
<AlwaysLivid>
But that's just me.
<HaikuUser>
that's groovy, man
<HaikuUser>
i've been following haiku for 15 years
<AlwaysLivid>
that would rock if you think it would make things better
<AlwaysLivid>
it may be worth your time discussing that in the "haiku-development" freelists.org mailing list and explain why you feel like a change sucks, as an end user, and bring up an alternative solution, or just instantly propose a change
<AlwaysLivid>
it's not as much as 'proving your worth', but it may be quicker in some cases and it could possibly be more productive, because people will know exactly what you're going after if it's, say, a major UI revamp, and give proper feedback
<HaikuUser>
but it's like a loop where i can't seem to get to the potatoes of how exactly building haiku on haiku works and how to view the changes i've made
<AlwaysLivid>
I've been talking about having to improve the documentation on that front for quite a bit, but I haven't gotten around to doing so because it seems like a beast
<AlwaysLivid>
anyways, if you have experience as a software developer, apart from that step, it shouldn't really be considerably hard
<AlwaysLivid>
it's just that Haiku has its specific API
<AlwaysLivid>
some people even think the API is very fun
<AlwaysLivid>
hang on
<AlwaysLivid>
HaikuUser, there seems to be a section called "Building & Developing the Haiku Operating System itself"
<AlwaysLivid>
which seems pretty accurate for what you're trying to do, so I'm assuming you haven't missed it and that something's wrong on that end
<AlwaysLivid>
what's up?
<HaikuUser>
nah i obviously clicked that first
<AlwaysLivid>
yeahh lol, i didn't even know that section was there
<HaikuUser>
but it's not exactly exhaustive
<HaikuUser>
i'm not nearly as hard-boiled as a lot of you folks are
<HaikuUser>
i'm an applications developer, but i don't do a lot of the low-level work in that regard
<AlwaysLivid>
you know, that's good, because you have something to bring to the table in comparison to many people in here that have been accustomed to stuff like this, and I'm fairly new around here too
<AlwaysLivid>
you don't have to do low-level work, the only /tough-ish/ part is having to compile Haiku imho
<HaikuUser>
i'm one of those new-school pansies who opens up an ide, targets an api, reads docs and goes
<AlwaysLivid>
I don't think that I've ever touched the kernel apart from removing a memory leak
<HaikuUser>
with little to no concern for all the background stuff the ide is doing to glue it all together
<AlwaysLivid>
HaikuUser, that sounds pretty okay for the circumstance
<HaikuUser>
and again, i'm mostly concerned with ui/ux/hi
<HaikuUser>
so, sorry
<HaikuUser>
i'm chatty lol
<AlwaysLivid>
why are you apologizing
<AlwaysLivid>
oh come onnnnnnnnnn
<HaikuUser>
how did you get started?
<AlwaysLivid>
you're fine and you're good as you are
<AlwaysLivid>
well, I participated in Google Code-In, which was a competition for teenagers to get started with open source development
<AlwaysLivid>
the first task I completed was... adding my name to the credits, compiling Haiku, emulating it and sending a screenshot
<AlwaysLivid>
I did not have a lot of prior experience.
<HaikuUser>
how does compiling haiku work?
<AlwaysLivid>
neither a lot of C++ knowledge, I ended up writing the barebones to an image manipulation program and learned a lot but I lost the source code
<AlwaysLivid>
well, it's very much like your ordinary application
<HaikuUser>
do you need to install the new comp every time you actually want to see the changes?
<AlwaysLivid>
depends on what you're modifying
<AlwaysLivid>
if you're modifying a specific application, you could work around that and only compile that part of the system
<HaikuUser>
is that to say that most changes will be reflected upon compilation?
<HaikuUser>
so you can modify the very haiku that you're running?
<AlwaysLivid>
well, if you make a change, you're supposed to see it, not very much sure about this because I personally don't compile Haiku in Haiku as of right now
<HaikuUser>
so what do you do?
<HaikuUser>
compile it and them emulate the results?
<AlwaysLivid>
well, I use linux, compile haiku, then emulate it in qemu
<HaikuUser>
right, makes sense
<AlwaysLivid>
but it can get exhausting sometimes
<AlwaysLivid>
i'm not very much experienced
<AlwaysLivid>
but I presume that there's a way to build an .hpkg of haiku and update your running system?
<AlwaysLivid>
I'd love to hear an explanation about this as well since it could also improve my workflow, but nobody's that awake right now.
<AlwaysLivid>
if you're experimenting with a GUI i get that this sort of thing can get very tedious though
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<AlwaysLivid>
HaikuUser, I think that compiling Haiku produces the .hpkg files, then puts them all together in one .iso if I remember that right
<AlwaysLivid>
let me experiment a little bit
<HaikuUser>
perhaps if i explain my short-term goals
<HaikuUser>
first thing i want to do is change the way notifications look
<AlwaysLivid>
seems a bit drastic, I love the way this sounds :)
<HaikuUser>
just moving the elements around to start, so they are more in line with the rest of the system ux paradigm
<HaikuUser>
then i want to carry that same ux unification into webpositive, which in my opinion is a travesty of ux breakage
<HaikuUser>
that will require a much more robust series of changes
<AlwaysLivid>
WebPositive is a beast of an application maintained by a singular person, who also has a variety of other severe problems to deal with such as updating WebKit and rebasing Haiku's patches on top of it every single time.
<AlwaysLivid>
I very much think that both of these changes, if done right, would probably be very much desired
<HaikuUser>
i was hoping to parley that into beginning to actually add functionality into haiku itself to leverage its strengths into a more cohesive, cross-application collection of window management actions that make use of haiku's unique and marvellous window management framework
<HaikuUser>
yeah, webpositive is an amazing amount of work
<HaikuUser>
truly incredible
<HaikuUser>
iu don't mean to disparage the engineering of it all
<HaikuUser>
i just want it to be beautiful and consistent with the rest of the system
<AlwaysLivid>
I tried to take a shot at improving the UI but it gave me a huge headache, personally.
<AlwaysLivid>
look, we sort of have a vision here, including with the thing you're talking about: UI/UX
<HaikuUser>
since haiku succeeded beos, it has sadly lost its ux identity in a lot of the additions
<AlwaysLivid>
we, as a community/project, very much need people who are willing to go through with the same efforts that you're thinking of
<HaikuUser>
groovy
<HaikuUser>
i'm into it
<HaikuUser>
i want to make and keep haiku beautiful
<AlwaysLivid>
some UX changes and deviations from BeOS can be good, since this system has been out for 20+ years, but i think we're saying the same sort of thing
<AlwaysLivid>
but yeah, i seriously don't think your efforts will go unappreciated
<HaikuUser>
so people who know more about the inner workings on the engineering side helping me get my bearings with haiku from a dev perspective is very helpful
<AlwaysLivid>
you've installed all the dependencies, right?
<HaikuUser>
yeah, supposedly
<HaikuUser>
git cloned the build tools
<HaikuUser>
as per the instructions on the website
<AlwaysLivid>
you may want to just compile the entire thing for once and understand a little bit of how the process works, before you get to the more specific compilation options that will just work for what you want to do
<HaikuUser>
that's what i figured for myself as well
<HaikuUser>
granted, i was tired last night when i tried this
<AlwaysLivid>
what went wrong?
<HaikuUser>
but i stopped at git cloning haiku because the entire system froze at some point
<HaikuUser>
i went back and deleted that folder
<HaikuUser>
then did some more reading
<HaikuUser>
and didn't see the part where it explains the actual compilation process
<HaikuUser>
i'm browsing those resources more to try and find it
<AlwaysLivid>
we don't really have a tutorial precisely explaining what the compilation steps are, i think
<AlwaysLivid>
on that front, our documentation is like "here's what you need to run to get the job done"
<AlwaysLivid>
Yeah, we do explain why we choose specific parameters over some others.
<AlwaysLivid>
It's just that if you're looking to learn what gets compiled first and how it all ends up in an .iso file, step-by-step, you'd have a much better luck studying the Jamfiles themselves.
<HaikuUser>
alright
<HaikuUser>
i am currently compiling haiku from source on haiku
<AlwaysLivid>
That's the spirit!
<HaikuUser>
maybe the first thing i should do is help improve the documentation
<AlwaysLivid>
Yeah, that's definitely something that we also need help with.
<HaikuUser>
that is lacking in pretty much every software package ever
<AlwaysLivid>
I just pushed a PR to remove an old tutorial.
<AlwaysLivid>
?
<HaikuUser>
except *bsd
<AlwaysLivid>
we have the Haiku book
<HaikuUser>
is the haiku book different from the be book?
<AlwaysLivid>
it's meant to explain the inner workings of the API in great detail, not completely finished
<HaikuUser>
i've been reading that, it's pretty sweet
<AlwaysLivid>
sort of, but the book may be missing something that the be book sort of includes
<HaikuUser>
i wasn't talking about haiku api docs there
<AlwaysLivid>
oh, so the site
<nephele[m]>
haikuuser: yes it is, bebopk is available under no derivitives license
<nephele[m]>
so haiku makes the haiku book from scratch
<HaikuUser>
how come the haiku book isn't included?
<HaikuUser>
or is it?
<AlwaysLivid>
as in, in the system?
<HaikuUser>
i like that the bebook is right there on the desktop
<AlwaysLivid>
we have a user guide
<AlwaysLivid>
obviously meant for different sorts of audiences
<AlwaysLivid>
sounds like a conscious design choice that i don't know how to explain
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah, documentation needs help, the very complicated part about this is the fact that some things are, like, disorganized, and untangling the entire thing is very complicated
<HaikuUser>
i like the user guide being there
<HaikuUser>
makes a lot of sense
<HaikuUser>
i like the bebook being there
<nephele[m]>
honestly i just want some example code in the haiku book :)
<AlwaysLivid>
e.g. "read the next section" but the next section cannot be found in the form of a hyperlink, so you have to traverse
<HaikuUser>
makes a lot of sense as well, though for different reasons
<HaikuUser>
so my connection should be stable, at least
<HaikuUser>
now that i'm here, i guess i might as well try compiling haiku from ym host os\
<HaikuUser>
though something feels kind of dirty about doing that?
<HaikuUser>
also, i should learn to type
<HaikuUser>
by the way, i'm not using a nightly, i'm using the beta
<HaikuUser>
and i get complete system lockup when i try to do stuff in the terminal
<HaikuUser>
maybe that's the cause, maybe it isn't
<AlwaysLivid>
using nightlies for development purposes is recommended
<AlwaysLivid>
especially because that's most of us can help you with; this may be the result of a bug that has been fixed, or maybe not
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<HaikuUser>
duly noted
<AlwaysLivid>
also, if you compile a version of a program meant for a nightly, it may cause compatibility-issues with your system
<AlwaysLivid>
a person who just downgraded from a nightly to beta2 had that problem a bit earlier
<HaikuUser>
so do you compile to a raw image and boot that from qemu?
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid; the hp stuff all targets beta2 :)
<HaikuUser>
my host is also linux
<nephele[m]>
haikuuser: you can if you want, there is @nightly-raw for that afaik
<AlwaysLivid>
nephele[m], that concerns haikuports though, not the built-in applications
<HaikuUser>
so the details of your workflow are helpful for me
<HaikuUser>
what is typical?
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: yeah, but the tree is versioned so.. :)
<AlwaysLivid>
... i'm confused now
<HaikuUser>
i like the idea of doing this all within haiku itself
<HaikuUser>
but i can see this being useful if i want to screw around with non-app stuff
<nephele[m]>
haikuuser: there are devs that use linux as a host and some that use bare metal, both works fine
<nephele[m]>
personally i do my work on a dedicated haiku machine pretty much
<HaikuUser>
nephele[m]: i like your style
<HaikuUser>
guide
<HaikuUser>
guide me lol
<HaikuUser>
though i can't dedicate real hardware at the moment
<HaikuUser>
i imagine it works the same for my purposes
<HaikuUser>
when you compile a new version of haiku on haiku, how do you put that new haiku to use?
<HaikuUser>
from haiku, i mean
<nephele[m]>
I install the new package i compiled mostly
<nephele[m]>
if its single apps i compile only those and run them on the system as such
<HaikuUser>
that makes perfect sense
<nephele[m]>
if its libs the i compuled that and apps and use the updated lib
<HaikuUser>
do you create your own working directory from the git source?
* AlwaysLivid
sits back and also carefully watches because they are really interested in how to finally do this and their dev setup is a living hell
<nephele[m]>
not sure what you mean by that?
