ChanServ changed the topic of #haiku to: Open-source operating system that specifically targets personal computing. | https://haiku-os.org | Nightlies: https://download.haiku-os.org | Bugtracker: https://dev.haiku-os.org | SCM: https://git.haiku-os.org/ | Logs: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/haiku | Matrix: #haiku:matrix.org | XMPP: #haiku%irc.oftc.net@irc.jabberfr.org
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<missMyN900> just put the latest nightly (140) on a USB drive. Are there any known (serious) issues?
<missMyN900> hmm I am not sure it is working
<missMyN900> I have a Haiku R1 b3 DVD in a USB DVD drive and it keeps booting from that
<missMyN900> even though I have changed the boot priority and even tried boot override to boot from the USB with the nightly
<jason123santa> > just put the latest nightly (140) on a USB drive. Are there any known (serious) issues?
<jason123santa> Yes it does not boot and goes into some kernel error thing
<missMyN900> jason123santa: I did not even see any error
<missMyN900> jason123santa: how about 134?
<missMyN900> I just downloaded that one
<jason123santa> > I just downloaded that one
<jason123santa> > jason123santa: how about 134?
<jason123santa> 134 works?
<jason123santa> I tried 140
<missMyN900> no, I was hoping you had tried it perhaps
<missMyN900> I will try it
<jason123santa> I think it works fine in my vm but not real hardware
<missMyN900> I am really looking forward to Ralink support
<missMyN900> 134?
<jason123santa> I had an older version I think 102 and it works but then updates breaks
<jason123santa> I might of tried it
<missMyN900> hmm I should probably download an older one then
<jason123santa> if you try the latest that would help me know if its just my issue
<missMyN900> well, I tried 140 and it doesn't seem to work
<missMyN900> on an AMD Richland HP laptop
<jason123santa> > well, I tried 140 and it doesn't seem to work
<jason123santa> > on an AMD Richland HP laptop
<jason123santa> It boots into a kernel error?
<missMyN900> no
<missMyN900> it just boots r3 from the DVD
<missMyN900> it refuses to boot from the USB at all
<missMyN900> even though I did boot override
<missMyN900> it must be going wrong very early in the boot process
<missMyN900> downloading 112 right now
<jason123santa> I need nightly because I am using usb wifi
<missMyN900> I will temporarily disable CDROM boot in the UEFI
<missMyN900> I need USB WiFi too
<jason123santa> I update from the older version and it breaks with kernel error
<missMyN900> Ralink specifically
<missMyN900> RT5592/RT2800
<missMyN900> the Broadcom card doesn't work with anything but Windows
<missMyN900> and this laptop came without Windows
<jason123santa> oh well I been told usb wifi support is only on nightly
<missMyN900> yes
<missMyN900> IMHO they should have focused on USB WiFi first
<missMyN900> anyone can get a USB WiFi adapter easily
<missMyN900> getting a compatible card and installing it is much harder
<missMyN900> with OpenBSD and other *BSDs you can at least always get a cheap compatible USB adapter
<missMyN900> I only use USB WiFi nowadays, even on Linux
<jason123santa> > yes
<jason123santa> > IMHO they should have focused on USB WiFi first
<jason123santa> > getting a compatible card and installing it is much harder
<jason123santa> > anyone can get a USB WiFi adapter easily
<jason123santa> Its not that easy I don't think
<jason123santa> I have a cheap $2 usb wifi and it does not work
<missMyN900> well, yes, you need to know what chipset it has
<jason123santa> but my tp link one works
<missMyN900> brand does not matter
<missMyN900> well, aside from quality
<jason123santa> it was marked as rtl8188 but it was the rtl8188ftv
<jason123santa> Not supported
<missMyN900> if you buy a Panda Wireless or ALFA like I have, you know what chipset you are getting
<missMyN900> what OSes do you use other than Haiku?
<missMyN900> jason123santa: but there are more options
<missMyN900> there are lists online
<missMyN900> one good source is the OpenBSD driver man pages
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<missMyN900> jason123santa: for example, https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-7.1/urtwn "the following adapters should work:"
<missMyN900> actually FreeBSD has imported the OpenBSD urtwn driver: https://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/urtwn/
<missMyN900> and Haiku in turn uses the FreeBSD WiFi drivers
<missMyN900> so urtwn is the exact driver that Haiku is likely using
<jason123santa> > jason123santa: but there are more options
<jason123santa> Yeah I just got a tp link and it works
<jason123santa> > one good source is the OpenBSD driver man pages
<jason123santa> > there are lists online
<jason123santa> Except that now there is a kernel error on the latest nightly
<missMyN900> is it a TL-WN723N v3 or TL-WN725N v2?
<jason123santa> > is it a TL-WN723N v3 or TL-WN725N v2?
<jason123santa> TL-WN725N
<missMyN900> v2?
