marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<pounce>
im curious if anybody is running with full disk encryption
<pounce>
I usually do so on my installs
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<ShalokShalom>
I am about to buy a Mac Mini and I see, that the M2 support seems not quite ready for prime time yet, is this correct?
<nicolas17>
that depends on your definition of "prime time"
<ShalokShalom>
I got a really nice deal on one, just 400 € basicially new with warranty
<ShalokShalom>
Well, I guess coding and stuff will work, but I am a bit frightened by the WIP for the installer and primary screen
<ShalokShalom>
I am computer literate, but I like to have a stable system.
<ShalokShalom>
And I am interested to run emulators, and generally stuff with some x86 layer
<ShalokShalom>
idk, I guess the graphics drivers are still a way to go
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<opticron>
ShalokShalom, there's a bit of disconnect between how the M-series hardware operate vs how we expect historical desktop systems to operate. In the case of the M2 Mac Mini, lack of display support is a hindrance for the typical user since you'd need to access it over the network, but the GPU itself works relatively well on M2 chips and should be usable. These are not directly connected things on M-series
<opticron>
machines as they are on more traditional systems.
<ShalokShalom>
Ah, I see
<ShalokShalom>
how comes the lack of display support?
<stintel>
I am running Gentoo w/ asahi-wip kernel on an M2 MBA 15 since a week and I'm extremely impressed
<ShalokShalom>
This sheet says main display support since 5.17
<stintel>
stability, battery life, usability, it works as good as my 8 year old XPS 13, only much faster and much better battery life
<nicolas17>
ShalokShalom: that's for the Mac Mini 2020
<ShalokShalom>
I feel I could stumble over the installation
<ShalokShalom>
True
<stintel>
no external display, but that's not a problem for short travels - at home I have a proper linux workstation with 49" ultra wide
<ShalokShalom>
But M2 has "linux-asahi" so still usable
<ShalokShalom>
But the installer being WIP worries me, I am probably not competent enought to so a very fine grained manual installation.
<nicolas17>
M2 has "linux-asahi" for all laptops
<stintel>
installation was tricky - I rolled my own Gentoo UEFI install medium with a cross-compiled asahi-wip kernel
<ShalokShalom>
Yeah. I was mostly asking for the mac mini
<ShalokShalom>
yeah, I guess so
<ShalokShalom>
that sounds quite hard
<ShalokShalom>
I havent installed a Gentoo, or even an Arch by hand
<ShalokShalom>
I most use graphical based installers until now.
<stintel>
depends on your experience. I didn't even look at a gentoo install manual because I've been doing Gentoo installs for 15+ years
<ShalokShalom>
yeah
<stintel>
but if you expect graphical installers, you should probably wait
<ShalokShalom>
I would be interested to dive into it
<ShalokShalom>
How is the ARM support over there, package wise?
<opticron>
ShalokShalom, the M2 mac mini lacks display support because they changed how things work for the "primary" display on the M2-series chips. IIRC, for M1 chips the primary display had a dedicated output port and for M2 chips it's run through the display crossbar and that display crossbar needs a driver to make everything work and connect the display controller to the right port
<ShalokShalom>
I assume the packaging strategy of Gentoo allows to access more than Arch without lots of additional work?
<opticron>
also, my comments are not authoritative and may not get all the nuance correct
<ShalokShalom>
And you see that the sheet says, it has support?
<ShalokShalom>
Display crossbar?
<ShalokShalom>
thanks
<opticron>
it maps display controllers to output ports
<ShalokShalom>
ah. so it has dedicated hardware to switch between outputs?
<PaulFertser>
No idea why they call them "adapters".
<ShalokShalom>
Ah, I wasnt meaning on Mac
<ShalokShalom>
sorry, missed that
<PaulFertser>
git grep "depends on USB" tells me displaylink is the only currently supported protocol, but it should be good enough for the purpose?
<ShalokShalom>
I heard you can unlock "professional" features of macOS with some commands
<ShalokShalom>
So that its not so dumbed down anymore
<ShalokShalom>
idk if thats the right place to ask, but is there something like MacPilot, just open source?
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<ShalokShalom>
Or does anyone run a Linux on top of some VM on the M2?
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<ShalokShalom>
stinel: Can you say something about the software support on Gentoo?
<ShalokShalom>
Is it fine to say, that you have the entire Gentoo software collection at your disposal? Does everything compile from the main repos?