<HaikuUser>
like, i'm looking at the source right now
<HaikuUser>
if i wanted to, say, modify webpositive
<HaikuUser>
my instinct is to move webpositive out to its own working directory
<nephele[m]>
ah, no don't do that
<nephele[m]>
it will only make creating patches that much harder
<HaikuUser>
compile it when the time comes and use it alongside the existing webpositive
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah that's definitely going to cause issues a) with jam, b) with git tracking, if you don't do it right
<nephele[m]>
and it wont compile outside of the haiku tree
<nephele[m]>
you can just cd into its dir in the tree and use jam there without an explicit target to compile it
<HaikuUser>
so basically i'm expected to maintain my own local tree?
<nephele[m]>
it will tell you where it made the executable to, and you can hold alt and click the file location in the terminal to immidientlx launch it
<nephele[m]>
well, clone the repo i suppose
<nephele[m]>
its much easier than the other way around :)
<HaikuUser>
groovy
<AlwaysLivid>
... we should write documentation about this, don't we?
<nephele[m]>
the jam build system will automatically build deps and such
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: my workflow is also anecdotal, there are different ones anyhow
<HaikuUser>
but what if i wanted to modify something like notifications?
<AlwaysLivid>
nephele[m], actually let's talk more about it later
<HaikuUser>
for my purposes, i reckon that will be the easiest code to make the changes i want to make
<HaikuUser>
i also reckon that's a bit more complicated to actually new changes for and so on
<HaikuUser>
view new changes*
<nephele[m]>
in that case you might have to run the system either in qemu, or update it and reboot to it
<nephele[m]>
we aso have a test app server, but i dont know if you can easily have its own notification stack in there
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: sure, but ill eat in 5 minutes and im probably only done after 13:30 for today
<AlwaysLivid>
tl;dr cd'ing in a directory and running jam is reasonable and should be documented, right?
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<nephele[m]>
it's not?
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, didn't you just describe that or
<nephele[m]>
maybe make a consise advanced jam usage guide
<nephele[m]>
yeah i think it might be documented somewhere, maybe :p
<AlwaysLivid>
building a single application seems like something that should be documented alongside with the haiku instructions to be honest
<HaikuUser>
nephele[m]: do you run a nightly for your dev environment?
<HaikuUser>
how does that work with persisting your dev?
<nephele[m]>
yes, i run the nightly, but i am not sure what your orher question is about
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<HaikuUser>
how do you keep your system on the latest nightly whilst also persisting your personal files?
<nephele[m]>
i just update it via packages i compiled, you should read up on the package system :)
<nephele[m]>
(alternatively you can update with softwareupdater via the repos too)
<HaikuUser>
well beta 2 keeps freezing in creative new ways whilst trying to build the build tools, so i guess that should be the first thing i do
<HaikuUser>
if i update via softwareupdater from beta 2, does that mean i'm using nightlies?
<HaikuUser>
or is that an entirely separate thing?
<HaikuUser>
i appreciate you folks humoring all my questions, by the way
<HaikuUser>
deeply
<HaikuUser>
well, looking at the details in the softwareupdater, it appears to be a different thing
<nephele[m]>
no, you have to switch repos if you want to use the nightly
<HaikuUser>
so if i nuke this beta 2 install and replace it with, say, hrev55098, when i update via softwareupdater, does that keep me current with nightlies?
<nephele[m]>
just change the repo url
<nephele[m]>
no need for the hammer ;)
<HaikuUser>
would you be willing to tell me how that's done since i have you here?
<HaikuUser>
wait
<HaikuUser>
i'm clicking around
<nephele[m]>
pref/repositories in deskbar
<HaikuUser>
yeah i'm there
<HaikuUser>
do i add a new repository or edit the existing ones?
<nephele[m]>
r1beta2 -> nightly
<nephele[m]>
edit them i suppose
<HaikuUser>
doesn't seem possible
<HaikuUser>
i tried to add a repository with the same url as the one named 'Haiku' but replacing 'r1beta2' with 'nightly'
<nephele[m]>
Well, i mean, you can disable the beta2 ones and add nightly ones or do
<HaikuUser>
didn't seem to like that
<nephele[m]>
just dont have borh active dimultaniously
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<HaikuUser>
alright, seems i've got it figured out
<HaikuUser>
ironically, the system failed updating from the default repository for r1beta2
<HaikuUser>
but it looks like it successfully updated via the nightly repo
<HaikuUser>
i have a much more general question
<AlwaysLivid>
don't ask to ask ^-^
<HaikuUser>
what do 'shine' and 'shadow' represent in the appearance color settings?
<AlwaysLivid>
........................ that's a good one
<AlwaysLivid>
i think i know but i'm really not sure how to describe it
<HaikuUser>
i figured they governed the way gradients were generated on window tabs, controls, etc
<HaikuUser>
but i can't see what effect they're having if that's the case
<AlwaysLivid>
you know how when you have a light source and the color appears much lighter than normal, which is an effect also reproduced in e.g. windows?
<HaikuUser>
if you're talking about windows os, i have never used it in my life
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<AlwaysLivid>
i'm not
<AlwaysLivid>
was referring to the windows in programs
<HaikuUser>
well, i have, but only for a few minutes before i stopped out of disgust
<AlwaysLivid>
but really? no windows whatsoever in your whole life?
<HaikuUser>
ok, then, yeah
<AlwaysLivid>
more of a mac person?
<AlwaysLivid>
:D
<HaikuUser>
yes
<AlwaysLivid>
got it
<HaikuUser>
windows is an abomination
<HaikuUser>
i thought windows was synonymous with computers growing up
<HaikuUser>
and i always hated computers
<AlwaysLivid>
nice profession you chose then :P
<AlwaysLivid>
jk
<HaikuUser>
apple changed my life in an instance
<HaikuUser>
say what you want
<HaikuUser>
and trust me, so do i, especially in regards to modern apple
<AlwaysLivid>
just fooling around ^-^
<HaikuUser>
but back in the days of tiger, when i first laid eyes on this computer that was actually beautiful and useful
<AlwaysLivid>
guess that explains the correlation between that and wanting to improve the UI/UX?
<HaikuUser>
it was like a revelation, that computers could be beatiful and elegant and powerful all at the same time
<HaikuUser>
i bought my first computer that day
<HaikuUser>
it changed my life
<HaikuUser>
anyway, back to shine and shadow
<HaikuUser>
i think that beos and haiku share a lot of that opinionated, elegant direction underpinning osx
<HaikuUser>
i hate seeing it bastardised into a more windows-like or, ugh, 'linux'-like ux paradigm
<HaikuUser>
anyway, so light sources
<HaikuUser>
again, i'm changing the 'shine' property to completely black
<HAIKU-irker014>
2b4bf3eef6a2: i2c_hid: driver for i2c-hid devices
<Not-b5c9>
[haiku/website] pulkomandy pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±4] https://git.io/JsXbe
<Not-b5c9>
[haiku/website] panos 0a150fd - Replaced some beta1 references with beta2
<nephele[m]>
haikuuser check HaikuDecorator
<nephele[m]>
the uhm, sourcecode should tell you if its used somewhere
<nephele[m]>
the color prefs might go away soon from the UI also, it's too complex for normal users pretty much (especilly if one 'just' wants a dark mode or so)
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<HaikuUser>
nephele[m]: why remove color prefs?
<HaikuUser>
it's my favorite
<HaikuUser>
it could do with some polish and a few quality-of-life-improvements
<HaikuUser>
but my desktop is both fruity and readable by changing the colors
<HaikuUser>
it's already got an option to to reset defaults, so normal users need not fear
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<HaikuUser>
anyone got preferred ides for haiku app dev in haiku?
<Anarchos>
HaikuUser i used Paladin
<Anarchos>
HaikuUser or plain vim...
<Anarchos>
HaikuUser Pe is nice too, more advanced than a code editor, less advanced than eclipse :)
<HaikuUser>
i'm not hardcore enough for vim
<HaikuUser>
right now i'm just using pe
<AlwaysLivid>
Hm, I think that Qt Creator is available.
<HaikuUser>
but i'd like something at least slightly more integrated
<HaikuUser>
i remember using paladin many many moons ago
<HaikuUser>
just wondering what the current consensus was
<Anarchos>
HaikuUser no idea for the consensus
<Anarchos>
HaikuUser i develop on machines which are not so powerful, so i avoid to use full fledge tools
<Anarchos>
and i avoid qt too
<HaikuUser>
at least for the moment, i'm interested in native dev
<HaikuUser>
i'm not against qt in principle
<HaikuUser>
but i'd prefer to stay native for the time being
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<HaikuUser>
by the way, it might just be me
<HaikuUser>
but terminal seems to be the root of all of my system freezes
<HaikuUser>
it happens quite frequently when terminal is doing something
<HaikuUser>
compiling or cloning, &c
<Anarchos>
HaikuUser i prefer to stay native too
<HaikuUser>
in the future, i look forward to getting to know all of you well
<HaikuUser>
i have lots and lots of questions
<HaikuUser>
please tolerate me in the meantime
<AlwaysLivid>
you're fine! it's not like we don't have to tolerate you or the only alternative would be the project dying out when we do :D
<AlwaysLivid>
excuse my slightly existential humor right there, but yeah, questions are very much fine!
<HaikuUser>
you say that now
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<HaikuUser>
i am very opinionated
<AlwaysLivid>
don't let imposter syndrome and you being worried about your innate curiosity being a hassle get in the way, it's counterproductive
<HaikuUser>
but i promise i will always have a reason for my opinions
<AlwaysLivid>
i throw a lot of random ideas in the ground and people here are okay with it, you're at least in a much better position than I am :D
<HaikuUser>
like i said before, i've been following haiku for more than a decade
<HaikuUser>
i'm finally in a position where i feel i can start contributing
<AlwaysLivid>
well, it's good to feel comfortable
<HaikuUser>
i've seen too many promising projects get run into the ground
<AlwaysLivid>
and you're currently worried about the current course i see
<HaikuUser>
haiku for me represents something of a clean slate
<HaikuUser>
a chance to create something truly special
<AlwaysLivid>
our most urgent problem regarding UI/UX happens to be the installer, btw.
<HaikuUser>
oh?
<AlwaysLivid>
but that's bigger fish that nobody seems to be wanting to touch, even with a stick
<HaikuUser>
in what way?
<AlwaysLivid>
you know that thing where installers of other systems allow the user not to break their bootloader, dual boot, and NOT do manual partitioning?p
<AlwaysLivid>
we don't have that.
<HaikuUser>
lol
<AlwaysLivid>
bfs partitions also can't be resized, according to pulko there has been a change in gerrit for the past 8 years that nobody has managed to test properly yet
<HaikuUser>
i see what you're saying
<HaikuUser>
again, i can't speak to the low-level specifics
<PulkoMandy>
I don't know if that's "most urgent"
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah fair
<PulkoMandy>
it's one of the thousand problems to fix :)
<HaikuUser>
but the installer for doesn't represent haiku's most urgent ui problems
<PulkoMandy>
each of us has their own priorities
<AlwaysLivid>
PulkoMandy, well, I classified it as urgent because it's been 8 years like
<AlwaysLivid>
oh well, wrong choice of words!
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<AlwaysLivid>
i seriously wish i can find more time to tinker around with this
<HaikuUser>
the thing that concerns me is the drop in ux/ui consistency
<AlwaysLivid>
what apps have you noticed that in apart from web+?
<PulkoMandy>
wait what's wrong with Web+?
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid: for example, the close button for notifications being on the right
<AlwaysLivid>
oops
<HaikuUser>
PulkoMandy: same with web+ and the tabs
<HaikuUser>
makes no sense at all
<HaikuUser>
i'll go one further and say that the whole tab thing in web+ makes no sense
<AlwaysLivid>
oh yeah i've heard of at least 3 people complaining very much about that and the fact that, "there's no refresh" if i remember correctly?
<AlwaysLivid>
i'm just passing on things i've heard around because i ask around a lot
<HaikuUser>
haiku is blessed with this wonderful window manager that bakes in the concept of "tabbing"
<HaikuUser>
and it seems to be completely ignored
<AlwaysLivid>
at least the notification thing you're talking about shouldn't be that hard to change... right, everyone?