<missMyN900> TP-Link is notorious for switching chipsets between different revisions
<missMyN900> 725N v2 is listed on that man page
<missMyN900> maybe it says "version 2", same thing
<jason123santa> Its no version
<jason123santa> Its just regular model
<missMyN900> oh v1 then probably
<missMyN900> alright cdrom boot disabled, trying 112 right now
<missMyN900> hmm
<missMyN900> I still hear the drive
<missMyN900> I am not liking this...
<missMyN900> I downloading 98...
<missMyN900> it is anyboot so it is supposed to boot from a USB drive
<jason123santa> It boots for me
<missMyN900> my DVD drive is being tortured by this
<missMyN900> not amused
<missMyN900> it would be nice to have access to the Haiku Depot
<missMyN900> finally, it is almost like the DVD drive is getting physically tired
<missMyN900> every boot seems to take more time
<rennj> haha, burning a dvd's on beos was just as painful...poor driver support is the name of the game
<jason123santa> > it would be nice to have access to the Haiku Depot
<jason123santa> Works for me but updates break the system
<rennj> he who has the most developers wins
<rennj> $$$ the monies is what makes a good system in the end.....
<missMyN900> yes, but first you need an internet connection :)...
<missMyN900> that is the hard part
<rennj> the hard part is living with piss poor disk,nic, access...
<jason123santa> Do I need to update?
<rennj> this fiber channel hba doesnt work!!!! my san access is slow
<jason123santa> On nightly image
<rennj> lower your expectation's then its all fine
<missMyN900> what do you mean disk access?
<missMyN900> SATA works fine, right?
<rennj> read / write speeds
<missMyN900> oh
<rennj> disk i/o
<missMyN900> as long as it is reliable
<rennj> input / output
<missMyN900> it won't be my daily driver
<missMyN900> this is an old(ish) laptop anyway and I don't handle huge multimedia files or anything
<rennj> i used beos as glorified x11 terminal for bunch of years..but it would have never replaced my unix boxens
<missMyN900> I couldn't get NetBSD to install
<missMyN900> I have had terrible luck with NetBSD
<missMyN900> except on a Raspberry Pi
<missMyN900> OpenBSD hung, not sure if it was that CD or something else
<missMyN900> I am not installing Linux on this laptop since I already run that on my other computers
<missMyN900> I want something else
<missMyN900> and I don't want to deal with ALSA and Pulseaudio and all that garbage
<missMyN900> alright dd'ing 098 this time
<jason123santa> yeah same with the pc I have
<missMyN900> jason123santa: what comment are you referring to if I may ask?
<jason123santa> > I am not installing Linux on this laptop since I already run that on my other computers
<jason123santa> Yeah
<jason123santa> > I want something else
<missMyN900> :)
<rennj> choose the best os with optimal drivers for the system, and just run everything in virtual machine,
<missMyN900> that is boring, to be honest
<missMyN900> better to just select the right hardware if possible
<rennj> might be boring but it optimal for ROI/TCO return on investment/total cost of ownership and ipc/watts
<missMyN900> optimal ipc/w with a VM, I doubt that
<missMyN900> besides, I do not run my personal life based on "optimal ROI/TCO"
<missMyN900> also, I don't think ipc/w is correct
<missMyN900> it would be instructions per watt
<jason123santa> Yeah its more fun on real hardware
<rennj> tell that to linpack user or bitcoin miners
<missMyN900> well, I am not involved in any of that
<rennj> you running 1000 machines..you might care about power
<missMyN900> and bitcoin mining is a business, so that is hardly relevant
<missMyN900> if you care that much about power, you should probably not be using Haiku at all
<missMyN900> I doubt it has optimal power management like Linux or Windows
<missMyN900> I don't have any truly power hungry hardware, so I am that worried about power
<missMyN900> not running my computers 24/7 either
<missMyN900> finally
<missMyN900> it is booting 98 from the USB drive
<missMyN900> we will see if it succeeds
<jason123santa> install it and then update
<missMyN900> not sure if that is a good idea...
<missMyN900> I just want a version that works at this point
<missMyN900> looks like it is working
<jason123santa> what happens if I don't update?
<missMyN900> nothing
<jason123santa> can i still install stuff?
<missMyN900> good luck finding hackers or malware creators that are interested in targeting Haiku ;)
<missMyN900> also, if you are truly worried, just use Netsurf
<missMyN900> it has JavaScript disabled by default
<missMyN900> I am not going to do much browsing on this computer anyway personally
<jason123santa> don't care about security in haiku
<jason123santa> mostly about just things will break if i don't update
<jason123santa> not break but be weird
<missMyN900> well, think of it this way
<missMyN900> Haiku Depots HAVE to be compatible
<missMyN900> because R1 beta 3 is way behind these nightlies
<missMyN900> and yet people using that are still able to install stuff from the Depot I assume
<missMyN900> *Haiku Depot apps
<missMyN900> and the OS itself does not magically stop working
<missMyN900> you can always upgrade when b4 is available
<missMyN900> black screen :(
<missMyN900> hmm
<missMyN900> supposed to be fixed in 97
<missMyN900> and I am on Richland anyway
<jason123santa> so i can just install what works
<jason123santa> keep using it and then update whenever the latest nightly does not break
<missMyN900> yes
<missMyN900> there is no logical reason why not
<missMyN900> but I am not a Haiku expert
<missMyN900> NetBSD also did not work without CSM enabled
<missMyN900> but another version did not work with CSM enabled...