<ChaosPrincess>
i dont think anyone compiled the entire portage tree, but most stuff should work
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<ChaosPrincess>
in fact, it at one point was better than say, arch, because jemalloc had compile-time hardcoded page size and gentoo just didnt have that problem due to being gentoo
<ShalokShalom>
thats what I would have expected
<ShalokShalom>
Arch ARM seems to be quite limited
<ShalokShalom>
Heck, I will probably just run a Garuda x86 on some virtual machine, till the M2 implementation becomes mature
<ShalokShalom>
I am only a bit hesitant, due to the bad repairability since the RAM etc is all soldered on.
<Nefsen402>
ShalokShalom: My worry is not about soldered on RAM, that's normal now adays on x86 laptops unfortunately. My worry is the completely proprietary soldered on SSD which is inherently a consumable part
<Nefsen402>
If that internal SSD goes bad, you can't even boot externally from a hard drive. Apple decided low level firmware lives on the SSD
<ShalokShalom>
hnn
<ShalokShalom>
well, SSDs break to write, not to read
<ShalokShalom>
usually
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<Nefsen402>
for cow filesystems I find that my write is much larger than my read especially if you have lots of ram for disk caching
<Nefsen402>
browsers love writing garbage to the disk for unexplainably reasons
<ShalokShalom>
I think we can find solutions to this
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<ShalokShalom>
It would also be just that part of the SSD that would be un-writeable that is used all the time
<ShalokShalom>
(if its not spread)
<ShalokShalom>
And SSDs are usually very long lasting in studies
<ShalokShalom>
I would just like to have the opportinity to upgrade
<mps>
on chromebooks I used ram FS for browser
<ShalokShalom>
Get past that 8GB shared RAM is more likely than being faced with a broken unit, imho
<ShalokShalom>
Particulary since I love to tip my toes into VR
<ChaosPrincess>
i think you are picking a wrong platform for vr
<Nefsen402>
there's also other asinine design decisions coming out of coupertino like how apparently there is a high voltage trace for the backlight going perpendicuar to an ssd line and the ssds can just kind of blow up when things are too humid.
<nicolas17>
ShalokShalom: even if you could unsolder the RAM and solder a new one, nothing guarantees you'll be able to replace it with a *larger* one
<ShalokShalom>
nice
<ChaosPrincess>
nothing against those machines, but for vr you are probably better off with the latest room heater from the green company
<Nefsen402>
And once your SSD has a literal hole in it, your $5000 is ewaste
<ShalokShalom>
Heard about such designs already
<ShalokShalom>
also by other manufactors
<ShalokShalom>
this seems like a common way to implement planned obsolence
<ChaosPrincess>
eh, thats more engineers not realizing places other than california exist
<ShalokShalom>
ChaosPrincess: I am actually considering the PSVR 2 as one of the more appealing choices
<ShalokShalom>
I dont think I can be convinced to buy Nvidia
<ShalokShalom>
but who knows
<ChaosPrincess>
red room heater then :P
<ShalokShalom>
haha
<ShalokShalom>
yeah :D
<ShalokShalom>
anyway, I want away from x86
<ShalokShalom>
I think its time for that
<ShalokShalom>
And Apple seems to implement that change the most appealing to me
<ShalokShalom>
Horrific
<Nefsen402>
apple is the only manufacturer that can give you an arm laptop despite the SSD shinanigans. So that's why I have it waiting for asahi to support M2 MAX
<ChaosPrincess>
we pretending that thinkpad something-or-whatever does not exist? :P
<ChaosPrincess>
and there is also pinebook
<ChaosPrincess>
and probably some weird chinese thing with hopefully a rk3588
<Nefsen402>
lol pinebook
<ShalokShalom>
Apple Silicon is also more than ARM
<ChaosPrincess>
right, i just looked up whats inside, allwinner a64 is a yikes
<PaulFertser>
Pinebook Pro has RK3399 but still lol
<ChaosPrincess>
yea, 3399 is not great
<ChaosPrincess>
if it was 3588, that could at least be passable
<PaulFertser>
Engineering there is so not great that the relatively slow SoC is not an issue at all.
<mps>
rk3399 chromebook was fine for me few years
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<mps>
till I didn't got m1
<alyssa>
i like rk3399
<ShalokShalom>
hi there
<alyssa>
it's nostalgic for me~
* alyssa
still uses an rk3399 machine
<ShalokShalom>
The handheld scene is also pretty sick about devices with ARM chips being underpowered
<alyssa>
(and also an m1 machine. i have 2 many computers)
<mps>
I still use this gru-kevin rk3399 chromebook when I travel
<ShalokShalom>
It seems like there is no market for strong ARM
<alyssa>
* M2 Ultra has entered the chat
<ChaosPrincess>
m2 ultra, ampere workstations
<ShalokShalom>
yeah, I mean casuals dont care its an ARM
<ShalokShalom>
Apple is special :D
<ChaosPrincess>
tho ampere did a dumb and had broken pcie
<mps>
also I used mediatek mt8173 based chromebook - acer R13
<alyssa>
powervr?