<PulkoMandy>
it doesn't work that well for web browser tabs unfortunately
<HaikuUser>
in my opinion, every app should come with options to open new windows as tabbed windows
<PulkoMandy>
I did it in NetSurf, but when you have more than 3 or 4 tabs it becomes not so great
<Niklas[m]1>
I agree.Would be cool to have tabs as tabbed windows.I like how it's done in Netsurf
<PulkoMandy>
and I tried it in Renga (an instant messaging client) but I quickly found it it doesn't work so well there either
<AlwaysLivid>
I'm the kind of person that opens up 20 different tabs, no idea how that could possibly even be executed without the favicons or whatever
<HaikuUser>
not that tabs within tabs (dawg) can't be a thing, or even a good thing
<PulkoMandy>
but then again, I don't use tabs in other OS for my web browser, I have my webpages organized in a tree view
<HaikuUser>
but there's this inbuilt means of grouping windows that seems to be ignored, and it puzzles me
<PulkoMandy>
it's not ignored, it just doesn't work well enough (yet?)
<HaikuUser>
every app should be able to pop a new window with meta+n, and a new "tab" with meta+t
<AlwaysLivid>
do you need any more help with preparing your system, btw? HaikuUser
<AlwaysLivid>
HaikuUser, so the browser would override the operating system in that sort of sense?
<HaikuUser>
where the "tab" is a new window automatically tabbed to the current window
<HaikuUser>
tracker, for example, seems not to have a key combo or menu item for opening a new window at all
<HaikuUser>
or a context option for opening a selected folder in a new window
<AlwaysLivid>
those don't seem like difficult tasks to deal with UX-wise :>
<AlwaysLivid>
i hope i'm not wrong
<AlwaysLivid>
like, you should definitely write a patch for those
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid: that occurs to me also to be the case
<HaikuUser>
that's why i want to get involved
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah, i mean tracker does have keyboard shortcuts, that's one part out of the way
<AlwaysLivid>
and wait, let me grab the function to open up applications
<HaikuUser>
but imagine tracker where meta+n pops a new window to some default location, and meta+tab pops a new tab as i've described it to the same default location
<HaikuUser>
and context-menus for folders allow the user to open in a new window or a new tab
<HaikuUser>
likewise
<HaikuUser>
how beautiful would that be?
<AlwaysLivid>
also doesn't seem very difficult, you just have to have tracker be able to either accept parameters, OR BMessages
<AlwaysLivid>
parameters seem like a good idea
<AlwaysLivid>
particularly because they could work with terminal-related extensions
<HaikuUser>
the whole tabbed window thing was always a part of the beos ux, it just never reached its full potential
<Anarchos>
i am a bit lost : i am on a haiku x86_gcc2, should i use x86_gcc2 arch or x86 in terminal, to compile a driver in the haiku source tree ?
<AlwaysLivid>
BLaunchRoster().Target("tracker");
<PulkoMandy>
for notifications I think you're right and the close and collapse buttons should be swapped, not sure how I missed that when I re-designed them
<HaikuUser>
meanwhile, one of web+'s many ux sins is implementing tabs outside of that established paradigm
<AlwaysLivid>
This should be it, I think? HaikuUser
<AlwaysLivid>
let me check
<PulkoMandy>
Anarchos, x86_gcc2, the kernel is built with gcc2
<HaikuUser>
it's duplicated effort that furthermore runs contrary to the established usage paradigm laid out by the system itself
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid: i'm not in deep enough with haiku's inner workings for that to mean anything to me yet lol
<Anarchos>
PulkoMandy so it is normal that with x86, ld complains about libstc++.r4 ?
<PulkoMandy>
HaikuUser, for Tracker, I think what you suggest wouldn't so easily integrate with spatial mode (the classic MacOS like way we store each directory window size and position)
<PulkoMandy>
Anarchos, this happens if you are mixing gcc2 and gcc8, don't do that :)
<HaikuUser>
PulkoMandy: you mean the "zoom" function?
<PulkoMandy>
I mean what I wrote, the position and size of windows is saved in each directory
<AlwaysLivid>
wait, the source code of the tracker is under src/apps/tracker, right? seems way too small to be true
<Anarchos>
PulkoMandy i never understood all this stuff wiht hybrid and so on
<PulkoMandy>
if you close a directory and reopen it, it will reopen at the exact same place on your screen
<HaikuUser>
PulkoMandy: got it
<HaikuUser>
i don't see how that clashes with what i'm talking about, though
<PulkoMandy>
this does not work so well with tabbing the windows together or in general anything that wants to force a specific window position
<HaikuUser>
certainly, some new defaults would have to be defined, but it's not a clash per se
<HaikuUser>
the way it works now would stay unbroken
<PulkoMandy>
well it probably can be made to work, but I think there will always be compromises
<HaikuUser>
if you open two tracker windows, tab them together, then close the second
<HaikuUser>
the next time you open that window it will be the size and position of when you closed it off the stack
<AlwaysLivid>
sounds like something a BMessage could do
<HaikuUser>
that can stay the same
<HaikuUser>
i don't propose a radical redesign of the way the window tabbing and sidecarring already work
<HaikuUser>
just that they be put to more use in the system itself
<HaikuUser>
i've obviously got a lot of work to do to get up to speed with the way haiku has been engineered
<AlwaysLivid>
start small, you don't have to understand everything and you can pick up stuff along the way
<HaikuUser>
but when i use it, it's like this brilliant foundation is laid before me only to be ignored or otherwised underutilised
<AlwaysLivid>
you're allowed to make mistakes :>
<HaikuUser>
think about macos's finder and how elegantly it works
<HaikuUser>
haiku was built to be that elegant from the very beginning, it just had its life cut short
<PulkoMandy>
yes, we are in beta phase with a lot of unfinished/unpolished things
<HaikuUser>
mac's finder only caught up to what haiku was getting ready to acheive in that regard very very recently
<PulkoMandy>
but then we end up spending a lot of work just keeping the whole thing mostly working (like, updating the web browser to get modern websites working, writing drivers for new hardware, etc)
<HaikuUser>
it seems a waste to let that all go away
<PulkoMandy>
and the upper layers can't get the time and attention they deserve, unfortunately
<PulkoMandy>
if you are interested in working on these parts your help is welcome :)
<HaikuUser>
PulkoMandy: right, well, that's where i'd like to contribute
<HaikuUser>
i'd like to help keep the interface honest while the true geniuses keep the whole thing floating
<AlwaysLivid>
as i think we say a lot around here, "patches welcome!"
<AlwaysLivid>
(does anyone say that?)
<HaikuUser>
i already told AlwaysLivid my history with os x
<HaikuUser>
i mostly run linux these days, with some *bsd mixed in
<HaikuUser>
but i can't say i really enjoy it
<HaikuUser>
it's a fucking mess ux-wise
<HaikuUser>
in linux's case, the whole damned shebang is a mess, but i've still got work to do
<HaikuUser>
i would never think to suggest that haiku should "replicate" mac
<HaikuUser>
but what mac does have, at least historically, that other oses generally don't, is an operating philosophy
<HaikuUser>
i run non-mac oses on principle
<Niklas[m]1>
I never used a Mac but from what I read their proprietary ecosystem looks even more hostile than Windows.
<HaikuUser>
linux is already lost, but it is kind of beautiful as an agent of chaos
<HaikuUser>
haiku has a chance to be both politically *and* foundationally principled
<PulkoMandy>
I think UX design requires as much or more "genius" as driver writing and other low level things
<HaikuUser>
it's a different class of design, certainly
<HaikuUser>
one thing i appreciate about *bsd is how correct it is
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<HaikuUser>
from an engineering perspective
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<HaikuUser>
in the ui department, it's even worse than the general linux modus
<Niklas[m]1>
Which differences in correctness do you see between Linux and BSD?
<HaikuUser>
but they at least tend to strive for principle and correctness in the base system
<Niklas[m]1>
While mainly using Linux,I tried most BSD Derivated already and other than the Kernel I don't see any major differences.
<HaikuUser>
Niklas[m]1: for my part, there is much more consistency in the *bsds
<HaikuUser>
systemd vs /etc
<HaikuUser>
&c
<Niklas[m]1>
I like systemd,it's easy to write services once you understood the concept :D
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<HaikuUser>
package managers and maintenance
<Niklas[m]1>
pkgsrc is nice,yes.At least better than apt and similar stuff that breaks dependencys with every update.
<HaikuUser>
i dislike systemd not because it isn't generally useful, but because it isn't principled
<HaikuUser>
it does not adhere to the unix philosophy
<HaikuUser>
and it exists to serve the interests of red hat, as opposed to existing to be correct
<HaikuUser>
and it's not consistent
<Niklas[m]1>
Yeah,that's right,it's a total mess
<Niklas[m]1>
There are three different systemd/system directorys in three different places where you can put your services.And the default place is another in every distribution
<HaikuUser>
i tolerate a lot of goofy linux shit because i need to work
<HaikuUser>
but i don't like it at all
<HaikuUser>
i abandoned mac for mostly political reasons
<Niklas[m]1>
So Arch Linux uses /usr/lib/systemd while Debian seems to prefer /lib/systemd but in the end,both works on both distributions.And you can totally mix it up to not understand anything anymore lol
<HaikuUser>
principles are expensive lol
<Niklas[m]1>
Mac is a proprietary hell.
<HaikuUser>
well, it is and it isn't
<Niklas[m]1>
They even ask Apple servers every time you try to open a non-Apple application
<Niklas[m]1>
I wouldn't use it,even if I got a Mac for free.It's plain awful.
<HaikuUser>
there are plenty of things i dislike about modern apple
<HaikuUser>
but facts should be facts
<HaikuUser>
for me myself, i am interested in haiku's ux moving forward, and so i won't presume to clog this channel's pipes with a pro- or anti-apple debate
<HaikuUser>
arguments should be made according to and in context of their like
<Niklas[m]1>
You're right,this is going too off-topic.
<Niklas[m]1>
I'm just a bit bored right now and this room was the only one with new messages :D
<HaikuUser>
lol
<HaikuUser>
i'm chatty myself
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<AlwaysLivid>
One of the reasons we kept IRC is because it allowed for people joining and talking in an unauthenticated manner, nice talking to you, HaikuUser ^-^
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<PulkoMandy>
it's fine as long as you're not preventing more on-topic discussions from happening
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid, PulkoMandy: thank you
<HaikuUser>
i have another question:
<HaikuUser>
why does haiku only offer prescribed resolutions?
<HaikuUser>
and furthermore, what prevents haiku from having ui scaling?
<Niklas[m]1>
What it offers depends on what your graphics card supports,I think.
<PulkoMandy>
ui scaling happens if you change the font size in appearance preferences
<PulkoMandy>
there is no need for a separate setting, but there aer still a few things that don't scale properly yet (again, work in progress there)
<HaikuUser>
i should say, i am very far removed from low-level graphics programming; i am aiming to learn something here
<PulkoMandy>
as for resolutions, it depends on the hardware and the driver, but if you have a driver that supports it, you could set custom resolutions using the screenmode command line tool
<PulkoMandy>
maybe there should be a way to add custom resolutions in the screen preferences in some kind of "advanced" menu
<HaikuUser>
PulkoMandy: so ideally, ' font size' in appearance would be named 'ui scaling' (or, rather more ideally, not be a thing, presumably), but it doesn't yet affect all ui elements?
<HaikuUser>
am i understanding what you said correctly?
<PulkoMandy>
yes, something like that
<PulkoMandy>
I don't know if we can achieve "not be a thing". Not all of us use the same settings even on similar hardware
<PulkoMandy>
(some people have sharper eyes and want to use small sizes to have more space on screen, others can't read such small text and want something larger)
<HaikuUser>
i dig that
<HaikuUser>
on plasma, for example, i use 1.5x scaling
<HaikuUser>
but it doesn't really work a lot of the time
<HaikuUser>
macs "automagically" scale stuff, and though things do sometimes seem to me to be too large, ui elements are consistent in their physical size when moving between screens of different dpi
<HaikuUser>
how does haiku retreive resolution information and, more to the point of my question, use that information when presenting ui elements to the user?
<HaikuUser>
it appears to me to be "not at all" outside of the 'font scaling' option, but even then, what prevents haiku from being, for lack of a better term, resolution independent?
<HaikuUser>
possibly, it is as you said and purely a driver-oriented thing (that's as much jargon as i can muster on the topic of graphics programming) as i am running haiku via qemu/kivm
<HaikuUser>
kvm*
<HaikuUser>
probably not helpful for the purposes of debugging, i'm just curious to hear a survey-level explanation of how haiku decides where and how to draw itself
<jezek2>
HaikuUser: on mac they do scaling by rendering in 2x resolution and then scaling back, it's quite resource heavy (when it was first introduced it was a problem)
<HaikuUser>
though, as i understand it, isn't that a fairly common tactic?