<missMyN900> guess I should try it
<missMyN900> black screen again
<missMyN900> but will it stay there??
<missMyN900> I remember that I would get a black screen on my Ryzen desktop
<missMyN900> with b3 even though r2 had worked fine
<missMyN900> I think I switched to VESA mode
<missMyN900> trying VESA mode
<jason123santa> latest nightly works fine in vm
<missMyN900> finally it has booted
<missMyN900> does not see my Ralink adapter :(
<jason123santa> what version booted?
<missMyN900> 98
<missMyN900> in VESA mode
<missMyN900> HP laptop with AMD Richland APU
<jason123santa> i am just having an issue with it giving kernel errors
<jason123santa> 102 works
<missMyN900> what file system works well with Haiku?
<missMyN900> NTFS?
<missMyN900> ext? XFS?
<jason123santa> for the root file system?
<missMyN900> no, data
<missMyN900> would be nice if it could interface with Linux etc
<rennj> ssh and sshfs from vmware haiku vm works fine
<rennj> guest to host or host to vm...users choice
<missMyN900> finally, set up UEFI loader
<missMyN900> now it is booting from the SSD
<missMyN900> of course, I get the black screen again
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<eightbit[m]> Hello all
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<Begasus> g'morning peeps
<Begasus> nice work on bghostview augiedoggie
<augiedoggie> :)
<augiedoggie> the app still needs some work, the window saving problem was annoying me while testing the toolbar fix so i had to fix that one :P
<Begasus> atleast one dependency that was stopping it from being released is out of the way +1
<augiedoggie> yeah
<Begasus> got OSG to build and package yesterday, but that one still links to openEXR2, there are patches around that I've seen to make it work for version 3 (and ffmpeg5)
<Begasus> could be worth it to look into that
<netpositive> morning
<jadedctrl> morning netpositive o/
<Begasus> morning netpositive jadedctrl
<jadedctrl> mornin Begasus!
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<Begasus> augiedoggie, just checked ncurses6, for gcc2 the build seems OK
<augiedoggie> hm, strange
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<Begasus_32> grabbing ncurses6-6.3-1-x86_gcc2.hpkg and moving it to /Opslag/haikuports/packages/ncurses6-6.3-1-x86_gcc2.hpkg
<Begasus_32> grabbing ncurses6_devel-6.3-1-x86_gcc2.hpkg and moving it to /Opslag/haikuports/packages/ncurses6_devel-6.3-1-x86_gcc2.hpkg
<Begasus> 32bit nightly
<Begasus> checking _x86
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<Begasus> _x86 OK also
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<Begasus> heading out in a bit, on duty today at the dogschool (Belgian Championship Agility)
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<Andreasraute0211> lol
<nielx[m]> are you judging Begasus ?
<Andreasraute0211> I can't read what begasus has written.
<Andreasraute0211> and hello Begasus
<Andreasraute0211> did i smth wrong?
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<Andreasraute0211> HELLO??
<phschafft> ?
<Andreasraute0211> Are there Viruses or Trojans for this Operating system?
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<humdinger> no viruses or trojans that we know of. :)
<PulkoMandy> it would be easy to make one if someone wanted to, however
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<matt1> hello
<matt1> simply peace ...
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<matt1> hello
<matt1> an email is not sex ...
<matt1> an email is to talk about ...
<matt1> hi PulkoMandy
<matt1> haiku Treffpunkt
<matt1> ah, no begeister but ...
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<andreasdr[m]> Good morning.
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<waddlesplash> jason123santa: I want a screenshot of the kdl anyway or it won't get fixed
<jason123santa> kdl?
<waddlesplash> assuming it's actually related to or caused by my recent changes
<waddlesplash> kernel crash
<jason123santa> I can send a screenshot here
<jason123santa> Let me just load it up
<jason123santa> Because right now I have 102 on my usb stick
<jason123santa> waddlesplash, I uploaded an image of the error
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<Andreasraute0211> Hello
<waddlesplash> jason123santa: can you type at the prompt?
<jason123santa> yes i can type
<waddlesplash> can you type "syslog | tail 50" and take another screenshot
<jason123santa> sure i can
<jason123santa> the latest haiku works fine in a vm but not on real hardware
<waddlesplash> yeah
<waddlesplash> I think the jumbo Ethernet frames changes may have exposed a long standing bug inadvertently
<waddlesplash> probably memory corruption
<Andreasraute0211> are there a new version?
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<jason123santa> nope still beta 3
<Andreasraute0211> ok
<waddlesplash> jason123santa: please open a new ticket and attach these pictures
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<waddlesplash> Andreasraute0211: well there's the nightly builds of the development version...
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<jason123santa> > jason123santa: please open a new ticket and attach these pictures
<jason123santa> Where would I do that?