<mps>
and also arm32, samsung peach-pi - exynos5800 based, worked fine and still is usable
<alyssa>
i see you upgraded to much faster powervr hardware than the mt8173 has :P
<mps>
alyssa: yes, powervr, but I used it without GPU driver, drm is acceptable
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<mps>
actually video playing with mps on it is better than on gru-kevin with panfrost
<mps>
s/mps/on it/
<ShalokShalom>
I would rather switch to a RISC-V
<ShalokShalom>
Apple Silicon is kinda like a sane compromise
<ShalokShalom>
Particulary due to its x86 emu
<mps>
ah, I have on my desk starfive jh7110 riscv board
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<ChaosPrincess>
i dont get riscv hype
<ShalokShalom>
why?
<mps>
but it is slow
<ShalokShalom>
how could you not xD
<ChaosPrincess>
read/skimmed the reference, looks like reheated mips
<ShalokShalom>
the arch itself is not slow
<PaulFertser>
mps: RK3399 has working hw acceleration for video decoding.
<mps>
PaulFertser: I didn't had luck with panfrost on both, gru-kevin and peach-pi
<PaulFertser>
mps: smooth 1080p
<PaulFertser>
mps: decoding is not related to panfrost
<no227>
Is asahi designed to be generalist or has it a specialization ?
<ShalokShalom>
wow, Apple developer has really good docs
<ShalokShalom>
I wish I would have that in the Linux ecosystem
<mps>
yes yes, I mean not fast interactive work
<mps>
PaulFertser: maybe I become biased now because I'm using m1 for nearly 2 years now
<mps>
but again, I still use rk3399 gru-kevin
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<PaulFertser>
mps: what surprises me with panfrost is that es2gears under Xorg (without compositor) are like 5 times slower than under Wayland. I can not understand how that can be possible with direct rendering.
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<mps>
afaik panfrost is mostly developed on wayland
<PaulFertser>
Sure but direct rendering is direct. And "perf" shows pretty similar CPU workload profile for both cases.
<mps>
author is here and can explain better
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<alyssa>
asahi is my second driver
<alyssa>
the second's always better ;P
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<mps>
;)
<mps>
s/;/:/
<alyssa>
mps: anyway, es2gears under Xorg is not direct rendering afaik
<alyssa>
IIRC there's a copy somewhere in the display path
<alyssa>
and because Xorg wasn't modifier aware, it'd be a linear image
<mps>
have to add, panfrost is/was a big bonus on my two chromebooks, so thank you alyssa
<alyssa>
and linear images are slooow (due to cache efficiency)
<alyssa>
:>
<alyssa>
by contrast, the Wayland side is also (exactly) one copy, but the wayland compositors all(?) have modifiers plumbed through
<alyssa>
so we'll get a compressed framebuffer and the compressed copy is fast
<alyssa>
and since simple stuff on mobile socs is going to be memory bandwidth bound ... yeah, eliminating the slow copy means big wins
<alyssa>
there may be more issues. trying to optimize x11 on mobile hw was a lost cause
<alyssa>
i run sway on both the m1 and the rk3399 now and have no regrets about that
<alyssa>
and emersion is fantastic
<psykose>
sway++
<alyssa>
as for the driver itself... panfrost has grown a lot of cruft, idk
<alyssa>
part of the problem is that it supports a massive range of hardware
<alyssa>
mali-t628 and mali-g57 have almost nothing in common, but it's all one driver
<psykose>
blessing too
<alyssa>
and there's no natural point in between to fork off the driver since it was incremental
<mps>
yes, sway works fine but I can't change from awesome wm easily because I'm using it for long time and still can't accomodate self to sway
<alyssa>
I never got into awesomewm
<Nefsen402>
alyssa: More sway/wlroots contributors than just emersion :P
<alyssa>
Nefsen402: that was a tangent comment im just an emersion fan :)
<rosefromthedead>
good opinion
<psykose>
frame schedule when
<rosefromthedead>
ask the event loop :)
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<Nefsen402>
rosefromthedead: Thank you for working on trying to decouple frame scheduling from wlr_backend. Very excited to review that once done
<Nefsen402>
s/wlr_backend/wlr_output
<rosefromthedead>
glad to help, it's fun :D
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<ghostmars919>
Hi all :)
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