<HaikuUser>
not to say that it's correct, per se
<HaikuUser>
perhaps just because it's easy?
<PulkoMandy>
it's easy if you have a lot of old apps that hardcode everything in pixels
<PulkoMandy>
our UI is all drawn using vector graphics, and we have a way for apps to define their layouts without hardcoding sizes
<HaikuUser>
which is not correct, surely
<PulkoMandy>
so we don't have this problem
<HaikuUser>
that sounds very groovy to me
<PulkoMandy>
so, there is the physical display resolution (changeable in preferences/screen), which for the most part you shouldn't need to touch (it will use the native resolution of your display if possible)
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<jezek2>
HaikuUser: I don't think it's much used, on mac it works because they have retina displays on everything, downscaling is still quite good at such pixel density, also it helps that their font rendering is more blurry, scaling it don't introduce much more blur unlike sharper font renderings on other systems
<PulkoMandy>
it decides on this resolution by asking the display itself, through a communication channel called DDC/EDID which is present on all displays (vga, hdmi, displayport, ...)
<PulkoMandy>
in old CRT displays it made sense to switch to other resolutions, but on modern tech it doesn't
<jezek2>
HaikuUser: though it seems GNOME (or at least Ubuntu) has this style of scaling (but it's quite meh on a low-dpi display :)
<PulkoMandy>
and then, there's the "font size" and normally all UI elements should use that as a reference to know how big they should be
<PulkoMandy>
one missing part here is setting that "font size" to a good default value for the display used
<HaikuUser>
why poll font size for that scaling value?
<PulkoMandy>
because we already had that in the API and we didn't want to have separate font size and UI scale settings
<HaikuUser>
if you poll the display directly, why not use the dpi as the reference value?
<HaikuUser>
or is that not a thing?
<PulkoMandy>
yes, it exists
<PulkoMandy>
it is often not set correctly on displays however :(
<PulkoMandy>
ideally we would compute a default scaling/size from the DPI and the resolution
<jezek2>
still the user could prefer other scale anyway :D
<PulkoMandy>
and to be perfect we should also take into account the viewing distance (if you use a projector in a large room you want a larger font than if you use a similarly sized display closer to your eyes)
<PulkoMandy>
but we have no way to know that
<PulkoMandy>
and yes the user should still be able to adjust it
<HaikuUser>
jezek2: i dig that, but it does raise the question of how opinionated haiku wants to be with the way it presents itself to the user
<HaikuUser>
i guess what i'm driving at is the root cause for ui scaling not being a thing
<jezek2>
also creating a nice truly scalable theme is issue in itself
<jezek2>
I mean a theme that can scale from say 0.8x to 3x in fine steps
<jezek2>
while maintaining enough sharpness
<jezek2>
some themes just doubles the pixels once some treshold is reached but it's quite sudden jump and changes the aestetics of the theme quite a bit
<HaikuUser>
so then what is preventing the vectors from being drawn fractionally?
<jezek2>
blurriness :)
<HaikuUser>
ok, i dig that, but why?
<HaikuUser>
what is the underlying, foundational reason for that?
<PulkoMandy>
you can't draw things smaller than a pixel?
<PulkoMandy>
this is not really going to be an issue anyway, with retina displays the pixels are so small that it doesn't really matter
<HaikuUser>
right, so it occurs to me there must be some deeper reason for the lack of fractional ui scaling
<HaikuUser>
i mean, in a perfect word, all things would be user-definable and work no muss no fuss
<HaikuUser>
that is the modus operandi of, say, plasma
<HaikuUser>
but it doesn't work in practice
<HaikuUser>
in haiku's case, why not?
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<HaikuUser>
if there is indeed a specific answer?
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<jezek2>
HaikuUser: mostly the lack of fractional scaling is because of legacy reasons, basically all the systems were created before it was needed and it's hard to retrofit it
<HaikuUser>
that makes sense, but perhaps i am asking against reason for a more conclusive answer
<jezek2>
it is certainly possible to create a new system that scales well (= when you put screenshots of different scales and rescale them to match, all elements are looking the same, have about the same thickness and same position/size)
<jezek2>
I was researching exactly that idea, and got some good results when I restricted the scaling so the base grid is always on the pixels (eg. base 4x4 pixels grid, next level 5x5 pixels = 1.25x, 6x6 pixels = 1.5, 7x7 pixels = 1.75 etc.)
<jezek2>
and slightly adjusting the positions of lines so they're more aligned with pixels to make it less blurry but still allowing subpixel precision (basically going halfway between the correct but blurry result and exactly pixel-snaped positions)
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: tracker code is in kits
<jezek2>
which is similar to techniques used in font rendering to make text more sharp
<jezek2>
some theme styles could scale better with this technique and some worse
<jezek2>
I believe the windows 10 flat look was selected because of this, an empty box scales perfectly :D
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
quick question, can anyone in matrix leave the room and try joining from #haiku:matrix.org? (or likewise, join it if they're not in the room)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
i'm getting an error and i'm not sure if that's the case because i've joined the room from another alias
<shaka444[m]>
Morning all! I like the new IRC/Matrix room! In a strange way, I think this actually solved the question of how to keep the community together cross platform and open source.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
We've actually had this before, too.
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
It's just that two different people rolled their own Matrix rooms.
<nephele[m]>
haikuuser: color prefs shouldnt be in the base system
<nephele[m]>
having 50ish sliders is a pretty bad UI, ideally there would be only say an accent color to pick and whether or not it be a dark mode
<jezek2>
nephele[m]: reminds me of the horrors of KDE settings where you can adjust everything but it's really cumbersome to do that + the defaults are not great
<nephele[m]>
the rest would move to thememanager, which is a trid party tool that manages themes and such, it can do more "crazy" costumizations, that shouldnt beed to be expressed in the base OS UI
<nephele[m]>
btw, mind picking a username?
<nephele[m]>
jezek2: yes indeed, for example the awesome "delay in ms" for the hot corners feature, clearly something users should know what that means ;)
<HaikuUser>
nephele[m]: though i agree with aspects of what you're saying in terms of how such options are presented to the user, i disagree that the idea is a thing to be eschewed
<nephele[m]>
what does eschewed mean?
<AlwaysLivid>
malformed
<AlwaysLivid>
not a perfect synonym, but sort of okay-ish
<jezek2>
maybe discarded in this context
<nephele[m]>
Color costumizations shan't be in the base OS, they are in thirs party tools that can take dhapes you want
<nephele[m]>
it shouldn't be possible to break the OS colors to be unusable with normal config options
<HaikuUser>
customization at such a superficial level need not be relegated to so-called "power users", and it certainly needs not be delivered unto the sort of modular hell that plagues the likes of linux desktops
<nephele[m]>
Not sure what you mean?
<HaikuUser>
a better synonym for "eschewed" is "spurned" or "avoided"
<nephele[m]>
The ui of colors prefs is horrible now, and it goes against what most prefs in haiku do, i don't see what the point is to keep it in that form
<HaikuUser>
i agree that the current ui is bad
<HaikuUser>
but the coincept in itself is empowering
<nephele[m]>
Not sure what you mean by that
<HaikuUser>
where typical systems eschew something like colors for the sake of maintaining branding
<HaikuUser>
others embrace it to the point of duplication of effort
<nephele[m]>
Uhh, you know most other 'foss' desktops have way more random options?
<jezek2>
it could be solved by choosing a single base color and possibly another auxiliary color or some other parameters such as contrast or something
<nephele[m]>
i think haikus set of 'pick a decorator' 'pick a controllook' 'pick an accent color' would be plenty
<HaikuUser>
in my opinion, either haiku should entirely abandon the concept or emrace it as a way for users to express themselves in concert with their computer
<jezek2>
HaikuUser: well it's also very nice for programmers if the system has single fixed look, you can create custom widgets well
<HaikuUser>
nephele[m]: yes, that's what i said
<nephele[m]>
Then i have no idea why you disagree for removing that options tab
<HaikuUser>
the means by which haiku currently presents the functionality to users is poor\
<jezek2>
HaikuUser: sadly the best example (mac and ios) sort of looked like they have single theme but then they started to change if every few years and now the configurability is quite big with the dark mode etc.
<nephele[m]>
jezek2: haiku doesnt
<nephele[m]>
you are supposed to use apo calls of the controllook to draw stuff :)
<jezek2>
yes I meant it in general
<jezek2>
systems that provide nice API for creating custom widgets is also great option
<HaikuUser>
but the idea itself creates an attachment between the user and the new usage paradigm the user is expected to adopt
<nephele[m]>
haikuuser: i have a somewhat wip patch that will remove the tab and replace it with a dark theme toggle and accent color
<nephele[m]>
also, would be neat if you could pick a username
<jezek2>
windows and haiku has this, other systems not so much :D (only with hacks, mac used to have that but they removed it)
<nephele[m]>
otherwise nobody will be able to remember you :)
<HaikuUser>
because the user is allowed to exact their idea of style upon an otherwise set-in-stone paradigm, it creates in them an intrinsic investment to their system
<HaikuUser>
beos should, after all, be the platform for personal computing
<nephele[m]>
in english?
<nephele[m]>
haiku isnt BeOS
<HaikuUser>
it is like a pressure relief
<nephele[m]>
You lost me honestly, are we still taking about the color prefermece panel?
<HaikuUser>
i do not desire to be remembered
<HaikuUser>
also, i am speaking english
<nephele[m]>
Not sure how you want to work on the project then, but your call
<HaikuUser>
i am willing to rephrase myself
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<HaikuUser "also, i am speaking english"> to clarify, they probably meant 'please rephrase'
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid, please dont use matrix replies, the bridge mangles them terribly
<AlwaysLivid>
i just noticed
<AlwaysLivid>
they look visually awful but they sort of do their job?
<AlwaysLivid>
eeek, it's fine, i have both clients open at the moment anyways
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid[m]: yeah, i know, i just want it to be clear that i am willing to meet the spirit of nephele[m]'s request, but not at the cost of admitting that i did not in the first place choose my words purposively
<nephele[m]>
matrix reply fallbacks for irc is one reason why some irc users are angry about matrix
<HaikuUser>
i know that haiku is not beos
<AlwaysLivid>
it doesn't seem quite as bad of an issue to me
<HaikuUser>
that is part of the issue with haiku's current path
<AlwaysLivid>
HaikuUser, you may want to also talk about this with random users of the community under https://discuss.haiku-os.org if you're willing to discuss design details, we are very receptive to your ideas
<HaikuUser>
with nothing left to reimplement, haiku is losing its identity to the deluge of chaotic contribution that helped make the gnu/linux ecosystem what it is
<AlwaysLivid>
but to be frank... i'm also starting to lose track because there's so many ideas to cover and this is just a buffer that keeps going further down and down
<shaka444[m]>
<nephele[m] "matrix reply fallbacks for irc i"> I don’t understand
<AlwaysLivid>
i very much do know
<AlwaysLivid>
*now
<nephele[m]>
shaka444: the matrix-appservice-irc bridge translates matrix replies to a plain text message, which doesnt really look nice
<AlwaysLivid>
... it could really look much, much better
<nephele[m]>
the bridge also fails to implement most of ircv3
<AlwaysLivid>
might as well take note and try to push a PR later
<shaka444[m]>
Oh gotcha.. But IRC never look good anyway
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid: irc conversations are definitely hard to keep a deep, focused conversation going as we all split our attention between multiple topics
<AlwaysLivid>
it'd look better if it were like, shaka444[m]: "Oh gotcha... anyway" blah blah blah
<HaikuUser>
my fault for getting too deep into the philosophy of my reasoning too quickly off the bat
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<AlwaysLivid>
I'm just saying, you have a lot of small ideas that could be immediately and easily implemented, the larger ones can be a subject of discussion later
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<AlwaysLivid>
nah it's fine, I also do that
<AlwaysLivid>
I always try to explain why I make very specific decisions, including design decisions, and reviewers appreciate that because they get to understand my way of thinking
<AlwaysLivid>
and if I'm somewhat misguided or if I missed a detail, I do get very good and appropriate guidance.