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<jason123santa> I opened a bug report. Thanks to all the developers this is a great os
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<phschafft> :)
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<andreasdr[m]> :)
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<x512[m]> :|
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<waddlesplash> x512[m]: ?
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<x512[m]> waddlesplash: Nothing.
<x512[m]> I also considering making special kernel driver to forward fd calls to GPU server.
<x512[m]> Implementing file_descriptor interface seems work.
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<waddlesplash> doesn't userlandfs support this?
<waddlesplash> but if not yes it sounds like a useful feature
<x512[m]> Userlandfs is designed for regular file systems.
<x512[m]> In this case anonymous fd with functions forwarded to userland server is needed.
<x512[m]> In simplest case only close() call forwarding is needed.
<waddlesplash> this sounds like CUSE
<waddlesplash> which we should probably make some equivalent of, yes.
<x512[m]> CUSE?
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<waddlesplash> x512[m]: Linux thing. Character devices in Userspace
<waddlesplash> it's related to FUSE but it's for character devices
<trungnt2910[m]> Does Haiku's `LocaleBackend` have support for thread-local locale settings?
<trungnt2910[m]> Seems like Haiku's missing a few `<locale.h>` members required for compiling `libcxx` and the `uselocale` function family sets the locale for the current thread only.
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<waddlesplash> trungnt2910[m]: we probably don't.
<trungnt2910[m]> waddlesplash: Is it possible to add a new variable like `gLocaleBackend` but with `thread_local`?
<waddlesplash> maybe, but why would you do that?
<waddlesplash> i would avoid trying to port libczz honestly
<waddlesplash> libcxx
<trungnt2910[m]> Was trying to port `llvm-libgcc` but the build instructions told me to enable `libcxx` as well.
<trungnt2910[m]> waddlesplash: Why?
<x512[m]> waddlesplash: Why avoid libcxx?
<waddlesplash> because it probably will depend on a lot of things we don't have besides the locale stuff
<waddlesplash> and, it might not be especially friendly to our libc
<trungnt2910[m]> waddlesplash: But isn't the locale stuff supposed to be POSIX?
<x512[m]> libstdc++ is a part of GCC and it is hard to compile it outside of GCC.
<waddlesplash> so if you want to do it, be prepared to have to make some really tricky modifications to our locale backend, beyond the thread local stuff
<trungnt2910[m]> Does libroot have some kind of regression test that I can run?
<waddlesplash> not really
<waddlesplash> there's some in the tests directory
<waddlesplash> otherwise, we have the posix testsuite but nobody's run that in a long time
<waddlesplash> and it's quite out of date, we should try and build a newer version from LTP
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<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 5 commits to master [hrev56142] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=d5f2742d1f28+%5Ee4d6c87ca2ae
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 78ea9ffc9b58 - arm64: Implement kernel thread switching.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] d1c3213a6dc1 - arm64: Add exception handling, handle pagetables access and dirty flags.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] e9d04b25e6b1 - arm64: Add thread exit syscall in commpage.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 444980deb187 - arm64: Implement setjmp/longjmp.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] d5f2742d1f28 - arm64: Preserve FPU registers in setjmp/longjmp and arch_context_swap.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [hrev56143] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=54036160f513+%5Ed5f2742d1f28
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 54036160f513 - EFI: Fix some mis-located files
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<missMyN900> is there any alternative way to get Haiku to use the fallback driver in UEFI mode?
<missMyN900> neither the shift key nor the space bar methods work
<missMyN900> spamming the space bar causes the computer to hang
<missMyN900> (on the HP logo)
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<PulkoMandy> the other way is editing the kernel settings file, but for this you need to be able to write the filesystem which is only possible from haiku
<PulkoMandy> shift key won't work in UEFI mode, space should work, try starting to spam it a little later after the bios is done initializing. One thing that may work is go to the bios boot menu (the F12 key usually works for this), from there press enter to start booting haiku, and then start spamming the spacebar, it may work
<PulkoMandy> but really we should do something like windows "the computer didn't shut down cleanly last time"
<missMyN900> PulkoMandy: problem is, I have alright tried to do it later but then the Haiku icons arrive already...
<missMyN900> PulkoMandy: yes, I have tried doing boot override (F9) as well and spamming then
<missMyN900> is there a file I can edit from the Haiku live USB?
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<missMyN900> hmm I I think I will just reinstall with R1 b3
<missMyN900> my Ralink USB WiFi doesn't work anyway with these nightlies so there is no point, honestly
<missMyN900> PulkoMandy: is the radeon driver broken in the nightlies? This is an old Richland APU (Tera Scale based iGPU), so it ought to work, seems to me.
<PulkoMandy> I have no idea about the "new" radeon driver, ask kallisti5[m] since he wrote most of it
<PulkoMandy> the only hardware I tried it on didn't work, but it's a very old laptop that also had many other bugs (sata not working, etc) so I didn't investigate further
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: what is the state of the Radeon driver in the nightlies?
<kallisti5[m]> Should be fine. Common issues though with it are related to using display port or a builtin lcd
<missMyN900> I get the black screen after the the rocket on a Richland APU
<missMyN900> tried with CSM and without
<kallisti5[m]> It works on early Radeon hd 2000 - rx 480 (a few hundred different cards)
<missMyN900> my iGPU should be in that range
<missMyN900> R1 beta 3 works
<missMyN900> (although it didn't on the Polaris card in my Ryzen desktop)
<kallisti5[m]> Hm. Richland is pretty old. (Which is fine)
<kallisti5[m]> I haven't made any recent changes to Radeon hd. I know others have though
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<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit#TeraScale-based_GPU it is a Northern Islands iGPU
<missMyN900> specifically TeraScale 3
<missMyN900> this was with nightly 98
<missMyN900> I couldn't get newer nightlies to boot at all
<kallisti5[m]> Did it work on r1b3.. or did it just fallback to our vesa driver?
<missMyN900> I mean, r1b3 did not work on my Ryzen desktop (Polaris card), I had to manually switch it to VESA mode
<missMyN900> so I assume that it would not have automatically switched to the fallback driver
<x512[m]> Experimental 3D acceleration for Radeon Southern Islands exists.
<missMyN900> with the Richland laptop
<missMyN900> Southern Islands is GCN though
<missMyN900> this is still TeraScale
<missMyN900> if you use *BSDs, you will learn all this quickly ;)
<x512[m]> By Vulkan RADV driver.
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<missMyN900> yeah, I doubt Vulkan works on hardware this old
<missMyN900> I imagine you would at least need Polaris for that
<x512[m]> SI works with Vulkan RADV.
<missMyN900> oh
<missMyN900> I am guessing the cutoff is GCN then
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<missMyN900> installed R1b3
<missMyN900> it is booting normally
<missMyN900> finally
<missMyN900> I was getting a little tired, honestly
<missMyN900> I guess I will have to use ethernet to access the Depot
<missMyN900> PulkoMandy: or is there a way to use sneakernet? :)
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: it says "framebuffer"
<missMyN900> in the Screen app/Display info
<kallisti5[m]> Ah. Yup
<missMyN900> is that a fallback driver?
<missMyN900> or native?
<kallisti5[m]> Yeah. That's not using the Radeon hd driver
<missMyN900> it also says 1600x900, which I am not sure this laptop is
<missMyN900> why don't the nightlies use it then?
<missMyN900> with 56098 I just get the black screen after the rocket
<kallisti5[m]> Your pci id was probably added after r1b3
<missMyN900> I wish this laptop were 1600x900 but I am pretty sure it is 768p...
<missMyN900> so that is causing it to use radeon?
<kallisti5[m]> Could you get id by looking in devices?
<kallisti5[m]> Yeah, the card identification might have been added to the driver recently (and it's not working)
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: device/id 0x9995
<kallisti5[m]> Lots of devices around the same generation with mentions of them not working
<missMyN900> yes, NetBSD and OpenBSD report it as Aruba
<missMyN900> yep it's an 8450G
<missMyN900> RIP accelerated experience I guess
<kallisti5[m]> So. The best way to help would be to boot haiku nightly, hold ctl alt del until your machine reboots again
<kallisti5[m]> Then, enter the boot menu and use fallback graphics
<missMyN900> can I use the live USB too?
<kallisti5[m]> Yeah, that's fine
<kallisti5[m]> Then collect all the logs and open a ticket on dev.haiku-os.org
<x512[m]> missMyN900: No built in drivers provide 3D acceleration.
<kallisti5[m]> (logs in /var/log/syslog)
<x512[m]> Only my driver for Radeon SI and old Nvidia driver.
<kallisti5[m]> Correct. We don't have any acceleration. You'll likely see similar performance with franebuffer
<kallisti5[m]> The drivers offer better native resolutions, but don't make anything quicker
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<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: does the framebuffer driver not support 1333x768?
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<kallisti5[m]> Unsure. Vesa/framebuffer sometimes only support a limited subset of resolutions.
<x512[m]> missMyN900: Framebuffer resolution depends on BIOS support.
<kallisti5[m]> I think older cards did this weird subset a lot more
<x512[m]> Some BIOS provides native resolution, some not.
<missMyN900> I'll eat my hat if this low-specced laptop has a 1600x900 display
<missMyN900> it is theoretically possible though
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: what is the purpose exactly ctrl+alt+del?
<kallisti5[m]> Reboot making sure the filesystem syncs to disk before restarting
<kallisti5[m]> If you just hard power off, the chance of getting valid logs is less
<kallisti5[m]> Haiku shows a process window when you press ctl alt del with a timer. 5 or 10 seconds of holding triggers a shutdown and reboot
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: oh I always just briefly press the power off button, is that okay too?
<missMyN900> that is supposed to power it off gracefully, right?
<missMyN900> using ACPI?
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<missMyN900> as opposed to just cutting the power?
<kallisti5[m]> That might work too.