<HaikuUser>
hence the importance of names lol
<AlwaysLivid>
but the lack of a continuity in IRC is really not going to you, and you're only getting the feedback of one or two or three people who may not even fully comprehend what you're saying or may not have the means to do so
<AlwaysLivid>
*doing good
<AlwaysLivid>
so you end up arguing over semantic and pedantic details in order to present your idea better
<AlwaysLivid>
e.g. the thing you said about missing buttons or that that button has to be on the other side of the notification box, that's clear and easily explained, we got through that, but much more convoluted subjects like what you're describing with the preferences is way harder for people to follow
<AlwaysLivid>
and you will have to explain that more than once if you choose to do that here, and have to present your arguments through a different medium
<shaka444[m]>
It might be good to mention in the IRC pinned message about the switch that Haiku has Matrix clients like Quaternion in HaikuDepot
<AlwaysLivid>
shaka444[m], I'll consider writing a segment about it on the website and adding the matrix link to the topic
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid: i dig what you're saying
<AlwaysLivid>
HaikuUser, nephele is likely not going to be the person, or the only person, reviewing and assessing your changes
<HaikuUser>
i don't like it, but that is how this world works
<HaikuUser>
無名天地之始
<HaikuUser>
有名萬物之母
<HaikuUser>
lol
<HaikuUser>
nor should he be
<AlwaysLivid>
look, I'm just suggesting that focusing may be a good idea, I love your train of thought
<HaikuUser>
AlwaysLivid: i'm not offended
<AlwaysLivid>
and that's particularly important and I personally fail at doing that myself, because I always switch between the 5-6 things that I want to work on
<nephele[m]>
Indeed, there are a lot of other devs who would comment on the bugtracker for specific changes
<nephele[m]>
that is the nice thing about haiku, its not a one man show, but a synthesis of ideas
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah, you'd get more feedback and you could just be done with a change in less than 2 hours of manpower, we've been talking about haiku since early this morning
<nephele[m]>
shaka444, alwayslivid: nheko is mow available too, i might try to make a neochat port aswell
<AlwaysLivid>
i love that, but it's like, woah, i wanna see this happen!
<HaikuUser>
but you're certainly right that this is not the best medium for the type of broad discussion that was underway
<AlwaysLivid>
it's not the best in certain situations
<AlwaysLivid>
in this situation, you have a convoluted and large amount of ideas that are directly connected with each other
<nephele[m]>
I prefer email for really picking g apart topics, nice to be able to pick specific segements to reply too, this is much harder in the IM way of doing stuff
<HaikuUser>
right, well, back to putting my code where my mouth is
<HaikuUser>
and so it goes
<AlwaysLivid>
yeah, e-mails and certain platforms that allow replies to specific messages are very helpful with this
<AlwaysLivid>
IRC isn't, it can't support multiple different discussion topics in a manner that's sustainable
<AlwaysLivid>
I may try to work on this a bit more later, I had the idea of shortening the Matrix channel name by publishing an alias under either my own domain or matrix.org, but matrix.org doesn't seem to be working for that matter.
HaikuUser is now known as ConditionBoy
<ConditionBoy>
i suppose this will do for now
<nephele[m]>
Don't think i'm allowed to add aliases :)
<AlwaysLivid>
Aliases always lead back to the original channel, but I could *hypothetically* hijack the link or something? So I'm not sure if that's okay?
<AlwaysLivid>
Yeah, you need to be an operator to do so, nephele[m].
<shaka444[m]>
test driving nheko in Haiku now.. looks nice!
<nephele[m]>
alwayslivid: heh, afaik that comes with putting the name higher in aboutsystem
<nephele[m]>
i might ask for that, if i can put atuff on gerrit directly
<shaka444[m]>
uses almost half the resources of Quaternion too..
<nephele[m]>
That seems strange shaka
<nephele[m]>
But im not one to argue against numbers
<shaka444[m]>
Quaternion was using around 110 meg ram, nheko around 64 meg
<B2IA>
(AGMS) I've had the debugger crash when an app failed, then the debugger fired up to debug it, then that crashed again. Just rebooted after that mess.
<milek7>
stack overflow in dwarf parsing, it seems
<B2IA>
(AGMS) That's a nice one, infinite loop in GetFullDIEName, ran out of stack.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Possibly a bad symbol table or a bug in the handling of symbol tables. I'd try to find out what name it is trying to look up.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Maybe put some error checking in the name lookup code :-)
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<gingi>
got it
<gingi>
two installations of haiku os... :)
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<gingi>
one nightly build and one is beta1
<gingi>
sorry beta2
<ConditionBoy>
what exactly is hpkg?
<kallisti5>
ConditionBoy: hpkg is like deb or msi
<kallisti5>
it's our package format
<ConditionBoy>
where can i read up on what hpkg defines/provides?
<kallisti5>
then pkgman solves the needs before installing
<kallisti5>
gingi: one reason i mentioned corruption shouldn't happen. Everything a hpkg installs is "read only"
<kallisti5>
hpkg's are mounted over the running system
<kallisti5>
(layered)
<kallisti5>
you can't modify /bin/vim, etc
<gingi>
kallisti5: i know
<kallisti5>
ok :-)
<gingi>
there was an article about hpkg at the haiku os site
<gingi>
:)
<ConditionBoy>
how does a haiku package persist its data?
<Scarecrow>
<3 hpkg/pkgfs
<kallisti5>
ConditionBoy: it's litterally a mount. Nothing is extracted
<kallisti5>
so.. package one is mounted over / providing /bin/thing , package two is mounted over / providing /bin/thisthat , etc
<kallisti5>
thing fuse mounting an iso :-)
<ConditionBoy>
kallisti5: right, but how does a running package keep track of itself between sessions?
<kallisti5>
define session
<kallisti5>
every boot, the whole mount process happens again
<kallisti5>
there are also system packages, and user packages (not really used)
<ConditionBoy>
betrween the user "opening" an app
<kallisti5>
every package is mounted while haiku is running
<kallisti5>
they aren't mounted on demand
<kallisti5>
pretty much, our package server says : You're a hpkg in /boot/system/packages ? You get mounted
<kallisti5>
same applies for ~/config/packages for user level
<milek7>
from coredump examination with proper tools (strings, grep, and sort...) it seems that it loops creating this string: IndustryDirectoryWindow::GetIndustryString(const Industry*)::<lambda(CargoInfo, CargoInfo)>::
<ConditionBoy>
what i'm driving at is where a package stores its preferences
<ConditionBoy>
that data which is intrinsic and exclusive to itself
<milek7>
symbol seems to be _ZZNK23IndustryDirectoryWindow17GetIndustryStringEPK8IndustryENKUlSt5tupleIJhtPKcjEES6_E_clES6_S6_
<ConditionBoy>
where does that get written for the package to read at startup so the user is greeted with a consistent experience between sessions
<milek7>
which is demangled by readelf linux to IndustryDirectoryWindow::GetIndustryString(Industry const*) const::{lambda(std::tuple<unsigned char, unsigned short, char const*, unsigned int>, std::tuple<unsigned char, unsigned short, char const*, unsigned int>)#1}::operator()(std::tuple<unsigned char, unsigned short, char const*, unsigned int>, std::tuple<unsigned char, unsigned short, char const*, unsigned int>) const
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<ConditionBoy>
tracker, for example, keeps track of window size and position for each directory
<ConditionBoy>
where does that information get stored?
<ConditionBoy>
and why is it nor part of the hpkg spec?
<ConditionBoy>
not*
<Scarecrow>
because it's stored in the user folder
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<ConditionBoy>
where, specifically?
<ConditionBoy>
in /boot/home/settings?
<Scarecrow>
it's been a hot minute since I actually used Haiku but I remember the folder being called ~/settings or ~/config or so
<ConditionBoy>
in /boot/home/config/settings*
<ConditionBoy>
seems to be the case
<ConditionBoy>
what was the motivation for doing it that way?
<ConditionBoy>
why shouldn't an app's settings migrate with the location of the app itself?
<Scarecrow>
settings are user-specific, not package-specific
<ConditionBoy>
what's the difference?
<ConditionBoy>
haiku is a signle-user system
<ConditionBoy>
single*
<ConditionBoy>
i need to learn to type; these typos are undermining my arguments lol
<Scarecrow>
packages are portable between systems, even if there are different users on said systems
<Scarecrow>
plus, when you update packages, the old package file's deleted, you'd lose your settings if you modified the package files (which would violate packages being immutable anyway)
<ConditionBoy>
okay, so if a user copies an app to another system, that makes sense
<ConditionBoy>
but in the context of of a user in haiku, that means nothing
<Scarecrow>
plus, if you move your user folder to another system, or back it up, you don't have to include the programs you configured, because your user folder has settings in it
<ConditionBoy>
old files get deleted, that tracks
<ConditionBoy>
so it's a question of inter-machine portability
<Scarecrow>
it's probably more cleanliness in general
<ConditionBoy>
it's not clean, though
<ConditionBoy>
in the majority of use cases, it's unclean
<ConditionBoy>
if i remove a package, its cruft gets left behind
<ConditionBoy>
for me to either remove manually or depend upon an external application to clean up
<ConditionBoy>
if haiku aims to be intuitive, intuition dictates that deleting an app
<ConditionBoy>
if haiku aims to be intuitive, intuition dictates that deleting an app *remove* the app
<ConditionBoy>
not merely removing the executable blob
<ConditionBoy>
it gets even more unclean when you consider the possibility of multiple versions of the same app running on one system
<julicenri>
By any chance, can Haiku account for overscan?
<julicenri>
Or alternately, allow for viewport dimensions to be changed?
<Forza>
ConditionBoy: What do you mean left behind? Like settings and custom files not originally included with the package?
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: yes
<Forza>
How do you propose that would work? Mostly does not work on any platform today.
<ConditionBoy>
not custom files, per se, except where the developer may choose to create and/or maintain files not strictly related to its executable
<ConditionBoy>
but preference files, certainly
<ConditionBoy>
portability should imply portability
<Forza>
Yea. But that could be a feature too. I. E. Remove and install files while keeping settings.
<ConditionBoy>
true
<ConditionBoy>
i guess it's a matter of perspective
<Forza>
I guess an "uninstall" should provide the user with some choices?
<ConditionBoy>
but i would argue that in the majority of use cases, true portability would be the more desirable default
<ConditionBoy>
if by "uninstall" you mean a separate program to govern the goings-on of the system, then i disagree
<ConditionBoy>
at least in regards to such a program as would be transparent to the user
<ConditionBoy>
in all other cases, i think most people would expect deleting an app to mean exactly that
<Forza>
Perhaps. I am using portable apps in other places and sometimes they can provide an option to store settings in <user> dir or in <executable> dir. Which would be "correct". Not sure that can be globally forced or decide.
<ConditionBoy>
can you give a specific example?
<ConditionBoy>
i agree with you for certain classes of apps
<Forza>
On Windows there is often an uninstall process installed with the application that takes care of these things. (not that it always works well)
<ConditionBoy>
and i think it should be up to those classes of apps to offer such an option
<ConditionBoy>
but as a default, i feel true roaming portability should be the default operation
<ConditionBoy>
because it remains more 1:1 to what the user expects of the way the physical world works
<ConditionBoy>
in real life, if i decide i no longer want a table, and i raze it into oblivion, it is only ever a disappointment should i discover that the table has left behind some part of itself of its own accord
<Forza>
On Haiku I think it isn't possible. Packages are read-only
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: right, well, there's the rub. should all operations be beholden to some other program?
<jezek2>
ConditionBoy: then you end up with a debris that you have to clean manually :P
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: that's what i'm saying
<ConditionBoy>
the way other oses do things is seldom because they are correct
<Forza>
Look on Unix systems where settings are stored in /home/user. Uninstalling apps doesn't remove them
<ConditionBoy>
a deleted table should be deleted, wholly and entirely
<jezek2>
there is no good default for this, it would always need to ask the user what to do
<jezek2>
there both use cases for leaving and deleting the configurations
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: and i'm arguing that while it is true that that is the way it's done on those systems, it is not correct
<jezek2>
there also use cases of having multiple versions of the same program
<Forza>
On Android that does happen though. apps are ro, but settings and apps are stored together and are removed when apps are removed
<jezek2>
that's where the fun starts
<ConditionBoy>
in serv-space, sure, there is some semblance of an argument there
<ConditionBoy>
but in userspace, it makes no sense
<jezek2>
not even sure if haiku supports installing multiple versions of the same application?