<kallisti5[m]> Depends if acpi is working on your system though ☺️
<missMyN900> it should work
<missMyN900> it doesn't kernel panic
<missMyN900> and I did not disable it
<kallisti5[m]> "should be" is fine, but with that black screen it's kinda a black box
<missMyN900> OpenBSD kernel panicked on an old Dell laptop I had
<kallisti5[m]> I guess if it turns off it worked 😄
<missMyN900> unless I disabled acpipci module in the kernel
<missMyN900> wait
<missMyN900> I disabled CSM
<missMyN900> that must be why I can't get it into the boot menu anymore
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<missMyN900> I need to remove the DVD again
<missMyN900> this computer has some kind of affinity for booting from the USB DVD drive, no matter what I set the boot order to
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<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: wait, but with a live USB it won't save the logs...
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<waddlesplash> missMyN900: it will!
<waddlesplash> live USB is treated as a "real" installation
<missMyN900> oh ok
<missMyN900> for some reason I can't get it into fallback anymore though
<waddlesplash> strange?
<waddlesplash> you can enable it by default in the settings file...
<waddlesplash> fallback mode that is
<waddlesplash> or completely blacklist the radeon_hd driver
<missMyN900> hmm ctrl+alt+del doesn't seem to work when the black screen occurs
<waddlesplash> you need to hold it I think
<waddlesplash> but kallisti5[m] knows more about debugging this failure case
<missMyN900> yes, I held it for >10 s
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<waddlesplash> or maybe it's press twice?
<waddlesplash> anyway, you likely want to just blacklist the driver altogether
<waddlesplash> I strongly recommend sticking with nightly builds though, as b3 is a year old and we're probably doing a release in the next few months
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<missMyN900> @waddlesplash: well, I can just upgrade to b4, then ;)
<waddlesplash> well, if you don't report tickets then you'll probably still get a black screen on it too :-p
<missMyN900> of course, I will try to get the logs
<missMyN900> yes
<missMyN900> removed the DVD
<missMyN900> finally got it into safemode again by doing F9 first
<missMyN900> then immediately slamming SHIFT
<missMyN900> if the live USB is persistent, then there should be a ton of logs
<missMyN900> because I have attempted to boot it many times
<missMyN900> what I don't understand though, is that if I am reading that .c file correctly the 8550 and 8650 are working but my 8450(G) is not...
<missMyN900> even though they are all Richland/Tera Scale 3/Aruba
<waddlesplash> or the displayport handling is the problem
<waddlesplash> like kallisti5[m] said, the driver doesn't do displayport quite right, including internally
<missMyN900> it does have a DP port
<missMyN900> since this is a ProBook
<missMyN900> that must be the problem then
<missMyN900> it is the only logical conclusion
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] mmuman pushed 1 commit to master [hrev56144] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=6f80a9801fed+%5E54036160f513
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 6f80a9801fed - Some script for a crude convertion from Hugo to Pandoc
<missMyN900> which means that if this laptop had had an A8 or A10, the 8550 or 8650 would not have worked either...
<rennj> its an apu richland was it? radeon r5 or something
<missMyN900> A8-5550M has 8550
<rennj> i have a10 carrizo, you would better off just to doing vmware or linux/kvm/qemu type1 hypervisor
<rennj> better driver support
<missMyN900> A10-5750M has 8650
<rennj> e1000 nic in vm, openssound audio, vesa graphics
<missMyN900> well, I can get VESA graphics on baremetal too
<missMyN900> and this laptop has a nice sound chip
<missMyN900> (IDT/SigmaTel)
<missMyN900> realtek NIC should work fine
<rennj> yeah and i have 802.11ac wifi nic
<rennj> and besides haiku i can run couple other os's at the same time
<rennj> https://imgur.com/4whRsDI 4 guest vm's and 1 host os
<missMyN900> I don't have any 11ac hardware
<missMyN900> except router
<missMyN900> and mobile devices
<rennj> and it runs way better than haiku would ever run that hardware
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: I am guessing I should be looking at previous syslog?
<rennj> temp cpu 49C
<missMyN900> since syslog does not seem to be very useful
<rennj> practically idle
<missMyN900> nothing graphics/radeon related in there
<rennj> oh and the 60day uptime..you would never get
<rennj> its all about driving the hardware with optimal software stack
<rennj> why vmware just sold for 61Billion to broadcom
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<missMyN900> I don't see why Haiku would have any problems with this laptop
<missMyN900> at least in framebuffer mode
<missMyN900> which is no different from the VESA graphics in your VM
<rennj> the fan and cpu no acpi
<missMyN900> and this won't be my daily driver
<rennj> right there alone you going to stress the hardware
<rennj> for 1 os
<missMyN900> where can you see the temps?
<rennj> you probably cant
<missMyN900> it is detecting the ACPI nodes at least
<missMyN900> rennj: well, the power applet is correctly detecting my battery info
<missMyN900> so that is already pretty impressive
<rennj> i game with advanced mame on my haiku vm
<missMyN900> what exactly is the point of that though?
<rennj> infact aros-one and haiku perform almost identical when playing mame games
<missMyN900> you are literally running a VM inside of a VM
<rennj> no im running vmware-vmx on linux
<rennj> i could use virtualbox or kvm/qemu but they dont perform as well as vmware
<missMyN900> also, VMware being acquired by Broadcom of all companies is not exactly something to be happy about
<missMyN900> or you could just run MAME on Linux
<rennj> it doesnt matter this system 2019 tech..im never going to be upgrading this os
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<missMyN900> well, you do you, but that doesn't seem like a great idea to me personally
<rennj> 5.1.11 kernel and vmware player 15.1.0...im not rebuilding this system for very little gain
<missMyN900> even with Debian I am at least on 5.10
<rennj> well i can game and watch movies from haiku vm if i want, or browse the web..what can you do?
<missMyN900> a lot once my Ralink USB WiFi is supported in b4
<rennj> besides having win10 vm, linux vm, amiga vm running
<rennj> all at the same time, on 1 box
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: I am confused by previous syslog
<missMyN900> it does seem to load radeon_hd but ends up switching to vesa accelerant
<missMyN900> I am not sure how useful it is going to be
<missMyN900> rennj: how exactly is that supposed to be efficient?
<missMyN900> not sure how you are even managing to run 4 OSes on a Carrizo quad core
<rennj> you dont understand is near native speeds..once again virtualbox/qemu/vmware
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<rennj> time echo "scale=5000; 4*a(1)" | bc -l try that on baremetal vs vm
<rennj> calculate pi out to 5000
<rennj> i play games in win10 vm..cause i have accelerated 3D in vmware
<rennj> directx translated to opengl
<rennj> freebsd,linux, and old solaris also have accelerated x11 server with vmware
<rennj> i can do device passthrough of both usb and m.2 devices on this laptop
<rennj> when i had m.2 wifi pciE/usb bluetooth...i could have had 2 wifi dongles going
<rennj> letting the vm take ownership of that hardware
<rennj> intel vt-x / amd svm and iommu
<rennj> all features built into the chip for virtualization
<rennj> SR-IOV you know server stuff
<rennj> i only built and run million dollar sun solaris networks..and million dollar san solutions..what would i know
<rennj> and been doing computing since the 70's
<rennj> we use to run window3.11 workgroups x86 on sparc using WABI..this long before linux and wine
<rennj> window ABI binary translation
<rennj> WABI
<rennj> https://imgur.com/3dU4gDw 1997 slackware wine rxvt my oldest screenshot
<rennj> running winblows on linux in 1997
<missMyN900> but even at native speeds running 4 OSes on a Carrizo quad core is a serious stretch
<missMyN900> I had a Carrizo A10 laptop
<missMyN900> I ran Ubuntu in Qemu on it
<rennj> https://imgur.com/XAHJ65g 2011 on amd laptop
<rennj> haiku in vmware i gave it 2 cores
<rennj> no its not..
<rennj> you dont do it, so dont tell me whats possible
<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: I think syslog.old is the interesting one
<rennj> what do you think the industry is doing with vmware esxi, vcenter, nsx. vsan
<rennj> software defined data center
<missMyN900> rennj: "the industry" is not running on a Carrizo quad core ;)
<rennj> 1000's of machines
<missMyN900> I am sure that running an Amiga and Haiku VM at the same time is possible on that hardware
<missMyN900> but W10 c'mon
<rennj> look at 2.6.37 kernel and vmware..are my cpu's pegged?
<missMyN900> how can it be at 49 C?
<rennj> and that was 2011
<missMyN900> unless you are only idling it
<rennj> ive done ffmpeg tanscoding with haiku over sshfs
<rennj> like to see a screenshot?