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: exactly
<ConditionBoy>
one of the few things that android got right
<Forza>
GuixSD maybe? Not sure how it deals with app settings
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: certainly, to some degree, it does
<ConditionBoy>
it must, because i am sitting here running multiple versions of multiple apps
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<ConditionBoy>
though my personal version do not show up in the deskbar
<ConditionBoy>
\presumably because they are not sitting in the right folder
<ConditionBoy>
though i would argue thast that, too, is not correct
<jezek2>
ConditionBoy: and both are .hpkg files? not sure how that would work if it would be mapped to the same place
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: presumably,m they would have to have different names to sit in the same folder
<ConditionBoy>
but i'm sitting here screwing around with haiku apps and yeah, an executable is an executable
<jezek2>
so basically the packages would need to be created that way
<Scarecrow>
an executable is not a package, though
<ConditionBoy>
ok
<jezek2>
I'm thinking about this for my software (development tools) when I feel would be desirable to have that ability
<ConditionBoy>
i am ignorant of the finer details, hence my line of questioning
<jezek2>
something like program-1.0, program-1.1 as name, and some package program that depends on the latest version or something :D
<jezek2>
but perhaps nobody cares anyway
<ConditionBoy>
when i git clone haiku, mess around with an app, jam that app, then run it from the generated directory, is that different from the app that shipped with haiku?
<Scarecrow>
it's not packaged
<ConditionBoy>
so what benbefit does the packaging serve?
<ConditionBoy>
benefit*
<ConditionBoy>
balls, i can't type
<ConditionBoy>
i blame my keyboard
<ConditionBoy>
i'm trying to read up on it, but i'm not seeing exactly what purpose packaging serves
<Forza>
You don't have to install it. It is a self contained filesystem with all its files
<jezek2>
streamlined installation, you can't accidentally damage it as it's read only, you can have it in a repository and thus autoupdated
<ConditionBoy>
okay, then so far i dopn't think i'm misunderstanding the crux of the matter
<ConditionBoy>
what function does "installing" an application serve?
<jezek2>
also it puts it in the menus
<Forza>
File associations perhaps?
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: yeah, but how is that defined by the spec?
<gingi>
im missing an autoclean option like apt it does
<jezek2>
I think just by placing a symlink to some directory or something
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: yeah, but how is that defined by the spec?
<ConditionBoy>
and furthermore, why should that be necessary?
<Forza>
Yes
<Forza>
Perhaps an autodetection would be enough
<gingi>
yes...
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: right, so presumably it's a question of system resources, whereby we can check one specific directory and assume/trust/depend that all things we need to populate menues &c. show up in that directory
<jezek2>
hard to tell, personally I think it would be better if user did these things manually only for favorite apps, it is then more personal and the list is meaningful for the user (unlike for example start menu in windows which has ton of crap)
<ConditionBoy>
then on the one hand, the incapacity of an app to truly remove itself shines truly brightly
<Forza>
Unless install steps are logged and can be undoed/rolled back
<ConditionBoy>
and on the other, it draws into question why that shoulds be the case
<ConditionBoy>
and whether or not it should function differently
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<jezek2>
hmm didn't the classic MacOS put settings into resource fork of the application or something?
<jezek2>
so for user the application was just one entity
<Forza>
Custom start menu entries doesn't mean no autodetection of apps into a global list (from which the custom menu can be built from) for example
<jezek2>
and if removed, it was gone with the settings too, and I think the settings didn't copy, but not sure, I didn't experienced resource forks myself
<ConditionBoy>
i can't speak to how things work in windows
<ConditionBoy>
but i can say that the linux .desktop file way of doing things is ridiculous
<jezek2>
but I liked playing with classic MacOS in an emulator, such a clean system :)
<jezek2>
and quite usable if it had working more modern applications :D
<jezek2>
ConditionBoy: what isn't in linux, esp. a modern one
<ConditionBoy>
by classic mac, do you mean 9?
<jezek2>
I've tested system 7.5, not sure what was added in the later versions
<jezek2>
I think some bloat mostly :P
<nephele[m]>
conditionboy: window size for tracker is stored in the dir as attribute
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<nephele[m]>
packaging apps is done for distribution, all buildin apps are in haiku.hpkg, not some app-specific one
<nephele[m]>
the 'cool' way to store settings is to hse a flattened BMessage and go with ~/config/settings/%appname% though technically if the apps mime signature was used instead it would be possible to detect this automatically and offer it for cleaning
<nephele[m]>
the problem there is that uninstalling packages is badly defined, you can pretty much always reboot to an earlier state of haiku (which is a boot with a different set of packages that are active), and it would be pretty unexpected to loose config there
<jezek2>
or perhaps some path patterns could be stored directly in the .hpkg for such cleanup
<nephele[m]>
The current way deskbar entries work is a bit of a hack, it could be improved to check a ressource or an atribute instead
<jezek2>
any such cleanup should ask user though
<jezek2>
never do it automatically
<nephele[m]>
More questions is usually a bad thing, gives the user more room to make mistakes
<jezek2>
as that is a sure way to loose important data otherwise
<nephele[m]>
personally i think it should not be neccesary to clean config anyhow :)
<jezek2>
or perhaps move it to a trash
<jezek2>
but still it's not great either way
<nephele[m]>
that would interact pretty bad with the package states aswell
<jezek2>
well sometimes depending on the application it could get into gigabytes
<jezek2>
yeah just leaving it there is the safest option
<jezek2>
the only downside is some wasted space (usually minimal)
<jezek2>
otherwise it has only upsides, when the apps is reinstalled it gets the same settings, and a power user can always clean it manually
<nephele[m]>
you can also mount packages to different trees, so its not even neccesary to change the normal system state to use that
<jezek2>
on the other hand such approach (in extreme such as windows) leads to an opinion that windows needs to be reinstalled every few months or something like that
<jezek2>
which was always funny to me because I never had problem with windows getting bloated or needing any reinstall
<nephele[m]>
Windows registry is hard to understand and hard to maintain :)
<jezek2>
I don't think I've ever reinstalled windows for such reasons, all worked well for years with the initial installation
<nephele[m]>
windows tends to slow down with time for no (user discernable) reason, so such attitutes are to be expected
<jezek2>
but then I don't click on everything like some users tend to :)
<jezek2>
never was a case for me
<jezek2>
maybe one of the reason is that one of the first thing after an installation I always did was to disable updates, that saves from a lot of unexpected things :)
<jezek2>
it was quite horror to use windows with updates on some other computers, not sure why people tolerate that
<jezek2>
and also reading from the news how microsoft from time to time screws up some update and it deletes user data
<Forza>
"Disk cleanup wizard" like in Windows... Ha. Well why not?
<milek7>
windows update was some special thing, how to make updating longer than reinstalling system..
<Forza>
.. Not that haiku updates always work perfectly either ;)
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<milek7>
then instead of fixing it they just realized they can release new version every half a year, and move old one into C:\Windows.old :D
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<nephele[m]>
installing sims2 sometimes took less time than windows update :)
<nephele[m]>
forza: i think the term wizard sums up ms way of comptuing pretty well, stuff works because of magic and you arent expected to understand it or be able to fix it ;)
<Forza>
I agree there
<Forza>
Though the Nullsoft installer is pretty ok
<Forza>
I think it usually asks if it should remove left-overs
<Forza>
Though the question on user files/settings is a hard one. I guess Android is best so far in this regard. OTOH Android is limited in usability and scope compared to a full desktop.
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<nephele>
forza: i disagree, android removes files on deinstall sometimes and sometimes it doesn't, it's not really obvious to the user why and when files or config gets removed, and this has bitten me as a tech savv severall times
<nephele>
(for instance it would delete all files in the shared /sdcard storage that had the user of the app, which was neat since i exported data there... as the app
<nephele>
)
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: android is unusable as a desktop system in many ways, but not in this specific regard
<nephele>
Android is useable as a desktop in general
<ConditionBoy>
nephele: indeed
<nephele>
honestly, it works, its way too touchscreen and gesture addicted, but it indeed is quite useable
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<nephele "Android is useable as a desktop "> good one :P
<nephele>
i've used android-x86 for about half a year on my laptop and it worked perfectly fine
<ConditionBoy>
foundationally, it's tru, though
<ConditionBoy>
mostly
<nephele>
much better than gnome3 on the same hardware
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<nephele "i've used android-x86 for about "> what, android-x86???
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
i literally just enabled the arm64 compatibility libraries and it just never booted again for me
<nephele>
(that was before i was involved in haiku though)
<ConditionBoy>
as usable at least as a typical gnu/linux, anyway
<nephele>
it certainly does uri and file open handeling a lot better than typical deskto linux
<Forza>
My android desktop ;P
<nephele>
like, xdg-open on linux /really/ sucks
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: still better than windows lol
<nephele>
so much so that i just rewrote it as a shell script for my personal use, because figuring out why it would select "wine internet explorer" as a thing to open plain text files was really beyond me
<ConditionBoy>
actually, i remember the old old days of android
<ConditionBoy>
i was within the first 50 apps published on android market
<nephele>
luckily open on haiku works very well, and it is obvious to the user what it does in principal
<jezek2>
Forza: love how the applications don't have titles
<ConditionBoy>
those days were rough
<bbjimmy>
Why does ;inks on 64bit not use alt-c and alt-v like all the other apps do?
<Forza>
jezek2: hah yea. That has caught me out before
<ConditionBoy>
lots and lots of thought has been put into the android ui/ux paradigm since then
<jezek2>
but it's fun how it looks like a typical win10 desktop with all these electron based applications :D
<jezek2>
just more rounded
<nephele>
i really liked android 4.4 style
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: that's not android itself, per se, though
<ConditionBoy>
it's one opinionated implementation of android, but not android itself, per se
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
it doesn't really touch too much on the Android stuff though in that regard
<ConditionBoy>
though granted, the mobile landscape has trended drastically away from what most typical "desktop users" are comfortable with
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
this isn't an "oh you slightly modified arch linux so it's not arch"
<ConditionBoy>
and for good reason
<ConditionBoy>
typical "desktop users" could not be operating further from the concept of correctness
<ConditionBoy>
it took the mobile landscape to finally shake people from the idea that a computer was not necessarily synonymous with wondows
<Forza>
What is correctness?
<ConditionBoy>
wondows lol
<ConditionBoy>
windows*
<nephele>
Honestly, connecting a mobile device to a screen, add keyboard and mouse and have a real desktop is a nice prospect
<nephele>
but i still would much rather have that behave like haiku than like win 10 or some other mobile-ish OS
<Forza>
.. "This is a Unix system. I know this" :)
<jezek2>
ConditionBoy: I think it's good that mobiles are more accessible and are prettier (in some sense, not my preferred style) with the animations and such (though it's often used to hide the slowness in a cool way)
<Forza>
Anyone remember that statement?
<ConditionBoy>
lol
<ConditionBoy>
jurassic park
<nephele>
I really hate such latency hiding animations, too much stuff moving on the screen :)
<nephele>
already get mildly annoyed just with spinners and such
<ConditionBoy>
where all the attractions are from the cenozoic era
<nephele>
the "I swear i'm doing something!" of computers
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: i don't disagree with you there
<ConditionBoy>
what andrfoid has *mostly* acheived over its lifespan (and where ios has mostly succeeded, despite my distaste for the platform in general) is in cultivating a culture of principle and consistency
<ConditionBoy>
apps that adhere to so-called "material design" are awesome
<Forza>
I do think some animations can be useful to help guide the user's eye to wher things end up
<nephele>
ConditionBoy: in that material design is nice or that it is nice that they follow the OS theme precisely?
<ConditionBoy>
and there is no doubt that ios does the limited things it does do in spectacular, stable fashion
<ConditionBoy>
nephele: material design goes beyond theming
<ConditionBoy>
it's a whole ui paradigm
<ConditionBoy>
i have to be up on this shit professionally
<ConditionBoy>
and to be honest, i don't especially enjoy working with the android sdk
<nephele>
I suppose so, just wondering if you like that apps follow this consistently, or you like it in the sense that you think it is a good paradigm
<ConditionBoy>
but it's a well-thought-out ui paradigm
<ConditionBoy>
i think it's a good paradigm
<nephele>
I don't like it that much to be honest, i disagree with it's basic premise, which iirc was "users want to know where stuff goes"
<ConditionBoy>
thew thing that android still struggles with is that devs still do not consistently adopt it as a design language
<ConditionBoy>
people can tolerate near anything
<nephele>
It also moved from androdi4.4 which was basically a dark mode only to a very very bright mode for the next couple of years, only now adding dark mode on top, which i don't really like as someone who is very sensitive to light
<Forza>
Also where to find downloaded documents
<ConditionBoy>
but imagine having to guess how a lock works every time you want to lock a door?