<rennj> because i run optimal drivers
<rennj> linux kernel and amdgpu
<rennj> i use to run closed source fglrx
<missMyN900> W10 is a CPU hog
<rennj> i play projectzomboid and broforce in my win10 gaming vm
<rennj> guns gore and canoli
<rennj> i play bunch of different games in win10 vm
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<rennj> https://imgur.com/L0NdwRO and all the consoles snes.genesis,neogeo,capcom
<rennj> oh and my usb logitech f310 game controller passed to the vm
<rennj> there is 2 vmware-vmx process going means 2 vm's running in that screenshot
<rennj> see how idle the system is
<rennj> been using vmware when it came out in like 1999/2000 back when it didnt idle the cpu properly..100% cpu pegged
<rennj> and it ran on linux and freebsd up to vmware 3..anyway
<rennj> freebsd lost support
<rennj> before server,gsx,esx,esxi
<missMyN900> ok, but if nobody tests Haiku on real hardware, it will never improve
<missMyN900> and to me the world would be a sad place if virtualization was the only option
<rennj> you can virtualize the os: jail,zones,containers, you can virtualize the machine or you can do emulators
<missMyN900> it will probably never run perfectly on all available hardware, but if it can run well on most then that will be a great achievement
<rennj> not enough devs
<rennj> no momentum behind it
<rennj> i ran beos on baremetal
<missMyN900> seems rather defeatist to me, honestly
<missMyN900> it has come a long way
<rennj> no its reality
<missMyN900> and improved a lot in a short period of time
<rennj> just like sun solaris is dead os
<rennj> or hp-ux
<rennj> or irix
<missMyN900> Haiku can use FreeBSD and OpenBSD drivers, which eases the burden
<missMyN900> USB WiFi support will allow many more people to have an internet connection
<missMyN900> with drivers from *BSD
<missMyN900> even if there is no acceleration, getting radeon_hd to work properly will be an improvement
<missMyN900> and there is no acceleration in vmware either as you yourself admitted
<rennj> there is for freebsd,linux,solaris,windows
<missMyN900> but not for Haiku
<missMyN900> so it makes no difference
<rennj> haiku vmware driver only support limit functionality
<rennj> mouse and time sync
<missMyN900> used my Transcend USB SD card reader + a microSD I had lying around as a makeshift USB drive to transfer the logs
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<rennj> unreliable tech
<rennj> why vmware esxi no longer recommend using sd cards
<rennj> low quality and failure rate over time
<rennj> nand flash/sd cards suck compared to nand ssd
<rennj> Last Updated: 4/28/2022
<rennj> i build and run in-memory os..but i start my laptop like my car with usb key
<rennj> they fail over time..just from reads/moisture or something i would assume..cause i dont write to it but few times..and only do boots from it
<rennj> Endurance ratings alone cannot guarantee the viability of SD cards/USB media as a boot option.
<rennj> yeah i have had usb flash drives die...just from reads really
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<rennj> quantum tunneling effect also comes into it
<rennj> Preferably, the SD cards should be replaced with an SSD or another local persistent device as the standalone boot option.
<rennj> like tesla found out..beating theri emmc or whatever
<rennj> why i have checksum on file on usb and in-memory squashfs...i verify each boot no corruption happened
<rennj> VMware is working very closely with all the major OEMs to ensure that future generations of server platforms do not support USB/SD card as a boot device and that more reliable mechanisms that conform to the VMware device and endurance requirements below for boot devices are provided on servers.
<rennj> The RAMDisk option will automatically be a final resort and will be used if none of the above options are available
<rennj> hmm dram,sram..cant go wrong..but for those cosmic radiation bit flips...
<rennj> and as dram get more dense..the chance increase... ECC ram for all
<rennj> all my server in the 90's ECC ram
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<missMyN900> kallisti5[m]: what priority should I assign to this bug?
<missMyN900> by the way, based on the log I think it is definitely DisplayPort related
<missMyN900> rennj: many SD cards (primarily Sandisks) are actually fake. It is also a matter of not buying the absolute cheapest garbage on the market (and of course making sure it is genuine by buying from a reliable source, which does not include Amazon, by the way)
<rennj> sd/usb flash is unreliable!
<missMyN900> I use only use high endurance cards to run OSes from
<missMyN900> I have not had any problems with those
<rennj> do you even do server stuff?
<missMyN900> I used to have a home server
<rennj> cause i dont want to here from low end consumers of products
<missMyN900> but not high load stuff, no
<rennj> yeah home is not mission critical gear
<rennj> why do you think a bare server is $10k
<missMyN900> if it works well for home, it is not "unreliable"
<missMyN900> this is like saying that everything that is not medical or automative grade is "unreliable"
<rennj> like i said ECC ram is server gear, should be used in home gear..but people suck...
<missMyN900> *automotive
<rennj> tesla found out the hardware
<rennj> tesla found out the hard way
<rennj> what they should have done is minimized the logging
<rennj> like turning on auditing proccessacounting
<rennj> trusted solaris / BSM is turning on auditing so you can track users and what they do...
<rennj> i could tell you the file my user open and read way back in the 90's...real big brother shit
<rennj> linux has process accounting..but i doubt its as detailed as solaris had...
<rennj> unless some corporation poured money into it
<rennj> mission critical top secret security stuff like i said... zero downtime... the 5 9's
<rennj> tandem/hp nonstop gear...the holy grail
<missMyN900> ok but how is all that stuff relevant to Haiku and the average home user?
<missMyN900> I am not running a bank or hospital
<rennj> haiku isnt even in the conversation
<rennj> all haiku is is newos kernel and linux userland at this point
<rennj> not even a good kernel
<missMyN900> then why are you here, honestly?
<rennj> because i used beos
<rennj> gave them money!
<rennj> gobe productive
<missMyN900> ok but maybe it is time to move past that if you are not satisfied with Haiku...
<rennj> can accept the criticism?
<missMyN900> you can also run OpenIndiana in your vmware and be happy ;)
<rennj> i have oi system
<rennj> and im in smartos also
<rennj> samsung own them
<rennj> its solaris kernel forked since 2010..when oracle shutdown opensolaris
<missMyN900> I am not sure that "you should buy a $10k server with ECC RAM and an SSD" is a valid criticism when someone is trying to transfer a log file with a flash drive...
<rennj> smartos is SDDC like vmware
<rennj> software defined data center