<Forza>
Floppy disk symbol
<jezek2>
dunno for me the UI is quite trash on mobiles, lot of hidden actions, you must know that it exists and how it is activated, scrolling and selecting are almost the same action which is error-prone
<nephele>
I think you won't find much disagreement here that applications that follow the system guidelines are neat
<ConditionBoy>
pretty much the only things they did right from (near) the start was the ui layout framework
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<nephele>
Still stuff in apps that are different for no reason, but that could be fixed in the future
<ConditionBoy>
it's a culture problem
<nephele>
ConditionBoy: i have not worked that much with the android sdk, i tried a couple of times but the xml for layouts was really putting me off, so never got far
<ConditionBoy>
as small of a project as it is, that problem already exists in haiku\
<nephele>
i did write one or two apps with flutter later on though
<nephele>
Culture problem in what way?
<ConditionBoy>
where do app settings reside in a haiku app, for example?
<nephele>
always in ~/config/settings/
<nephele>
and then appname or appname/<file>
<ConditionBoy>
in the menu?
<ConditionBoy>
it could be anywhere
<ConditionBoy>
same in linux land
<nephele>
no, it's always that folder, what menu are you talking about?
<ConditionBoy>
iun the app menu
<nephele>
i'm not following what settings you mean
<ConditionBoy>
the culture problem is just that: people not following the culture of the overarching project
<ConditionBoy>
and that's where inconsistency comes in
<nephele>
I am not seeing that with haiku tbh
<ConditionBoy>
open tracker
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<ConditionBoy "the culture problem is just that"> patches welcome ^-^
<nephele>
Tracker is pretty much always open ConditionBoy
<nephele>
unless you kill your desktop
<ConditionBoy>
now try to acces the preferences with a keyboard shortcut
<ConditionBoy>
\if you can't, that's a problem
<ConditionBoy>
now where do those preferences reside?
<nephele>
okay, what next?
<ConditionBoy>
do the same with pe
<ConditionBoy>
shortcut?
<jezek2>
yes menus in the applications are quite different
<ConditionBoy>
menu entry?
<ConditionBoy>
consistency of menu entry?
<nephele>
in /boot/home/config/settings/Tracker
<ConditionBoy>
terminal?
<nephele>
i don't have pe installed
<ConditionBoy>
&c, &c.
<ConditionBoy>
it's a crap shoot every time
<ConditionBoy>
pick an app
<nephele>
/boot/home/config/settings/Terminal
<nephele>
same shortcut
<ConditionBoy>
the app itself is beside the point
<nephele>
i'm really not seeing the problem
<ConditionBoy>
and that's exactly the problem
<ConditionBoy>
presumably, you have tracker and terminal
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
anyone know of the gtk+ status btw?
<ConditionBoy>
in both cases, preferences are accessed via opt+,
<ConditionBoy>
that's good
<ConditionBoy>
but where in their own menus does 'preferences' reside?
<nephele>
I'm not understanding the question
<ConditionBoy>
in tracker, it's under window->preferences
<jadedctrl>
granted, tracker and terminal are very different programs
<ConditionBoy>
in terminal, it's under settings->settings
<ConditionBoy>
jadedctrl: and the concept of user preferences are thus very different?
<ConditionBoy>
ridiculous
<nephele>
Well, alt+, is /standard/
<nephele>
If you want to pick apart the menu organization, you can surely
<ConditionBoy>
well yeah
<nephele>
the problem with tracker a bit is that it's code that really did originally come from BeOS
<ConditionBoy>
that's what i'm talking about
<nephele>
so it is still needed to cleanup some parts
<ConditionBoy>
why is it a crap shoot every time i want to do the same thing in a different application?
<ConditionBoy>
exactly
<ConditionBoy>
it's messy
<ConditionBoy>
unclean
<ConditionBoy>
incorrect
<nephele>
I would expect first menu -> settings
<nephele>
either named file or window or something similar
<ConditionBoy>
as long as it was at least consistent, one could justify any number of layouts
<nephele>
Menu organization is pretty unrelated to settings though, which is why i had a hard time grasping what you ment
<ConditionBoy>
mac does this right
<ConditionBoy>
but it's the same thing
<ConditionBoy>
that's what i'm saying
<nephele>
I disagree there
<ConditionBoy>
it's a culture
<nephele>
menus have nothing to do with settings as such
<ConditionBoy>
you disagree with what?
<nephele>
"but it's the same thing"
<ConditionBoy>
it is, though
<ConditionBoy>
imagine this
<ConditionBoy>
you have one application, which opens and edits rich text files
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<ConditionBoy>
you have another application which opens and edits pdf files
<ConditionBoy>
you wish to save your document in both programs
<nephele>
Yeah, i'm not seeing how this is related to settings at all
<nephele>
it's not something users can or should configure
<ConditionBoy>
so in app a, save is shift-ctl-r
<ConditionBoy>
in app b, save is opt-tab-0
<nephele>
No, it's always alt-s
<ConditionBoy>
in app a, the menu entry for 'save'
<nephele>
I agree that this inconsistents in menu organization is a bit pointless, but i don't see how that would be related to settings
<ConditionBoy>
in a daw
<ConditionBoy>
in whatever program
<ConditionBoy>
it's always the same
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: yeah, i had posted them above, presumeably ConditionBoy saw them?
<nephele>
Well, if you code a DAW for haiku, that is ;)
<ConditionBoy>
because you are performing the same essential function
<Forza>
Try autocad, blender. Completely alien UX for most people
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<nephele "Well, if you code a DAW for haik"> there is a DAW for Haiku
<PulkoMandy>
I don't know, there is too much talking here, I don't read it all otherwise I will get nothing done today :)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
and LMMS is also available
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: too much haiku activity ;)
<AlwaysLivid[m]>
<PulkoMandy "I don't know, there is too much "> it's a good day!
<nephele>
I have some time, i'll start working a bit on renga
<nephele>
maybe i'll manage to not blow it up
<ConditionBoy>
Forza: and it's a travesty
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<ConditionBoy>
if haiku doesn't want to be consistent at least with itself, then what's the point?
<nephele>
I really liked working with HAMMER of the source engine, for 3d stuff, but ironically it doesn't do 3d models
<ConditionBoy>
not to disparage ther work of people porting over stuff like blender
<nephele>
ConditionBoy: eh, you point out a minor nitpick in organization, i'm not seeing a systemic problem there :/
<nephele>
but again, feel free to patch it, if you have an eye for such things that is even better
<ConditionBoy>
but that's what i mean when i say that haiku already has a culture problem
<nephele>
Haiku has a problem of too little devs
<AlwaysLivid>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<ConditionBoy>
a third-party app gets ported to mac
<ConditionBoy>
their shortcuts aren't ctl-whatever
<ConditionBoy>
they're cmd-whatever
<ConditionBoy>
on haiku, it's just whatever
<AlwaysLivid>
I've definitely said before that native apps in Haiku should be exceptional as far as the UX/UI is concerned.
<AlwaysLivid>
I've only managed to make minor changes so far.
<ConditionBoy>
if that doesn't bother you, then i've got a bridge to sell you
<PulkoMandy>
I'm sorry but that's wrong, we have guidelines for shortcuts and I'm fairly sure apps follow them correctly
<nephele>
On haiku the shortcuts are pretty much always consistent, so i'm not really seeing what your problem is
<PulkoMandy>
and if they don't it's a bug
<PulkoMandy>
and it should be fixed
<AlwaysLivid>
nephele, I once used Hammer for a school project and I made a church, it was cool
<jadedctrl>
small patches really, easy fix ConditionBoy
<ConditionBoy>
PulkoMandy: they don't, though
<jezek2>
ConditionBoy: blender is much like VIM but for 3D modellers, and it was actually easier to use than other modellers in the past, even when you had to learn it
<PulkoMandy>
patches welcome
<nephele>
AlwaysLivid: let's make a CAD that works like HAMMER :p
<ConditionBoy>
that's what we're talking about
<PulkoMandy>
arguing for hours about it on IRC not so much welcome I'd say
<ConditionBoy>
even haiku's own tracker vs terminal
<PulkoMandy>
(buth other people seem to be happy about it, so...)
<ConditionBoy>
never mind anything deeper
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: i can argue for hours, feel free to stop me...
<ConditionBoy>
jezek2: that is beside the point
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: by the way, somewhat unrelated, but is git the only tool where we ship HTML help with it?
<ConditionBoy>
in any case, they themselves made a radical change with 2.8
<PulkoMandy>
nephele, git has an option to do it which was easy to enable
<AlwaysLivid>
do you need help with registering/getting started with gerrit? ConditionBoy
<PulkoMandy>
(IIRC they do the same in the Windows port? or some version of their Windows port at least)
<PulkoMandy>
would love to see it done more often but someone has to write the code
<nephele>
do we want to have that for cli tools too? maybe as a command "help <tool>"?
<gingi>
bye
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<nephele>
I was curious for git since i might adjust it for a dark mode aswell, now
<ConditionBoy>
AlwaysLivid: i'm working my way up to that
<nephele>
although i haven't gotten much further with webkit OS-colors
<ConditionBoy>
you have all been very accommodating
<AlwaysLivid>
ConditionBoy, got it, let me know if you need help ^-^
<ConditionBoy>
AlwaysLivid: thank you
<ConditionBoy>
i don't have any experience with gerrit
<AlwaysLivid>
no worries!
<ConditionBoy>
but hopefully i won't have to bug y'all about it
<AlwaysLivid>
do you need me to briefly run you down with it
<ConditionBoy>
(though, realistically, i will)
<PulkoMandy>
nephele, if you ask me, I'd say we should rewrite our "man" to do this
<PulkoMandy>
but other people don't agree with that
<nephele>
man has a pretty bad syntax with its sections though, if we want to copy that we have to support that too
<nephele>
while realistically we probably want that someone be able to write "help class BApplication" and the tool brings up stuff it found in our docs
<nephele>
or maybe just "help Vision" or so, doesn't have to be cli tools only
<ConditionBoy>
PulkoMandy: on the topic of unified menu organisation/keyboard shortcuts, is there in fact a place where common functions *should* be stired/accessed?
<nephele>
check the HIG
<ConditionBoy>
because maybe that can be my first contribution
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<ConditionBoy>
going through the apps, it's a total crapshoot where preferences are located
<nephele>
It seems to follow a consistent theme, seems to be "File" OR "Window", if window is there then there, and "settings" if that dedicated thing exists
<nephele>
not nice, but whatever
<ConditionBoy>
i agree that is is not nice
<nephele>
maybe "settings" in a menu should be renamed to "options" so its clearer that its quick stuff, and not put the settings there
<ConditionBoy>
disagree that it is whatever
<nephele>
but always in index 0 of the bur
<ConditionBoy>
i see it as a fundamental lack of consistency and direction
<nephele>
Then any software that isn't finished has a fundamental lack of consistency and direction
<ConditionBoy>
nephele: in what way?
<ConditionBoy>
i'm not trying to personally insult you
<ConditionBoy>
but it is plainly inconsistent
<nephele>
bugs in beta software are to be expected, i don't see this as a fundamental problem
<ConditionBoy>
but it is by definition a fundamental problem
<nephele>
Yes, it is inconsistent, but if nobody works on it it won't change, and arguing about it is pointless
<ConditionBoy>
i refer back to my 'save' option from before
<nephele>
I disagree there, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a lack of polish
<nephele>
it's labeled beta for a reason
* Anarchos
greets everyone
* jadedctrl
waves
<ConditionBoy>
i reckon anyone would sing a different tune if a 'save' function were as inconsistent
<AlwaysLivid>
i've literally forgotten about most of the things you brought up over the past 4 hours apart from the notification box
<ConditionBoy>
yeah, and that's exactly why it's a fundamental problem
<AlwaysLivid>
so it's all, as i've said earlier, as good as falling on deaf ears
<nephele>
I doubt it, you would get the same encouragement to fix this
<ConditionBoy>
and i intend to
<ConditionBoy>
so i asked what the consensus was
<AlwaysLivid>
you can't establish a consensus in the IRC
<ConditionBoy>
if there is none, then it shoudl be defined
<AlwaysLivid>
you can only do that through gerrit
<nephele>
And i told you twice to check the HIG
<AlwaysLivid>
unironically speaking
<AlwaysLivid>
because everything here will just disappear and we'll forget about it
<nephele>
if there is no mention of this in the HIG then make a ticket, there a consensus can be formed, not really from three users talking on irc
<ConditionBoy>
then why are you arguing against the very idea that there is a problem?
<jadedctrl>
no-one's saying there isn't a problem :o
<ConditionBoy>
nephele literally did
<ConditionBoy>
multiple times
<ConditionBoy>
not calling him out
<nephele>
I claimed it isn't a fundamental problem in the project, as i just don't see it as such
<nephele>
it's still a bug to be fixed
<ConditionBoy>
but it's not like i just showed up here with a big 'haiku sucks fuck y'all' sign on my head
<nephele>
i just don't see this as indicative
<AlwaysLivid>
As Pulko said earlier, everyone has different priorities
<AlwaysLivid>
pg-13, please
<ConditionBoy>
AlwaysLivid: apologies
<AlwaysLivid>
np i did chuckle but i won't encourage that :D
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<milek7>
I use: git checkout -b newbranchname --track someremote/remotebranchname
<nephele>
i added github https://github.com/HaikuArchives/renga (fetch); but doing # git checkout github/master only gives me pathspec 'github/master' did not match any file(s) known to git
<PulkoMandy>
did you actually fetch it (git fetch github)?
<PulkoMandy>
and do you see it in tig --all for example? (or git branch -vr if you don't want to install tig)
<milek7>
this is bug in sdl2 haikuports package, I think?
<nephele>
Now i have it, i somewhat assumed fetch -a would fetch all remotes...
<nephele>
and then i mispelled github :)
<nephele>
thanks for the help
<PulkoMandy>
milek7, it depends, was this from a clean build of something else? if it's from a non-clean build you may simply have references to an older version of the package in your cmakecache
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<waddlesplash>
yes
<waddlesplash>
extrowerk: likely due to a recent change, file bug
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<Anarchos>
the qrcode is not used anymore in kdl ?
<nephele>
what do you mean anymore? the code is still there but not used by default
<Anarchos>
nephele yes but why ?
<nephele>
too small
<PulkoMandy>
mainly because we were lazy in keeping it working
<PulkoMandy>
and no one needed it
<nephele>
Is aynthing needed for the spleen patch now?
<PulkoMandy>
I think it's fine. Maybe a next patch to add a setting in kernel settings file to force the font size, but that should be a separate patch and can be done later
<extrowerk>
Can somebody tell me whyare the mobo manufacturers cheaping out on M.2 slots? I mean most mobo comes with 1 or even 2 m.2 (i have seen one with 3!) but only one slot is M-keyed (NVME). Do they need too many PCIe lanes or is there any other reason for this?
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<Swift110-mobile_>
ok im here
<nephele>
excelent
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<julicenri>
Does anyone else think that the channel has been more active than usual since the migration from freenode?
<macdude22>
I think the recent publicity of the freenode migration as probably generated some interest in IRC that wasn't previously there
<macdude22>
I've seen more action in a number of migrated channels than i've seen in years on their parent freenode channels
<PulkoMandy>
so the evil plan to save IRC actually worked, but maybe not in the way they expected? :p
<julicenri>
Andrew Lee wished upon a monkey's paw, apparently.
<Swift110-mobile_>
ok im hereperhaos
<Swift110-mobile_>
goodness
<Swift110-mobile_>
I would like for irc to be used more for sure
<Forza>
All publicity is good publicity or so they say?
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Don't know if there's more chatter here, but there seem to be more clusters of conversations.
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) AGMS my stability issues here were NIC related
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) it couldn't upload >200 byte packets
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Ah, just a bum network card. That could explain a lot!
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I do think it may be the driver not the NIC but I've little else to test on
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Probably bad buffer RAM on the card.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) 100mbit cards from that era are rare
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) it can download fine
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) the machines I have with PCI slots may not take 5v cards and, more importantly, aren't even in my house
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) anyway, I got a 10mbit DEC for ~22 euro delivered from Germany
<B2IA>
(AGMS) I just make do with the onboard network card on the PPC system, and a dual Intel 1000pro for the BeOS Pentium III system (previously it used a RealTek 100mbs one).
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) this system never had onboard ethernet - comm slot II card available but I neither have it nor expect it to work in BeOS if I find one
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Ha, the network card is faster than the hard drive! 20MB/s for the best hard drive controller.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) this DEC card doesn't work in MacOS either, though I'll try a Farallon driver on it
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I've a modern SATA SSD in this, via an adapter back to PATA and obviously incapable of performing any faster than the controller
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Yes, then you run into PCI bus limits. Which is why that system couldn't burn 8X DVDs, it was just a bit beyond the limits (have to read from one device and write to the DVD, so 2X the bandwidth).
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) CD is SCSI, it would be handy to replace it with a burner to get data off, but those are harderto find
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) my x86 BeOS laptop has a DVD rewriter in it, because it was the same price as a CD burner
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) and it'll be on the PCI bus too anywya
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Actually, SCSI may get around the IDE drive size limit of 128GB in BeOS, but VirtualBox
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Actually, SCSI may get around the IDE drive size limit of 128GB in BeOS, but VirtualBox's emulation doesn't work well enough. Then I could have 2TB disk drives in BeOS.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I decided 32GB was more than sufficient here
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Well, I was running into the 128GB limit with my photo collection. It's since been moved to an OS which can handle larger disks.
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I moved to the dark side for day to day stuff after the Zeta debacle, and have got very used to good SMB support so all my photos, music etc are on a NAS
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) day to day laptop only has 128GB to begin with, and a flabby as hell OS on it. And 16GB RAM
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) back to storage:memory ratios we had in the 1980s
<B2IA>
(AGMS) I still want to use Haiku OS for my e-mail, since it has all the attributes and is somewhat searchable. Convenient to file e-mails along with PDFs and so on in a folder.
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<B2IA>
(AGMS) Should see if I can add full text search to BFS, had an experimental RAM file system that did it, with BeOS attributes being an array of words rather than just a single string, so all words would get indexed.
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<eskel[m]>
/!\ THIS NETWORK HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\
<eskel[m]>
CONNECT TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT FOR ALL YOUR CHILD PORNOGRAPHY NEEDS
<BrunoSpr>
hello all
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<B2IA>
(AGMS) Hi BrunoSpr.
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<PulkoMandy>
this one is for waddlesplash in the nvme driver
<extrowerk>
i make a ticket then
<PulkoMandy>
you may want to pring the initial error (I think using the "message" command)
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<B2IA>
(AGMS) Looks like a crash in nvme, which then caused a panic, which then triggered a debugger error and secondary crash.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) And that was started by the package file system trying to read data.
<PulkoMandy>
I don't see a debugger error and secondary crash here
<PulkoMandy>
the part above the panic is just the stacktrace of running the "bt" command
<PulkoMandy>
(a bit different from what you get from the initial automatic backtrace print)
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Looks at it again...
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<AGMS>
Ok, okay, debugger stuff on top of the backtrace. Anyway, some sort of panic in nvme, the string from the panic should be somewhere in the syslog?
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) does anyone from tunetracker hang around here/IRC anymore?
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Yeah, I can contact the TuneTracker people, CianPPC.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) TTCoder sometimes shows up.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Dane too. Though he's busy with his new voice over actor career.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) just wondering if they've looked at AES67 support at all - would more be for implementing in the OS rather than TT itself
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) basically their biggest problem of old was getting soundcards that people didn't laugh at and were supported by BeOS
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) but professional radio has abandonded soundcards for over a decade and the tech is getting cheaper and cheaper and down to the type of station that TuneTracker is ideal for
<B2IA>
(AGMS) That would be nice as part of the OS, an AES67 audio over ethernet driver. Show up as a virtual sound card.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) basically you use software soundcards. We have ~40 in use in our setup
<B2IA>
(AGMS) For that matter, TuneTracker / SoundPlay would also do audio over Internet MP3.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) So you don't really care about the sound card.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I suspect it would be easy enough to make Soundplay produce the right output yes
<B2IA>
(AGMS) At least for online stations.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) online only stations don't need actual audio at all yeah
<B2IA>
(AGMS) True, SoundPlay has that whole plugin architecture for just that sort of thing.
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) but an AES67 soundcard would be incredibly useful
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Yup, perhaps put in a bug report feature request so it doesn't get forgotten.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Nothing in the bug database yet!
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I'lll log something
<Anarchos>
i put my driver in /boot/home/config/non-packaged/add-ons/kernel/drivers/bin and a symlink in /boot/home/config/non-packaged/add-ons/kernel/drivers/input, is it the correct way to test a driver ?
<B2IA>
(AGMS) I'll send a copy of our chat to them..
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) even if their average customer doens't have a mixing desk etc it allows such things as having a logger PC recording your output elsewhere on the network
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) or offload your stream encoding to another PC
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) it also gives credibility in the bigger radio world - everything supports AES67 now. Our new encoders for the microwave link the transmitter take AES67 in with analog there as a backup only
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Is that an add-on for the input server, or a stand alone driver, Anarchos?
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<Anarchos>
AGMS a standalone driver, i am working on supporting the touchscreen of my laptop
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) trac won't let me in to my account or get a reset email
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Argh, that again!
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) lets create a third account...
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<B2IA>
(AGMS) OK CianPPC, I've forwarded it off to the TuneTracker people.
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<Anarchos>
B2IA (AGMS) a standalone driver, i am working on supporting the touchscreen of my laptop
<B2IA>
(AGMS) That sounds about right, Anarchos, but I'd compare it with some other existing driver. And have debug printfs to the syslog to see if it gets loaded, initialized, etc.
<Anarchos>
B2IA agms i did debug printf that is what i am testing : the added/removed funcitons, with dprintf messages
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<B2IA>
(AGMS) And nothing is showing up in syslog?
<Anarchos>
B2IA no
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) ticket 16956 AGMS
<B2IA>
(AGMS) You're using dprintf in the code?
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<Anarchos>
B2IA AGMS yes
<B2IA>
(AGMS) And you have a find_device function and a publish_devices function?
<extrowerk>
wanted to build the qemu6 recipe, but i got 2 kdl so far, so i gave up and just used the old one from the depot: http://0x0.st/-eSu.png
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Though that was for BeOS, but I don't think it has changed much.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Anyway, time for a snack; best of luck Anarchos.
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<ka6sox>
/)))))))))
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<ka6sox>
//) __ __\
<ka6sox>
C==/_o|^|o_\ /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\
<ka6sox>
| _\ ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\
<ka6sox>
\ .--- / /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
<ka6sox>
_/`-. __.'_ /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
<ka6sox>
/` \`'-,._./|\
<ka6sox>
/ \ /`\_/\/ \
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<julicenri>
lol bot
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<rnbd>
yeah big bruh
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<rnbd>
it's the (((libera))) botnet attacking
<jadedctrl>
this is ridiculous lmao
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<PulkoMandy>
that's a cultural thing in IRC, I guess? :/
<jezek2>
eh, expected that on freenode but not here =)
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) handy to know that *that* alternative to freenodis clearly dodgy as hell
<PulkoMandy>
I think it's not them
<PulkoMandy>
it's people spamming other network "on their name"
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<B2IA>
(CianPPC) I had assumed IRC had got too obscure for the really weird trolls
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) which reminds me, looking for old stuff on bebits via archive.org reminded me of the password thief on beshare in the old days
<B2IA>
(CianPPC) constantly asking to be sent bezilla settings folders
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<Anarchos>
B2IA AGMS init_driver with added/removed function
<nephele>
IRC won't get too wierd for the obscure trolls.. seeing as some of them are from irc anyhow, lots of people with the capabilitiy to be annoying when angry :)
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<Swift110-mobile>
sup
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<B2IA>
(AGMS) That's a good start, Anarchos. Once you have things starting to run, it's a lot easier to debug :-)
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<iisi>
jezek2: Classic MacOS, starting with System 7, had a "Preferences" folder, and uninstalling (typically just deleting the app or its whole folder) left prefs behind. But many apps stored some settings in the resource fork.
* iisi
scrolls down several hours (-_-);
<iisi>
I think ConditionBoy, having asked previously where settings/preferences (the actual data) are stored, was unintentionally confusing people be later asking where Settings/Prefercences (the menu options) are.
<iisi>
Think I read until the end of the final redirect (away from IRC) for such matters.
<iisi>
Then I see a marker saying "1 new message (about 7 minutes)" appear at the bottom of my buffer... Doh.
<jezek2>
iisi: ah interesting, thought it was just for control panels
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<burak>
/!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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<Skipp_OSX>
bad joke
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/!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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/!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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/!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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THIS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY LIBERA.CHAT STAFF
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/!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\
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/!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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THIS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY LIBERA.CHAT STAFF
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<iisi>
Sometimes, always, yey for retroactiv /ignore
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/!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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THIS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY LIBERA.CHAT STAFF
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